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Back in the Rim: language, censorship, religion, rationalism

Strawbow, I am not getting your point. Marc has a mind. Traveller is a product of that mind. Mental constructs, such as games, laws, languages, literature and stories are dependent on minds. Minds are somewhat dependent on the ideas they hold, in such cases like, if you think a poisonous plant is not poisonous, and eat it, it gets killed along with the body. If Marc's game did not sell, we would not be talking about it, it would be as if it did not exist in our minds. (Which it wouldn't)

And there are feedback loops involved here. Marc's creation is subject to the laws of economics. If his intention is to make money, then he is going to have to alter that product in order to it be acceptable to others. Or else they won't buy it. So to prevent loss of revenues, he may leave out things he feels strongly about, such as religion.
 
Drakon:
If you are MWM, you create Traveller, and you have sovereignty over the milieu. You are not a part of the game or milieu.

(Like all analogies it is a bad one except for the one point being made.)
First, please note the above. Now I will explain.

Economics has nothing to do with my point. My point was only about transcendence of a creator from his creation. Any other analogies you may wish to make have no bearing.

I will also rebutt your flawed analogy. God does not depend on the "economics" of belief. He is God whether you believe or not.
 
Bow,

I don't think Drakon was saying anything about God's economy.

However, it does seem that, though Drakon missed your point, he certainly did say things which agree with it:

(1) a creation reflects (in some way) its creator's ideas, and
(2) the mind creates for a purpose.


-Rob

Idle musings:

In the case of Traveller, the characters in the game, were they sentient, could not guess at the reasons that the TU exists. They would plainly understand the mechanics at work, but not why they work that way.

I could imagine street-corner prophets scurrying around crying out "life is just a big game!!"
 
Repent! The End is nigh!
file_21.gif
 
General Relativity precluded faster than light travel through normal space led to the use of the jump drive, as a work around.
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A. Einstein is not omniscient. I see not reason why he could not be wrong in that regard.
B. On the other hand I am to ignorant of Physics to argue it.
C. I can be satisfied to note that scientists change theories faster than Vargr's change glorious leaders and therefore I don't see why a new theory might not allow faster-than-light
D. Faster-than-light is almost mandatory in Sci-fi
E. I don't find it hard to "suspend disbelief" through the physical science part(OK I do find a universe with an exact copy of Kirk, Spock, etc. a little hard to stomach).
F. However I am a amateur social-studies student
G. Therefore I expect people to act like people given the circumstances.
H. Which is why I like Traveller
 
D. Faster-than-light is almost mandatory in Sci-fi
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If you don't have faster than light you are excessively limited; this is why it is mandatory despite scientific theory.
 
Originally posted by Straybow:
Economics has nothing to do with my point. My point was only about transcendence of a creator from his creation. Any other analogies you may wish to make have no bearing.

I will also rebutt your flawed analogy. God does not depend on the "economics" of belief. He is God whether you believe or not.
But does the world work the way it does because it is simply pleasing to God for it to work that way, or is there some other reason why God made those choices as to how the universe functions?

To put another way, is something good simply because God says so, or does God say something is good because it is, regardless of what God says about it one way or the other?

I think I have mentioned this before, but I feel it is necessary to "card" anyone claiming to talk as, or for God. You never know what other kinds of entities might be out there, and a someone with a few magic tricks might be able to make a fool out of you, unless you verify his identity.
 
Originally posted by robject:
Idle musings:

In the case of Traveller, the characters in the game, were they sentient, could not guess at the reasons that the TU exists. They would plainly understand the mechanics at work, but not why they work that way.

I could imagine street-corner prophets scurrying around crying out "life is just a big game!!"
Funny you should mention this. John Ford (who has gone on to write for some of the GURPs Traveller stuff) wrote a novel about Klingons called "The Final Reflection" In it he introduces the game of Klin Za (-2sp) which is a chess variant, and also serves as a philosophical basis for Klingon culture (as Ford imagined it)

I had been thinking along the "what if" lines, if one of the ancient Greeks had come up with this notion that reality is "just a game". And the variations of this that would emerge as competing philosophic systems later on.

I see two main variants. On one side, you'd have the "its only a game" crowd. Those who would not take life or reality all that seriously, just be around to enjoy the game.

Another variant is the "winning is everything" kind of attitude/world view. This side would see that winning, victory is the only thing of importance, just like winning in a game is the most important thing. (A contention the previous group rebuts, saying the important thing is to enjoy the game.)

Have not gotten all that far in this line of inquiry, as real life has taken its toll. But thanks to your post, will be thinking about it again.
 
