Well, the Striker system RAW I might use as is for a bunch of fast NPC resolutions. Any of the PC interaction I am using the longer custom version, for descriptive medical drama/tasks and making combat more real to them rather then point tanks.
Rules Only: Traveller "deadly" Combat Rules discussion
- Thread starter atpollard
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I've never had a group with 4+ players not have someone with under 21 in the LIF (LIF=STR+DEX+END)...
CT, it does 3D at all ranges and margins of success.
Your math is incorrect, both for fundamentals and for insufficient specificity.
AD&D 1e At worst, 1d4-3 and at best 2d10+3 (or is it +4... anyway, Cavalier with Con 18)
D&D 3E RAW, no options, it's 1d6-4 to 1d12+5 (nat 18 and +2 on con, for a barbarian)
5E RAW, if rolled atts & HD, it's 6-4 to 12+5; if using the array, it's 1d6-1 to 1d12+4. If taking the fixed rather than rolled HP, it's 5 to 16. (as first level is full amount whether later are rolled or not).
Here's where the gotcha lies...
And first hit goes ENTIRELY to one attribute. So it's vs 2d6±3 (Aging, PDT rolls)
So tis vs 1 to 15, not 3 to 45. If you're dropped by the first hit, your survival is entirely at the mercy of whomever isn't taken out.
3d6 vs 15 is not usually a kill
And the second part. Do the math for 3rd level, not first, for a fair representation of typical short campaign play.
which makes those D&D numbers very different...
AD&D 1 Wizard 3d4-9 to 3d4+9; median 3d4+0, for an average of 7.5 , Cavalier is 4d10+0 to 4d10+9 (I've never seen a player select Cavalier without a Con bonus, ) so 22 to 31 HP typical,
The 5E rolled/rolled is wiz 3d6-12 (min & mode 3) to 3d6+12 for max (22.5 mean, 15 to 30 range) The array/fixed gives wizard 6+4+4+(3×{-1 to +4}) for 11 to 26, and the barb 12+7+7+(3×{-1 to +4})23 to
Whereas the average CT or MT character has had no change. after the half dozen adventures to make it to 3rd level.
Oh, and if you want deadly, same said rifle in MT can do anything from 0d to 12d damage to attributes... PER SHOT.
Yes, Traveller's deadly... more so in MegaTraveller than in Classic.
Mongoose 1e was between the two.
3d6 vs 15 (max single attribute) is a worst case chance of about 9.25%.
for a more normal army/marine type, i's going to be 8-10 att, for 83% to 62% chance of one-shot stop.
Whcih is what makes an ambush so «BLEEP»ing deadly in CT. And it's even worse in MT.
5E's only as deadly at first level; by second it's approaching no chance of 1-shot stops, and by 3rd, only the die-hard roll/roll/roll (atts/1st hd/late hd) can get a one shot stop without using options buried in the DMG.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Quite, and it's a random attribute, not your "good" attribute.
With 3D damage against an average 7 attribute, it's over 90% chance of unconscious.
With 4D damage (e.g. shotgun) against an average 7 attribute, it's over 98% chance of unconscious.
With 3D damage against a very good 10 attribute, it's over 60% chance of unconscious.
With 4D damage (e.g. shotgun) against a very good 10 attribute, it's over 90% chance of unconscious.
So, it's approaching 90% chance of being knocked out by the first hit of any normal weapon. [If all your attributes are over 9, I'll ask you to re-roll with my dice while I look...]
I'll call that deadly...
A 1st level D&D MU will sympathise, a 1st lvl fighter not so much...
I stand corrected in the lack of clarity in specifics. I was comparing the LBB1-3 of c.1980 to the PHB/DMG 1e of c.1980 as an "apples to apples" comparison of comparable games, eras and scopes (core rules).
I hear much "gnashing of teeth" about how DEADLY Traveller combat is ... and I always assumed that it must be true "BECAUSE EVERYBODY SAID SO!" In my personal games, I can count the number of combats on one hand. The only game where combat played a significant role, I was a player in a Marine Mercenary Company and everyone had Battledress ... shooting and breaking stuff was the only real point of that game.
It came as a surprise when I finally dig into the combat mechanics in detail and discovered that the "deadliness" had been greatly exaggerated unless one was shooting illegal military hardware at unarmored civilians. Frankly, I think shooting a RPG at the bouncer in a bar that pissed you off will probably have unbalanced results in the REAL WORLD as well ... probably why "concealed Carry of explosives" is banned.
