mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Two words - panic fire.
What are they hitting?
What are they hitting?
Automatic Fire
- Thread starter Narl
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I always enjoy these discussions, its good to have someone that you can bounce ideas off and who force you to look at things form different perspectives.
Agree/disagree - it doesn't matter really. Not if the discussion itself is worthwhile.
And at the risk of inflating your ego
your posts are always thought provoking and worth thinking about.Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Absolutely!
And at the risk of inflating your ego
And...at the risk of inflating yours...I wanted to make it clear that I was in no way upset with you when I wrote the above...I just didn't see anywhere else to take it!
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Couple of points:
1) Did you see any sign of them actually hitting anyone?
2) Did you see any real sign of anyone shooting back at them? Maybe in one segment.
3) These guys were so exposed that any competent enemy with the ability to lay down any reasonable fires could have wiped them out.
That might have been a turkey shoot, live fire exercise, publicity stunt for an embedded reporter (who the military don't, intentionally, risk injury to) etc. What it wasn't was a firefight with any opposing force remotely resembling parity.
But, the original question was "how many shots can you fire in 15 seconds"? A lot, but, what difference does it make if you can't hit anything? Been there, done that, and it isn't a video game.
tim_manley
SOC-12
I’m going to add to the fray here….
Movement in CT combat is abstracted to ranges, using range bands. You move to close range or you move to extend range. This is very war-game like. The ammo count is more duration of the combat unit, it’s abstracted and not an actual count of actual bullets (though it is) but more a representation of how long that combat unit can stay effective in the fight.
Back in the day my favorite combat system was Phoenix Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Command). I house-ruled traveler to use this combat system. It was… very brutal, even more so than traveler normally is since it tracks where the round goes into the body.
I recall having a heck of a lot of fun with that back in my college days oh so many decades ago….
Movement in CT combat is abstracted to ranges, using range bands. You move to close range or you move to extend range. This is very war-game like. The ammo count is more duration of the combat unit, it’s abstracted and not an actual count of actual bullets (though it is) but more a representation of how long that combat unit can stay effective in the fight.
Back in the day my favorite combat system was Phoenix Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Command). I house-ruled traveler to use this combat system. It was… very brutal, even more so than traveler normally is since it tracks where the round goes into the body.
I recall having a heck of a lot of fun with that back in my college days oh so many decades ago….
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
RANGE BANDS and RANGE CATEGORIES
-- the CT Ref's friend --
CT does use range bands, but each range band has a definite, measured length. Each band measures approximately 25 meters (see page 32 of LBB1). If you move two Range Bands, then you are moving 50 meters.
This is a CT tool for the Ref. Any character 2 or more range bands away is at Long Range (really, 2-10 Range Bands away).
Any character farther than 10 Range Bands is at Very Long Range (10-20 Range Bands).
I've always loved this about CT. It makes combat so simple.
Gun Combat Range = Medium Range
Gun Combat is usually conducted at Medium Range. That's 6 meters out to 50 meters. Or, it's easy to say that it is anything less than two range bands. This makes firefights easy as players memorize the Medium Range DMs for their weapons rather quickly.
Long Distance Combat = Long Range
Personal combat is usually not conducted at Long Range, but it does happen, especially with sniper rifles and such. Long Range is anything longer than 2 Range Bands (within the third range band all the way out to 10 range bands). That's 51-250 meters.
Long Range is anything longer than 2 Range Bands.
Very Long Range is anything longer than 10 Range Bands.
And, if you need to go longer, then that's simply anything longer than 10 range bands.
Close Combat
Close combat is conducted in two range categories--both are less than one Range Band. If the combatants are touching, then that's Close Range. Use this when characters are grappling each other.
Close Range = Touch
And normal brawling, whether with fists, swords, or a chair leg or broken bottle, is done at 1-5 meters, or Short Range.
Brawling Combat = Short Range
This makes things extremely simple for the Ref, and he can use the Range Bands and a sheet of lined notebook paper to accurately describe the combat and the ranges without having to resort to counting squares each combat turn.
-- If you're inside a ship and repelling boarders in a gun battle, then it's Medium Range.
-- If you've got two guys going at it with their bare fists, then it's Short Range.
-- If Sannard snuck up on the Vargr and jumped him from behind, at least the first attack is at Close Range, but it could move into Short range in the following combat rounds depending on what happens.