Originally posted by jatay3:
General Relativity precluded faster than light travel through normal space led to the use of the jump drive, as a work around.
......................................
A. Einstein is not omniscient. I see not reason why he could not be wrong in that regard.


It has nothing to do with Einstein's lack of omniscence. This is not a religious discussion, but a scientific one. If Einstein was wrong, then whatever theory is to replace his, has to satisfy the exact same set of observations that confirm GR. Or alternately, faced with a lack of evidence to disprove GR, one has to find a way within General Relativity to achieve FTL. Which was not done until 1994. Long after Traveller was created.


B. On the other hand I am to ignorant of Physics to argue it.


The theory behind GR is quite simple. The math is a bit of a night mare at first. And it is a rather esoteric subject of little applicablity in ordinary life.


C. I can be satisfied to note that scientists change theories faster than Vargr's change glorious leaders and therefore I don't see why a new theory might not allow faster-than-light


It is not some willy nilly process. Old theories don't change until and unless there is evidence existing theories are broken. Or that a new theory does a better job than the old one. Scientists propose crazy stuff all the time, and a lot of it is just crazy, unworkable, and most important, refutable by objective evidence. But every once in a while, a new theory does a better job of explaining things, fits current and future observations and leads to new technologies.

In other words, because theories have to fit with real world observations, there is more here than simply changing leaders. It has to fit with the real world, or it gets tossed out and forgotten.

Now for gaming purposes, none of this really matters a great deal. But I like to keep some semblance of realism, of what could be, in the game. So I try to keep up with a lot of the current research, especially on the subject of FTL. I guess I will game it until I can build it.

D. Faster-than-light is almost mandatory in Sci-fi

yep, especially if you want to travel to the stars. Otherwise you are playing Morrow Project or some other game set in a giant space ship going nowhere really slow.

E. I don't find it hard to "suspend disbelief" through the physical science part(OK I do find a universe with an exact copy of Kirk, Spock, etc. a little hard to stomach).
Well it is only a game

F. However I am a amateur social-studies student
G. Therefore I expect people to act like people given the circumstances.
H. Which is why I like Traveller
I am an ameteur scientist, or researcher, or maybe I just read a lot. Given the wide variance in human actions, and their naturally unpredictable nature, I never know what to expect from humans.
 
Originally posted by Drakon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jatay3:
D. Faster-than-light is almost mandatory in Sci-fi

yep, especially if you want to travel to the stars. Otherwise you are playing Morrow Project or some other game set in a giant space ship going nowhere really slow.
</font>[/QUOTE]Or you could be playing in Sprague de Camp's Viagens Interplanetarias universe.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Krishna/


Hans
 
Originally posted by Drakon:
But does the world work the way it does because it is simply pleasing to God for it to work that way, or is there some other reason why God made those choices as to how the universe functions?

To put another way, is something good simply because God says so, or does God say something is good because it is, regardless of what God says about it one way or the other?

I think I have mentioned this before, but I feel it is necessary to "card" anyone claiming to talk as, or for God. You never know what other kinds of entities might be out there, and a someone with a few magic tricks might be able to make a fool out of you, unless you verify his identity.
That is a question for Random Static more than IMTU&#133 On topic I would simply say it doesn't matter as far as whether God exists. Rather, the question you pose is trying to ascertain what kind of God exists, which either begs or concedes the question.
 
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />C. I can be satisfied to note that scientists change theories faster than Vargr's change glorious leaders and therefore I don't see why a new theory might not allow faster-than-light
It is not some willy nilly process. Old theories don't change until and unless there is evidence existing theories are broken. Or that a new theory does a better job than the old one. Scientists propose crazy stuff all the time, and a lot of it is just crazy, unworkable, and most important, refutable by objective evidence. But every once in a while, a new theory does a better job of explaining things, fits current and future observations and leads to new technologies.

In other words, because theories have to fit with real world observations, there is more here than simply changing leaders. It has to fit with the real world, or it gets tossed out and forgotten.

Now for gaming purposes, none of this really matters a great deal. But I like to keep some semblance of realism, of what could be, in the game. So I try to keep up with a lot of the current research, especially on the subject of FTL. I guess I will game it until I can build it.
</font>[/QUOTE]The reason for peer review is that science is so large that one can not know enough to validly thoroughly test one's idea against all accepted theories intellectually. Let alone actually confirm it.

In fact, the reason for so many "Wild theories" is not that they are new insights (in fact, many tend to be derivative from similar sources in similar directions) but that so often people don't have the obvious refutation in their knowledge base due to scientific overspecialization....