The other big game of 1977-1980 (the dawn of Classic Traveller ... when these rules were written) was Basic D&D and AD&D 1e, so I compared "core rules" (LBB 1-3) to "core rules" (DMG/PHB). These core rules reflect the design intent of the combat systems - the later splat books invariably break the system.
Third level is not really representative unless we are prepared to compare the HP to the magic attacks of the creatures in a 3-5 level Module or the Final Encounter in a 1-3 level Module.
In the last published module I used ... our third level characters faced an enemy armed with "Cloudkill" which requires characters to be Level 4 to get a save [the event left a lasting impression on me].
In D&D, characters gain Levels and HP.
In Traveller, Characters gain wealth and ARMOR (which increases misses).
The biggest difference is the death at 0 vs death at -10 ... which would be a simple enough house rule to throw in there and grant Traveller Characters the same ability to get shot and live to fight another day as D&D.
With D&D both the HP and enemy Damage scale up with level, requiring a constant re-balancing to maintain drama without being boring or deadly. With Traveller, both "HP" and enemy Damage remain constant (Grendel's Mother is not needed).
In long term Traveller game in am involved in this is pretty much the standard. Lot's of social conflict, very little gun play.
I have run combat heavy games, but generally they are at the Agent/Investigator level. Knives, pistols and Brawling. With SMGs/Shotguns being the heavy weapons.
This is about adventures in polite company, kinda.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
If you mean that "illegal military weapons" like revolvers and shotguns have a 90+% chance of knocking out people in one hit is not all that deadly, sure.
An exotic TL-5 hunting rifle has a DM-2 vs cloth, DM-1 for Long range, and a DM+4 for telescopic sights, for a total of DM+1. Add a DM+1 for basic skill and perhaps even DM+1 for DEX 8+ to get a total DM+2(+3?), hitting on a roll of 6+ (72%) [or 5+ (83%)].
With a ~90% knockout on hit, the total mission kill is about 65% [75%] per shot.
Two armoured riflemen shooting at each other have a 88% [94%] chance of ending the combat the first round, by knocking out one of the combatants.
A shotgun has a DM+5 against unarmoured, DM+3 at Medium range, for a total of DM+8, so hits at a roll of 0+ (100%). With a knock out chance of ~98% it has a total chance of knocking out the target of ~98%. With Group Hits it attacks up to two other adjacent targets, so knocks out up to three targets (average 2.94 mission kills). Not at all deadly, I'm sure...
A barbarian wielding a Broadsword has a DM+3 at short range, DM-4 for battle dress, and DM+2 for skill, for a total DM of +1, so hitting on 7+ (58%). With 4D damage it has a knockout chance of ~98%, or perhaps 95% against a very fit soldier. So the barbarian has about 55% chance to knock out a battle dress trooper in a single blow. With a sword.
I guess Broadsword counts as "illegal military hardware" and battle dress as "unarmored"?
Actual "illegal military hardware" like, say, a Gauss Rifle has a much higher kill chance.
A Gauss Rifle shooting at battle dress has a DM+5 at Long range, DM±0 vs battle dress, and say DM+0 for skill, for a total of DM+5, hitting at a roll of 3+ (97%). 4D damage is over 90% knock out chance. It attacks three times on the primary target, and up to four other adjacent targets at DM-3 (72% hit).
Each primary attack has about a 90% knockout chance, so surviving all three is about 0.1% chance. If all three attack hit (91%) the target takes 12D damage and is almost certainly dead.
So, the attack has a 99.9% knockout chance, well over 90% kill chance, and knocks out another ~2.5 adjacent targets.
Is a 90% kill chance against battle dress considered "deadly", or is that "greatly exaggerated"?
An LMG firing at BD at VLong is DM-3 for BD, DM±0 for VLong, DM+2 for skill, for a total of DM-1, hitting at 9+ (28%). One burst is three attacks on the primary target, so about 63% chance of hitting once or more. With 3D damage against very fit soldiers (attr ~9) it has a 74% knockout chance. Total about 47% chance to hit and knock out.
Firing 5 bursts, it will knock out an average of 2.35 BD troopers per round, and perform up to 20 secondary attacks on adjacent targets, knocking out another BD trooper with a bit of luck.