-- If you're a sniper looking at a target, then you're probably at Long Range.
It's a very easy to use combat system.
MOVEMENT
How far can a character move in one round? Speed 1 = 1 Range Band per round. Speed 2 = 2 Range Bands per round. Simple.
This means that, walking, a character can cover 25 meters in 15 seconds of combat. If running, a character can move 50 meters in 15 seconds during the fight.
If a character (standing beside you) runs, he can be at Long Range next round. If a character walks, he can be at Medium Range next round and at Long Range in two rounds.
All very simple.
Man, I LOVE Classic Traveller.
If the Ref...
-- wants to conduct combat with a PC sniper and an air/raft on the horizon, default to Very Long Range.
-- sees a bar brawl break out between the PCs and the crew of a rival tramp freighter, default to Short Range.
-- has a situation where a PC sneaks up behind a guard and attempts to use a garrote on him, default to Close Range.
-- has a gun battle break out, then default to Medium Range.
-- needs to know how long it takes for the PCs to disappear behind the horizon? That default would be the extreme of Very Long Range (barring closer sight obstacles), which is farther than 20 range bands. Running, a character can cover 20 range bands in 10 combat rounds. That's 2.5 minutes.
-- the CT Ref's friend --
CT does use range bands, but each range band has a definite, measured length. Each band measures approximately 25 meters (see page 32 of LBB1). If you move two Range Bands, then you are moving 50 meters.
This is a CT tool for the Ref. Any character 2 or more range bands away is at Long Range (really, 2-10 Range Bands away).
Any character farther than 10 Range Bands is at Very Long Range (10-20 Range Bands).
I've always loved this about CT. It makes combat so simple.
Gun Combat Range = Medium Range
Gun Combat is usually conducted at Medium Range. That's 6 meters out to 50 meters. Or, it's easy to say that it is anything less than two range bands. This makes firefights easy as players memorize the Medium Range DMs for their weapons rather quickly.
Long Distance Combat = Long Range
Personal combat is usually not conducted at Long Range, but it does happen, especially with sniper rifles and such. Long Range is anything longer than 2 Range Bands (within the third range band all the way out to 10 range bands). That's 51-250 meters.
Long Range is anything longer than 2 Range Bands.
Very Long Range is anything longer than 10 Range Bands.
And, if you need to go longer, then that's simply anything longer than 10 range bands.
Close Combat
Close combat is conducted in two range categories--both are less than one Range Band. If the combatants are touching, then that's Close Range. Use this when characters are grappling each other.
Close Range = Touch
And normal brawling, whether with fists, swords, or a chair leg or broken bottle, is done at 1-5 meters, or Short Range.
Brawling Combat = Short Range
This makes things extremely simple for the Ref, and he can use the Range Bands and a sheet of lined notebook paper to accurately describe the combat and the ranges without having to resort to counting squares each combat turn.
-- If you're inside a ship and repelling boarders in a gun battle, then it's Medium Range.
-- If you've got two guys going at it with their bare fists, then it's Short Range.
-- If Sannard snuck up on the Vargr and jumped him from behind, at least the first attack is at Close Range, but it could move into Short range in the following combat rounds depending on what happens.
-- If you're a sniper looking at a target, then you're probably at Long Range.
It's a very easy to use combat system.
MOVEMENT
How far can a character move in one round? Speed 1 = 1 Range Band per round. Speed 2 = 2 Range Bands per round. Simple.
This means that, walking, a character can cover 25 meters in 15 seconds of combat. If running, a character can move 50 meters in 15 seconds during the fight.
If a character (standing beside you) runs, he can be at Long Range next round. If a character walks, he can be at Medium Range next round and at Long Range in two rounds.
All very simple.
Man, I LOVE Classic Traveller.
Code:
[U]WITHIN ONE RANGE BAND[/U]
Close Range = Grapple Range
Short Range = Brawling Range
[U]WITHIN TWO RANGE BANDS[/U]
Medium Range = Pistol Range
[U]FARTHER THAN TWO RANGE BANDS[/U]
Long Range = Rifle Range
[U]FARTHER THAN TEN RANGE BANDS[/U]
Very Long Range = Sight RangeIf the Ref...
-- wants to conduct combat with a PC sniper and an air/raft on the horizon, default to Very Long Range.