Only one areas of science really leaves room for amatuers much anymore: astonomy. In most other fields, finding sufficiently novel research to do is a trick in and of itself.

Physics has been shaken by several people working outside their own fields, tho...

Now, as for traveller 'science', MWM made several layman's predictions. Some were patently absurd (computer sizes) within a few years, some were based upon inadequate knowledge (meson guns), and some were exceedingly generously optomistic (Gravitics by 2000).

Overall, though, it was a playable mix. That mix has been tampered with from time to time (DGP, Frank Chadwick, Loren Wiseman, MWM, Hunter Gordon), mostly to meet player demands.

Overall, any single edition is a playable mix. Lumping tem together, however, has some interesting quirks... and occasionally leads to disaster (since several have fundamentally different assumptions about power plants and fuel).
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
The reason for peer review is that science is so large that one can not know enough to validly thoroughly test one's idea against all accepted theories intellectually. Let alone actually confirm it.
Its not old theory that any new one has to take on. It is reality itself. This is something that seems missing in alot of this. The entire reason for proposing a theory in the first place is as a description of reality. Whether it fits in with old theories or not, is irrelevant.

Science is not religion. Peer reveiw has no bearing on the truth of a scientific theory. All it does determine is whether a particular publication will publish the theory. If it fails peer review, then the author has to go elsewhere to get it published. (Or he can put it up on the LANL archives which have no peer review)

What determines the success of a theory is whether it provides a useable model of reality. Whether it provides insight, and/or predictions that are borne out. Even if an original theory is rejected by a particular publication, that will do little to silence it in itself. Especially in this internet age.

In fact, the reason for so many "Wild theories" is not that they are new insights (in fact, many tend to be derivative from similar sources in similar directions) but that so often people don't have the obvious refutation in their knowledge base due to scientific overspecialization....
Good point, and I think this is part of the problem. Another part is that the easy stuff has already been done, and the more fine or detailed observations required to further science means a lot of money needs to get spent. But again, there is an evolutionary process at work with reality as the final arbiter of what is, and is not true.

Only one areas of science really leaves room for amatuers much anymore: astonomy. In most other fields, finding sufficiently novel research to do is a trick in and of itself.

Physics has been shaken by several people working outside their own fields, tho...

Sad but true. Again, the increased expense, epecially in high energy physics is a big reason for the lack of amatuers. Anyone can pick up a telescope and perhaps spot a new comet. But how many of us can afford an atom smasher in our garage? (Would this even be a good thing if we could?)

There is another side issue that I see in my job. And that is the fact that getting a doctorate in physics is expensive in and of itself. That expense has to be justified, or else the doctor will feel like he had been conned. There is an all too human defense mechanism of denigrating an amatuer, or a lowly technician, because he did not spend the vaste amount of money going to college.

Now, as for traveller 'science', MWM made several layman's predictions. Some were patently absurd (computer sizes) within a few years, some were based upon inadequate knowledge (meson guns), and some were exceedingly generously optomistic (Gravitics by 2000).

Overall, though, it was a playable mix. That mix has been tampered with from time to time (DGP, Frank Chadwick, Loren Wiseman, MWM, Hunter Gordon), mostly to meet player demands.

Overall, any single edition is a playable mix. Lumping tem together, however, has some interesting quirks... and occasionally leads to disaster (since several have fundamentally different assumptions about power plants and fuel).
Again, good points, one and all. I think a lot of Marc got wrong back in the 70's is pretty forgivable. Its hard enough to predict where human events will go, let alone technical innovation. Heck, I am still waiting for my flying car.
But the fact that computer power has increased so dramatically, while prices have fallen just as dramatically, I doubt anyone could have forseen the day when they would be as ubiquitous or as powerful as they are in so short a time.

Even Marc's choice of jump drive makes sense in the context of scientific understanding of the 70's. And yes, it does provide a very playable mix, which is one reason my own efforts for building an alternative to it have been so difficult. You really get to see how each piece affects the others when you try to swap out one piece without destroying or rendering unplayable (or unrealistic) the rest of the game.
 
Originally posted by Straybow:
That is a question for Random Static more than IMTU&#133 On topic I would simply say it doesn't matter as far as whether God exists. Rather, the question you pose is trying to ascertain what kind of God exists, which either begs or concedes the question.
Part of this has to do with attempting to make MTU as realistic as possible. And maybe you have a point about "carding God" conceeding the question as to whether God exists. But I should point out that such is MY response to the claim by another as to their divine status/nature/existence. If there is no claim to divinity, (or alternately speaking for divinity), then there is no need to card them.