Is knocking out about three BD troopers per round with a man-portable TL-6 weapon enough to be called deadly?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
A group of BD troops with grav belts comes flying into a village. A local farmer, annoyed at the noise, takes a potshot with a shotgun:
DM-5 for BD, DM+3 for range, DM+2 for flying, DM+1 for skill, total DM+1. Hit at a roll of 7+ (58%), 4D damage so ~95% knockout chance (fit soldiers). Three attacks against separate targets, so an average of 3 × 58% × 95% ≈ 1.65 troopers crash to the ground...
Farmer with shotgun knocks out one or two BD troopers per round. Not at all deadly...
DM-5 for BD, DM+3 for range, DM+2 for flying, DM+1 for skill, total DM+1. Hit at a roll of 7+ (58%), 4D damage so ~95% knockout chance (fit soldiers). Three attacks against separate targets, so an average of 3 × 58% × 95% ≈ 1.65 troopers crash to the ground...
Farmer with shotgun knocks out one or two BD troopers per round. Not at all deadly...
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Two adventurers with pistols and leather jackets shoot it out:
DM+1 (Jack), DM+2 (range), DM+1 (skill), for a total of DM+4.
They hit at a roll of 4+ (92%).
Knockout chance 90% for 3D damage.
The first to draw has a 83% chance of knocking out the other immediately.
There is a 3% chance of needing a second round of combat.
DM+1 (Jack), DM+2 (range), DM+1 (skill), for a total of DM+4.
They hit at a roll of 4+ (92%).
Knockout chance 90% for 3D damage.
The first to draw has a 83% chance of knocking out the other immediately.
There is a 3% chance of needing a second round of combat.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
The GOALPOSTS seem to have moved. Being knocked out is now equivalent to being killed (the typical definition of deadly).
So tell me, when a fireball explodes on a group of adventurers, is that too dangerous or do they just shrug it off and fight on, merely annoyed at the inconvenience? Is a shrug of annoyance really the desired outcome of a shotgun blast at short range?
For what little it might be worth, I never liked the first shot rule … too much effort for too little gain (just like the range AND armor matrix tables). I prefer something simpler with an END check to make the unconscious results more “swingy” … but that has nothing to do with “deadly” combat, just “fussy” rules mechanics (a CT trait).
So tell me, when a fireball explodes on a group of adventurers, is that too dangerous or do they just shrug it off and fight on, merely annoyed at the inconvenience? Is a shrug of annoyance really the desired outcome of a shotgun blast at short range?
For what little it might be worth, I never liked the first shot rule … too much effort for too little gain (just like the range AND armor matrix tables). I prefer something simpler with an END check to make the unconscious results more “swingy” … but that has nothing to do with “deadly” combat, just “fussy” rules mechanics (a CT trait).
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Surprise, should, in theory, allow the attacker time to coordinate and call shots.
Also, fire resistance, area effect, might be a worthy precaution.
Also, fire resistance, area effect, might be a worthy precaution.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
If being knocked out doesn't kill you, the coup de grâce almost certainly will ...
Being incapacitated makes it difficult to defend yourself.
In AD&D 1e (the other dominant game of the 1977-1980 CT formative rules era), it was not uncommon for a character to be reduced to ZERO or NEGATIVE HP and a Cleric to come running as a "medic" to heal them so they could rejoin the combat.If being knocked out doesn't kill you, the coup de grâce almost certainly will ...
Being incapacitated makes it difficult to defend yourself.
By this new metric, we must now consider them also slain. Even moving the goalposts, I do not see how CT is so much deadlier than AD&D that everyone fears combat in CT and AD&D is built upon combat as its modus operendi. How is a Gauss or a Shotgun different than a Fireball or some of the creature special attacks?
It is possible for a character to die. That is a "given" in both systems. Survival is more likely than not. That is a feature of both sets of rules. If you really want characters to be shot a half dozen times and fight on like Rambo or the Terminator ... neither CT nor AD&D are the rules for you.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Yes, the goalpost seems quite mobile.
I have noticed that quite a few people who don't think CT combat is too deadly have instituted house rules to make it less deadly... Nothing wrong with that of course, but it is not an argument for RAW being not deadly.
One enemy with a shotgun will knock out several people (as demonstrated), two people with shotguns will kill the same people outright. Three people with shotguns is a TPK waiting to happen...
A knock out is still very dangerous, the "bad guys" are likely to kill you, and the "good guys" are likely to put you in prison for quite some time, a different kind of TPK.
