Rules Only: Traveller "deadly" Combat Rules discussion

[atpollard]

Actual combat-wise in-play, I'd say Traveller is on a par with D&D at level 1

[Not disagreeing, just offering my opinion.]

D&D level 1-3 is closer (going Rules as written).
Max HP are rarer than House Rules in the original c.1980 game (to compare D&D vs Traveller from the same "Classic" era) and both had the possibility of facing something that far outclassed the player (D&D monster vs Traveller Gauss Autorifle).

D&D just gave you DEATH at -10 instead of 0, but "helpless/mission kill" was comparable.

 

[Badenov]

[Not disagreeing, just offering my opinion.]

D&D level 1-3 is closer (going Rules as written).

Won't argue with that. D&D Level 1-3 is a fragile range for any class, though moreso for some than others.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Take a knife.
Stick it through someone's neck or thigh artery and they die. Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Take a .22 pistol, shoot it into someone's skull into their brain and they die (usually but not always).
Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Conclusion, Traveller combat is not as lethal as the meme suggests.

Or real life.

So what would make it as lethal as real life?

A Called Shot
A Critical Hit
And Bleeding rules

I'm pretty sure that's all that is missing. Unfortunately those are only in Space Combat (except the Bleeding) in Mongoose (unless I missed them). I don't have Classic handy or I'd look it up.

The chance of a Critical Hit should go up or down depending on the body part.

And Bleeding should depend on whether they had their wound seen to. Unless there is Internal Bleeding.

Well, I think I just found this week's project.

 

[mike wightman]

I already have rules for critical hits and bleeding in CT.
And aiming/called shots.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I already have rules for critical hits and bleeding in CT.
And aiming/called shots.

Then your Combat simulates Real Life.

Are those House Rules? I'd love to see them before I reinvent the wheel.

 

[kilemall]

Take a knife.
Stick it through someone's neck or thigh artery and they die. Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Take a .22 pistol, shoot it into someone's skull into their brain and they die (usually but not always).
Does this happen in Traveller combat?
No.
Can it?
No, not by the rules as written.

Conclusion, Traveller combat is not as lethal as the meme suggests.

Right, which is why I rejiggered the system to make something like a blade to the head average 3D but can be up to 5D.

 

[kilemall]

Then your Combat simulates Real Life.

Are those House Rules? I'd love to see them before I reinvent the wheel.

I have shock rules in my medical addendum, which also includes diseases.

I consider my relatively involved combat rules inseparable from medical, as a big point of all the resolution is to create medical drama for both the patient and the medic.

 

[kilemall]

In case you are interested-
Medical-

QND Medical Drama

This is a Quick and Dirty medical drama set of rules, using a version of 68A and something like CT damage resolution, to provide color and visualization to medical situations and drama for the Medic to handle. Feel free to translate into the system variation of your choice. Part I- Combat...

www.travellerrpg.com

Striker-

Striker Combat - Armor, Penetration and Damage

Notification that this discussion was moved to its own topic. Pfft I had it wrong, mistaking the melee table for the personnel wounds table. It's much much worse. Which just gets one back to the conclusion, best not to get hit in the first place, and do unto others first before they do unto...

www.travellerrpg.com

 

[Grav_Moped]

D&D has Wands of Fireballs, too, but those are not TYPICAL ranged weapons for starting characters, are they? Rifles/Shoguns (Traveller) and Bows (D&D) are typical.

Go back to the rules on LAW LEVELS. How many Traveller worlds will you encounter a fully automatic weapon on? How many worlds can you walk off the Starport with a RIFLE and not trigger a MILITARY response at the gate?

[PS. the MEME predates Mongoose Traveller. ]

Granted, but in Traveller the barriers to getting the killer weapons and becoming invulnerable with armor are money and available tech level. D&D, you get them if your referee puts them into play, or not -- and nigh-invulnerability due to high hit points comes with leveling up. Traveller lets you buy your superhuman capabilities at retail (if you can find a place to buy them).

 

[Spinward Scout]

If I remember right, any world higher than TL-11 has Gauss weapons. The average Traveller should be able to get them. The Law Level is the only barrier, really.

But if you can't take them out of the Starport, you're basically fighting with Sticks and Stones.

In case you are interested-

Thanks! Those look great!

 

[mike wightman]

Then your Combat simulates Real Life.

Are those House Rules? I'd love to see them before I reinvent the wheel.

I have posted them a few times before during their stages of development. The latest version coming up.

Just a couple of notes, I have moved away from rolling any more than one to hit roll and one damage roll, and I prefer armour as damage reduction. The most important change is the first blood rule is replaced with a critical hit rule.

Roll to hit using your favourite version of the rules.

If successful roll damage and apply it as per your rules of choice.

Critical hit

A roll of a natural 12, an effect number of +6 or more, or a called/aimed shot (DM -4 and double any DM penalties for target and shooter movement)

All the damage is applied to one physical characteristic, if it is reduced to 0 and there is damage remaining transfer to another random physical characteristic (unless it is a called shot which has its own special rule)

Called shot - in addition to a description of where you are aiming the following damage tranfer paths can be specified
Str->End (torso)
Str->Dex (limbs/joints)
Dex->End (head)

 

[mike wightman]

Hit location, Unconsciousness, wounding, bleeding out, and death.