-- sees a bar brawl break out between the PCs and the crew of a rival tramp freighter, default to Short Range.
-- has a situation where a PC sneaks up behind a guard and attempts to use a garrote on him, default to Close Range.
-- has a gun battle break out, then default to Medium Range.
-- needs to know how long it takes for the PCs to disappear behind the horizon? That default would be the extreme of Very Long Range (barring closer sight obstacles), which is farther than 20 range bands. Running, a character can cover 20 range bands in 10 combat rounds. That's 2.5 minutes.
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Graphic of Classic Traveller Range Categories and Range Bands
Most combat encounters will occur at Medium Range or less.
When you need to deal with extreme ranges, you can use Very Long Range, which is farther than 10 Range Bands (11-20 Range Bands). You'll rarely use this range category. 251 meters to 500 meters. That's to a distance of almost a third of a mile. Chances are, your terrain horizon is somewhere in the Very Long Range category, if it's not shorter.
If I drew to the scale above, Very Long Range would end somewhere off your monitor to your left (ten times the two range bands I drew above).
If a target is moving, he'll be at Medium Range. He's either walking at Speed 1 or running at Speed 2. Either way, he's at Medium Range for one combat round. If running, he's at Long Range on combat round two. In city environments (or other crowded environments), it is common to consider a character who has made it to Long Range to be considered to have successfully escaped the encounter. Minimum distance to Long Range is equal to about half a football field. So, if your PCs get into trouble, remind them that they can get lost in the city (or, if your PCs are following bad guys) if the can increase range to Long. That only takes one round of exposed running, if the pursuants are stationary. This can be harder if the the chasers are keeping up with the runners in a chase. This is where the CT Ref steps in and devises rules for an off-the-cuff foot or vehicle chase.
If using air/rafts, where the sight lines are much longer, I suggest using the Very Long Range limit as the point where a vehicle in a chase has escaped his pursuers. That's at 500+ meters, or 20 Range Bands. But, that depends on the sensor and tracking equipment aboard the vehicles, doesn't it? If the chasers are jacked into the satellite, or even their own ship's sensors from their vessel in geosynch orbit, there may be no hiding at all.
I love this friggin' game!
Most combat encounters will occur at Medium Range or less.
Code:
X____5___________________25________________________50
|----- 1 Range Band -----|----- 2 Range Bands -----|
C -- S ------------------------------------------ M
X = PC - Close Range (Touch)
X to 5 = Short Range (Brawling Range)
X to 50 = Medium Range, up to 2 Range Bands (Pistol Range)
50+ = Long Range (Rifle Range, More than 2 Range Bands, 3-10 Range Bands)
X to 25 = 1 Range Band (and 25 to 50 = 1 Range Band)When you need to deal with extreme ranges, you can use Very Long Range, which is farther than 10 Range Bands (11-20 Range Bands). You'll rarely use this range category. 251 meters to 500 meters. That's to a distance of almost a third of a mile. Chances are, your terrain horizon is somewhere in the Very Long Range category, if it's not shorter.
If I drew to the scale above, Very Long Range would end somewhere off your monitor to your left (ten times the two range bands I drew above).
If a target is moving, he'll be at Medium Range. He's either walking at Speed 1 or running at Speed 2. Either way, he's at Medium Range for one combat round. If running, he's at Long Range on combat round two. In city environments (or other crowded environments), it is common to consider a character who has made it to Long Range to be considered to have successfully escaped the encounter. Minimum distance to Long Range is equal to about half a football field. So, if your PCs get into trouble, remind them that they can get lost in the city (or, if your PCs are following bad guys) if the can increase range to Long. That only takes one round of exposed running, if the pursuants are stationary. This can be harder if the the chasers are keeping up with the runners in a chase. This is where the CT Ref steps in and devises rules for an off-the-cuff foot or vehicle chase.
If using air/rafts, where the sight lines are much longer, I suggest using the Very Long Range limit as the point where a vehicle in a chase has escaped his pursuers. That's at 500+ meters, or 20 Range Bands. But, that depends on the sensor and tracking equipment aboard the vehicles, doesn't it? If the chasers are jacked into the satellite, or even their own ship's sensors from their vessel in geosynch orbit, there may be no hiding at all.
I love this friggin' game!
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
@Narl
Another thing about combat that I should point out....