IIRC, Fireball is a third level spell given to fifth level MUs doing 5D [av~17.5] damage. At fifth level your fighter is likely to have 20-40 HP and shrug off a Fireball. A fifth level thief will likely save for half and also shrug off a Fireball. Your fifth level MU might not be so lucky (as usual).
So, no, a Fireball is not likely to kill all that many D&D adventurers, unless used at too low level.
By contrast, in CT normal people with normal weapons can end a combat with a wipeout in a round or two. As all actions are simultaneous, two groups may very well wipe each other out in a single round. That at least is unlikely to happen in D&D.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
IIRC, by RAW they were dead at 0 HP.
First lvl D&D characters don't have or experience Fireball, unless the DM really wants a TPK.
First lvl Traveller chars (≈all Traveller chars) do use and receive fire from shotguns, a basic cheap simple weapon legal on many worlds.
Two identical groups of D&D chars are unlikely to TPK each other in a round.
Two identical groups of Traveller chars are quite likely to kill each other in a round.
In D&D a bowman could rather easily interrupt a MU casting a high lvl spell by doing damage thereby breaking the MUs concentration.
In Traveller there is no stopping a shotgun; it will go off and kill people.
In D&D you had a balanced 50% hit chance or thereabouts.
In Traveller you can often have autohit under good conditions.
Yes, of course.
No, it is not. Traveller can easily kill you in a single round with group hits and autofire. Group hits are easily accessible with shotguns.
D&D rarely used several attacks unless high level and corresponding high HPs.
Low lvl D&D is deadly, yes. Traveller LBB1 combat is even deadlier at all levels.
Traveller restricted to daggers and body pistols might not be all that deadly, but even shotguns much less Gauss Rifles are deadly at all experience levels.
Two groups of four people with shotguns encounter each other.
Each person fires a shotgun: DM-3 vs cloth, DM+3 range, DM+1 skill, total DM+1, hitting on 7+ (58%).
Each person attacks three people, hitting an average of 1.74 times.
Four people achieves 4 × 1.74 = 6.96 hits on the other team.
Each team-member takes 6.96 / 4 = 1.74 hits.
The first hit knocks out, the second hit kill (more or less).
Half of each team is knocked out, the other half is dead, no-one is standing, after one round.
Without the second best armour in the game, all of them would be dead.
That is not a standard D&D fight, even at low level and with full sized swords and bows.
A lvl1 D&D char hits chain on 14+, or perhaps 12+ (40%) with some strength.
He might have D8+2 HP with some Con and a Sword does D8 damage, something like a 25% chance of a kill on a hit.
A four person party would generate 4 × 40% = 1.6 hits each with a 25% kill chance for a total of 0.4 kills per round.
Which is deadlier: Half a kill in low level D&D or reciprocal TPK in Traveller at all levels?
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Of course it's the Referees job to balance a fight so it does not kill everybody.
In Traveller that means you can't use shotguns or autofire weapons as they are too deadly, but have to artificially restrict combats to small weapons. Even a hunting rifle will likely hit and knock out a foe every round at reasonable range.
How many D&D campaigns bans military weapons like swords because they are too deadly?
In Traveller that means you can't use shotguns or autofire weapons as they are too deadly, but have to artificially restrict combats to small weapons. Even a hunting rifle will likely hit and knock out a foe every round at reasonable range.
How many D&D campaigns bans military weapons like swords because they are too deadly?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
This analysis has me thinking that the AHL/Striker penetration vs AV wound effect needs looking at especially the conversion from light/serious to damage dice.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Point 1: The Cleric is using MAGIC to heal people almost instantly (upon casting a spell).
Point 2: That kind of "medical miracles service" is available in AD&D (as you cite) ... but not so much in Traveller.
Point 3: If you remove the "miracles on demand Cleric" from the scenario that you're describing ... in order to "translate" the gameplay experience into Traveller terms ... then being reduced to ZERO or NEGATIVE HP pretty effectively removes people from being combat relevant, relegating them to the status of non-combatant and probably slain.
It's a LOT easier to recover from damage taken in AD&D ... the most common way being to just spend spell slots on miracle magics.
Damage in Traveller ... isn't so easily countered/negated, so it "hurts more" (in the that will leave a mark sense) compared to AD&D.
So ... if you take your AD&D Cleric scenario and remove the Cleric from it ... { significant look }
I did. They don’t match CT, being lighter damage in some and heavier in others largely depending on the armor assuming average rolls. But it is a spectrum of damage rather then hit or miss.