Or to put it another way, "Why does God need a starship?"
 
Please note that Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic, had no problem crafting his Middle Earth with nearly no reference to the Lord, simply because of the way he approached the matter. It wasn't a question of what's real or not, but rather something else which I can't remember (because I'm not in tune with the whole issue).
 
True, but The Lord of the Rings trilogy was not about "language, censorship, religion, rationalism". Trying to portray religion realistically in a game setting is a bit dicey anyway. Which is why we are having this discussion.
 
Most modern science research is in theoretical fields, whcih, BTW, are effectively religion.

Many fields of science do not do "Observe and rationalize" ala Gallileo, Newton, and Huygens; in fact, such methods are not acceptable research practice now, outside or paleology and geology.

Most do "Theorize, Predict, and evaluate prediction" (which is the social and physics model of the scientific research model). Observational data may invalidate predictions, but NEVER confirms, only fails to refute. (Hakins, Stephen, from one of his books.)

A few (medicine, psychology, biology, zoology) routinely do controlled experiments and evaluate the theory not on prediction but on whether the observed element actually is apparently effected by the experimental action.

several are incapable of actual experimentation to directly examine their validity: Astrophysics, Archaeology, Paleoology, Much of Geology, Geography, History, vulcanology, astronomy.

Science is NOT constrained by reality, but by reality as percieved. For example, generally accepted aerodynamics rules said that honey-bees could not fly; observation disproved the theory; observation does not prove WHY they fly, only that they do. The "at the scale of a honeybee, the size and strength of the vortext generates enoguh lift to make it fly" model has yet to be disproven; t may not be the total truth, but it predicts that bees fly, bees generate vortices, and bees generate lift; these are in fact the observations. We can't directly mechanically test this (we can't make powerful enough machines at that scale yet), so we test observationally; some refuters claim that the media introduced to visualize the vortices affect the outcome, but they are generally not given much creedednce.

science is a belief system. an incomplete one. It doesn't preclude a divine being nor impacts thereof, but it does in fact require a set of beliefs.

Modern science is so developed that it is beyond individual expirimentalism, and in fact refutess much of the observed behaviour outside the origination scale of that observation. (IE, you can't predict atomic interactions by observing billiad balls).
 
True, but The Lord of the Rings trilogy was not about "language, censorship, religion, rationalism". Trying to portray religion realistically in a game setting is a bit dicey anyway. Which is why we are having this discussion.
In a way it is, but that's a little deeper than I'd get into here.
Part of this has to do with attempting to make MTU as realistic as possible. And maybe you have a point about "carding God" conceeding the question as to whether God exists. But I should point out that such is MY response to the claim by another as to their divine status/nature/existence. If there is no claim to divinity, (or alternately speaking for divinity), then there is no need to card them.

Or to put it another way, "Why does God need a starship?"
;) Well, God doesn't but we do. And we'll take our beliefs with us wherever we go, and how god(s) and our beliefs define good is part of it. For Hinduism it is very much a matter of each god defining good, conflicting with other gods, yet complimenting other gods. Death and rebirth, life and destruction. Even irreligious Europeans will take the moribund vestiges of historic Christianity with them.

When it comes to it, it doesn't matter whether any religion is true, only that people incorporate belief in their culture.
 
Old theories don't change until and unless there is evidence existing theories are broken. O
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Actually they do quite often. Don't people always talk about "old-fashioned ideas" as if there is something degrading about being old-fashioned. And I am not aware of any great and new discovery which made scientists believe in the possibility of alien life when once they dismised it's possiblity.
Be that as it may it is not such a stretch of imagination to assume that said new evidence is found. Not least because I find the idea that faster-than-light is not conceivably possible to be a bit presumptuous(note I say this statement with knowledge of my own lack of qualification in this particular field).
There are examples from before. I'm sure that 1400's scientists(who by the way were not by nature superstitious idiots) felt the same way when they said that it is impossible for human life to survive at the equator.
Finnally the nature of the concept of theory is that it can change. To take them too seriously leaves you in danger of looking like a fool when the next discovery(or change in fashion comes).
 
Please note that Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic, had no problem crafting his Middle Earth with nearly no reference to the Lord, simply because of the way he approached the matter. It wasn't a question of what's real or not, but rather something else which I can't remember (because I'm not in tune with the whole issue).
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What about Eru/Illuvatar?


Tolkien makes few references to religion in LotR but he does construct an elaborate "Middle Earth Religion" in his background writings.
 
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