I'm glad you have the Traveller Book. IMO, it's the best set of rules for playing Classic Traveller (except for Space Combat....for that, you should turn to the version included in Starter Traveller. Click on the link. You can download it for free.)
STARTER TRAVELLER FREE DOWNLOAD
One of the best features of TTB is that it has the cover and concealment rules missing from other editions of the game. Encourage your players to use these rules. When they move, move from cover to cover, making it hard to get hit.
Classic Traveller combat is deadlier than most other games. The first time a character gets hit, he's likely to be incapacitated due to the first blood rule. He probably won't be killed, but he'll be knocked unconscious and out of the fight for its duration. If any enemies can get to him, he may be slain with a coup de grace.
Use cover. Use concealment. Use Evade. Those are your combat friends.
Another thing about combat that I should point out....
I'm glad you have the Traveller Book. IMO, it's the best set of rules for playing Classic Traveller (except for Space Combat....for that, you should turn to the version included in Starter Traveller. Click on the link. You can download it for free.)
STARTER TRAVELLER FREE DOWNLOAD
One of the best features of TTB is that it has the cover and concealment rules missing from other editions of the game. Encourage your players to use these rules. When they move, move from cover to cover, making it hard to get hit.
Classic Traveller combat is deadlier than most other games. The first time a character gets hit, he's likely to be incapacitated due to the first blood rule. He probably won't be killed, but he'll be knocked unconscious and out of the fight for its duration. If any enemies can get to him, he may be slain with a coup de grace.
Use cover. Use concealment. Use Evade. Those are your combat friends.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
The USMC "KD" (known distance) rifle qualification course includes 2 rapid-fire sequences (fired on "single" setting, not "burst" or "auto").
The first is at 200meters - the shooter stands with his M-16 in his left hand (with a magazine with 5-rounds inserted), and a second magazine with 5-rounds in his belt pouch. At the first command he loads the first round, then at the second he drops into a sitting position and fires at the "dog" target (a silhouette conforming roughly to the head & shoulders of a man).
He has a total of 1 minute (60 seconds, timed) to both drop into position and fire all 10 rounds (including changing magazines). That comes out to about 1 round per 4-5 seconds after subtracting time for the drop-to-position and to change magazines.
The second is the same, except the distance is 300 meters, and the shooter drops from standing to a prone position.
I fired the course a number of times in my 8 years in the USMC, and almost always scored max points on both targets. A large number of the others qualifying at the same time did the same or came close, so this was not exceptional.
Yes, this was not with anyone shooting at us, but it was aimed accurate fire at 1 round per ~5 seconds.
And NO, atpollard - this is NOT "an appeal to authority", it is simply a factual experience shared by many thousands of U. S. Marines.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Are the targets designed to move around at 200m? Or are they fixed in place? Same for the 300m ones, are any of them designed to sprint from cover to cover while weaving about?
It would be trivial to design and build such targets?
Are the targets shooting back? Have a remote controlled practice round gun firing back with the proviso that if you are hit you are transferred to the Air Force.
Target shooting is not the same as combat.
After battle stats for rifle fire make for interesting reading - 50,000 rounds of assault rifle ammo to confirm one kill is a statistic from Vietnam I have heard quoted, for snipers its something like 1.8 rounds per kill.
It would be trivial to design and build such targets?
Are the targets shooting back? Have a remote controlled practice round gun firing back with the proviso that if you are hit you are transferred to the Air Force.
Target shooting is not the same as combat.
After battle stats for rifle fire make for interesting reading - 50,000 rounds of assault rifle ammo to confirm one kill is a statistic from Vietnam I have heard quoted, for snipers its something like 1.8 rounds per kill.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hmm- what I may do is think about changing the scale for combat at close and short range to second long turns.
Interesting idea. You might also want to allow for varying number of actions in combat at that scale, as is done in Space:1889. Depending on a character's Agility (read Dexterity in Traveller terms) and Close Combat experience, a character gets a certain number of actions per round - so a more experienced and agile fighter can do more in that space of time.
The default Space:1889 system seems to allow all of the "extra" actions to come after the actions of other opponents; I wrote up a short alternate rule allowing the extras to be inserted at different points in the close combat, so that for example a fighter with a high enough number of actions could actually take his first action before the others took any action at all - a sort of automatic surprise action, every round.