Hit location is stolen from T2k4e

You need two different colour to hit dice.
Nominate one of them as hit location
1 - legs, 2-4 - torso, 5 - arms, 6 - head.

The other can be used to decide left or right or subdivide torso and head.

Any characteristic reduced to zero for any reason - roll End or less on 2D or lose consciousness.
Two characteristics reduced to zero for any reason - roll End of less on 3D or lose consciousness.
At the end of each subsequent turn roll again.
Regain consciousness if End roll succeeds.

Reducing a characteristic to zero through cumulative damage is classed as a light wound, reducing it in one hit is a serious wound.

Reducing two characteristics to zero through cumulative damage is a serious wound.

At the beginning of the next turn having made your END throw the zero characteristic(s) is reset to half way between zero and the unwounded level (be careful it is now much easier for you to be seriously wounded).

Every END light wound and every serious wound costs you blood loss - keep track of this.

Once the total blood loss is greater than your END you go into shock. This requires medical treatment or a successful END roll.

Bleeding out - a serious End wound has an additional complication, make an immediate 2D roll to get less than or equal to your END or you start bleeding out, you will lose 1 blood every turn until medical treatment.

You are dead when - all characteristics are at 0 and you fail the End roll
or you get a total blood loss equal to STR+END and fail the END roll.

 

[whartung]

If I remember right, any world higher than TL-11 has Gauss weapons. The average Traveller should be able to get them. The Law Level is the only barrier, really.

There's no "official" semi-auto only Gauss Rifle, nor a "bolt action" style Gauss Rifle. Not everyone needs full auto and a grenade launcher for varminting (though some may argue about both of those, depending on the particular varmints...).

I'd take a semi GR in a hot minute.

I think. "It's bad enough I have to keep my phone charged, but I also need to charge my magazines...".

 

[atpollard]

Not everyone needs full auto and a grenade launcher for varminting (though some may argue about both of those, depending on the particular varmints...).

 

[atpollard]

There's no "official" semi-auto only Gauss Rifle, nor a "bolt action" style Gauss Rifle. Not everyone needs full auto and a grenade launcher for varminting (though some may argue about both of those, depending on the particular varmints...).

If you will indulge me a brief aside ...

I ran into this EXACT issue on my PbP RPG (BACKWATER on Unseen Servant) where the world is TL 11 and LL 7 so advanced weapons are possible (within technology) but "All Firearms are prohibited". Yet the population of 30,000 lives in settlements with an "apex predator" in the wilderness that weighs tons, runs faster than a car, and would be really pissed off if you shot it with a 6D6 weapon. For people living in a farming community of less than 500 people, a spear or crossbow in your pick-up just will not cut it.

My solution was to have Cities of 10,000 enforce the LL restrictions on weapons (LL 7) while rural communities turned a blind eye at LL 4 (shotguns permitted) and the old 8 bore and 4 bore shotguns make a revival (with locally produced HE slugs). Range is short and a break open double-barrel shotgun doesn't really challenge the TL 11 "Government" ... but a 24mm HE slug [14D6] will make an impression on a really big "varmint" at shotgun range.

 

[Condottiere]

Draw a circle, centred on the aiming point.

Allow for gravitational drop.

Allow for target silhouette at the time of impact.

Allow for disturbance at the time of shooting.

Allow for target screening.

See if Sagittarius is in it's second phase in the House of the Rising Sun.

 

[atpollard]

See if Sagittarius is in it's second phase in the House of the Rising Sun.

... but I am a Capricorn! ... born in the year of the Tiger!

 

[whartung]

I have seen video of someone using a minigun on feral hogs...at night...with lights...chasing them down in a vehicle. And, of course, In Texas.

 

[Dragoner]

1st 3d6 rifle hit is avg 10, avg stat is 7, so one is unconscious in one avg hit, can vary a bit; though low level D&D was often called as lethal. I think the deal with Traveller is that it never gets better.

 

[kensei10]

I do actually like distribution of damage and precisely for personal/visualization/medic drama.

The unconscious first blood thing is a bit much, but I look at it as a sort of simplification, a mission kill without killing people.

As for lethality, it also bothered me that a pistol couldn’t kill or most melee weapons. I went to a 1d/2d/3d location damage determination, then a pen damage system off Striker where the armor could shave off die or the weapon is too powerful and adds die.

Yields a 0-6d result range, handles mixed vest/unarmored, tends to average like CT weapons but a lucky shot to say an unarmored head by pistol or even dagger will kill, and an FGMP hit on say an arm or leg just destroys that but doesn’t necessarily kill the victim.

I suppose a functional simplification would be to do damage like CT animals, a mission kill disable number followed by kill number. I would use the highest value for the kill number, and add the other two for the disable number, or standardize on STR+DEX/END. Note whatever mix it is for post battle functionality and medical recovery.

I switched to using the striker damage as soon as I got a copy of it, much better damage and armor system.