Just a suggestion. Seems to me that would add some pizzaz to close combat, as would your idea of having shorter rounds at that range.
Yes, automatic weapons are quite lethal in CT. Look up the 'Panic Fire' rule. Then look at the Gauss Rifle stats in Mercenary. Arguably, Striker is even more so.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I ignore the "roll to hit twice" rule in CT combat. The reason is that autofire bonuses are already included in the weapon charts. An autorifle (at medium range) gets a +3 to +5 greater combined to-hit bonus compared with a rifle. On a 2d6 system, this is a HUGE modifier. Giving two shots is makes auto weapons even more absurdly overpowered in my opinion. I suspect that's why it was dropped from Snapshot.
I use the multiple rolls to hit, but limit them to "number of targets" as per Striker - though I use the CT system. It assumes some rounds are fly-aways between target to target, even if there is only one target. To compensate for the number of rounds that may hit a target I give an extra 1D6 damage.
So, if an SMG is fired at two targets the firer can roll to hit each one once so long as they are close enough to each other. If hit each target takes 4D6 damage instead of 3D6 because they might catch 2 bullets instead of one. It doesn't break the game, but it does make autofire a hair more dangerous than merely a higher chance to hit with a lot of wasted ammo.
Since some automatic weapons throw horrendous volumes of lead down range each combat round, you have to have some reason for using them by allowing for multiple targets or the point of having things like VRF GG's and HMG's all the way down to SMG's is pointless.
So, if an SMG is fired at two targets the firer can roll to hit each one once so long as they are close enough to each other. If hit each target takes 4D6 damage instead of 3D6 because they might catch 2 bullets instead of one. It doesn't break the game, but it does make autofire a hair more dangerous than merely a higher chance to hit with a lot of wasted ammo.
Since some automatic weapons throw horrendous volumes of lead down range each combat round, you have to have some reason for using them by allowing for multiple targets or the point of having things like VRF GG's and HMG's all the way down to SMG's is pointless.
Travellerspud
SOC-12
in real life, when someone is shot at, there is a range of possibilities;
Near Instant Death (drop in their tracks, lights out)
Unconsciousness (from one or multiple wounds)
Consciousness/no game effect (despite one or multiple wounds)
Close call (supression?)
No effect what so ever
CT covers all of these nicely (even supression, sort of - if you evade you get -2 to hit, but you won't evade if there is no firing or possibility of firing)
The one facet not covered is eventual bleed-out (after 1-4 minutes) followed by unconsciousness/death if not treated
Near Instant Death (drop in their tracks, lights out)
Unconsciousness (from one or multiple wounds)
Consciousness/no game effect (despite one or multiple wounds)
Close call (supression?)
No effect what so ever
CT covers all of these nicely (even supression, sort of - if you evade you get -2 to hit, but you won't evade if there is no firing or possibility of firing)
The one facet not covered is eventual bleed-out (after 1-4 minutes) followed by unconsciousness/death if not treated
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
In a sense the last one is, if you think of taking those last hits that zero you out and the medic doesn't stabilize you as bleed out time.
And I'm satisfied with the double threat FA fire brings to the table, makes sense to me.
It does only until you read that these autofire weapons are only burst-firing 4 rounds. I would, in my expert opinion, argue that unless you are at 10' or less from the target half of those will be flyaways that go over or next to the target. And every automatic weapon type and model has different qualities as far as recoil and the direction the muzzle drifts. And weapons firing 10 round bursts - well, at least the ACR and GG have the recoil gyros to keep them on target. And that is also why they have such murderously high range DM's in autofire. But still, shifting fire between targets for autofire, even if it is on a mount of some kind, ought to have more of a penalty given you'll lose some of the rounds between targets.
Call of Cthulhu had it that you said how many rounds you fired, which also told you how much you could increase your to hit DM (limited by 2X your skill in the weapon), and then you divided the round up between targets for damage. You subtracted one round per target to account for shifting fire. Nasty, but it illustrates the complexities of trying accurately model automatic weapons in a game while trying to keep it fast and simple enough that it keeps the game moving.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we are talking ACR and Gauss when talking the 4 round bursts, right? Most of the SMGs/LMGs have higher ROF if I recall correctly. Auto Rifle you may have a point, at the least higher ammo consumption or a requirement of a burst per target engaged.
