Bad Free Trader

[kilmore]

It seems to me that there aren't many legal boundaries to the behavior of civilian starship crews aside from smuggling, piracy, and stealing the ship. As far as I can see, even murder on board the ship isn't against the law.

By and large, most traders try to keep a good reputation, as a bad reputation can travel faster than Jump-1. But in frontier zones, there may be more travellers than ships to carry them and some ships may profit by exploiting their passengers.

Some things I can think of...
1. Skimping on life support: feeding the passengers crappy food, not recharging the atmosphere enough, saves a couple hundred credits per passenger.

2. Indiscriminate double berthing: without regard to species and sex.

3. Secretly recording within staterooms: possibly for sale to shady a/v producers at starports.

4. Hidden fees: for debarkation, retrieval of passenger's cargo, etc.

None of these are activities recommended for a ship that still needs to make monthly payments. But for a scuzzy old trader on the fringes that rarely makes the same port twice and can sell middle passage for less than five grand, it may be viable.

Do the passengers have any legal recourse at all? Or do they just post a hot little note on the local Angie's List?

 

[atpollard]

Do the passengers have any legal recourse at all? Or do they just post a hot little note on the local Angie's List?

They can hire Mercs to settle the problem ... I smell an adventure.

 

[aramis]

It seems to me that there aren't many legal boundaries to the behavior of civilian starship crews aside from smuggling, piracy, and stealing the ship. As far as I can see, even murder on board the ship isn't against the law.
[...]
Do the passengers have any legal recourse at all? Or do they just post a hot little note on the local Angie's List?

From various sources in CT/MT/T20:
We know there is an "Imperial Ministry of Trade".
We know that prices are fixed at a barely profitable rate for a pure-hauler J1 design. Including some expenses (Fuel, LS).
We know that there are inspections.
We know that local laws of the world of registry apply on ship.

These imply some form of regulation not explicitly shown.

indiscriminate double berthing: get what you pay for... caveat emptor.

Skimping on LS: requires RP-mode handling... once the rep is out, I'd hit 'em with a penalty for finding passengers...

Vid recording: only a problem if unlawful on a given ship's homeworld, or if they're an imperial noble... the former, you sue them or press charges on their homeworld's legal basis. The latter, well, a few quick complaints and the harassment ensues: last in the repair cues, deliveries a day later than rolled, etc., as a favor to the local noble.

Hidden fees: subsumed in the same authority that price fixes passage, fuel, LS, and maintenance costs. REAL quick way to get your commercial tags pulled IMTU...

 

[samuelvss]

IIRC, there are scattered references to Imperial regulations in canon.

I agree with Aramis that clearly there IS a body of regulations assumed, and as facilitating interstellar trade is one of the Imperium's most important functions, they are probably comprehensive. They are probably not oppressive enough to restrict trade, but enough to make it a mutually attractive proposition.

As to the passengers having no recourse, IMTU at an A or B starport, there would likely be some pointy-headed imperial bureaucrat to complain to, who could take swift action.

I guess the real issue is some poor slob be hauled from a Class C to a Class E starport. Now here is where a trader's reputation would be important, and one can assume that some sort of rating systems would exist. This would be an excellent function that the TAS could also fulfil. 1 Cr paid to each passenger who fills out a survey, and a fee of 5Cr to check out up to 5 traders. This would not keep some traders from trying to outrun the bad reports, but it would give potential passengers some options to try to avoid such riff-raff.

 

[whartung]

Well, here on Planet Dirt, ships are under the jurisdiction of the flag that they sail under. They're never in an extra-legal state. Dunno if traders fly a particular planets flag, or an Imperial flag, or what. But I think that's a good start.

I do not believe that passengers are at the legal whim of the commander and crew of the ship with no civil or criminal recourse. Sure there are outback, frontier areas, but there's a lot more area that aren't. Pretty sure a ship can't simply show up at a destination with a passenger missing from the manifest without someone taking notice.

 

[rancke]

From various sources in CT/MT/T20:
We know there is an "Imperial Ministry of Trade".
We know that prices are fixed at a barely profitable rate for a pure-hauler J1 design. Including some expenses (Fuel, LS).
We know that there are inspections.
We know that local laws of the world of registry apply on ship.

These imply some form of regulation not explicitly shown.

We don't know that the fixed prices is anything but a game artifact. Common sense and various canonical facts (such as the existence of jump-3 and jump-4 merchant shipping) argues that the price fixing is not real. But other than that, you're right. Imperial law does apply to starships.

It's also quite possible that the law of the world where the ship is registered likewise apply.


Hans

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Traveller Aid Society would also be able tell you which trader have a less than stellar rating.

 

[sabredog]

They can hire Mercs to settle the problem ... I smell an adventure.

I concur..its at least a good excuse for a fistfight and maybe change of ownership if the players are getting cheated. But that depends on how far on the raggedy edge you are. But I doubt that its easy to get legal remedies to apply to Free Traders unless they jump along a short string of worlds and you knew for certain they would be cruising back that way so you could sue them or something.

In Vance's book, The Face, (the first of the Demon Princes stories) the protagonist draws he attention of the bad guy by seizing what is ostensibly a Free Trader of sorts because as the protagonist's lawyers points out, "Such ships inevitably trail a myriad petty and minor charges and infractions behind them as they move from world to world that no one wants to bother with the expense and trouble to pursue." Gersen lays liens on one of those - some minor fee unpaid and the tale goes from there.

IMTU its the same story: and the players almost always have little things like that following them around that sometimes cause minor trouble (read: empty their pockets at the most inconvenient time) but the above example shows how hard it would be to go after an entity that is always on the move. Its not like you can just zip out after it in a zodiac when it left port.

 

[shield]

One of the old white dwarf adventures had an imperial office responsible for sapceworthiness of vessels and ensuring they had the correct number of lifeboats etc.

Challange Mag also mentioned Imperial Design Packages for common designs to ensure common standards for equipment / interfaces across the empire so that an item built at Vland works at Terra.

This would imply the 3I has sometimes quite extensive regulations on trade (SPA springs to mind) so various safety inspections would pick up the poor food, inadequate life-support etc.

Imperial Ministry of Justice + local police forces and the marines will do law enforcement. I think I remember somewhere that the planet has juridiction up to 100D, everything else is Imperial domain.

I imagine that passengers complaining of inadequate lifesupport and very dubious food are the bread and butter of all those SDB and patrol cruiser inspections.

 

[sabredog]

It good fodder for having a few corrupt officials who look for bribes to allow shady cargo or minor violations pass in exchange for a "donation" to the Widows and Orphans Fund. And for the space cops in the equivalent of speed traps who might bust out a tail light (er, nav beacon) to write a crooked ticket so the locals can make some extra revenue.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, here on Planet Dirt, ships are under the jurisdiction of the flag that they sail under. They're never in an extra-legal state. Dunno if traders fly a particular planets flag, or an Imperial flag, or what. But I think that's a good start.

I do not believe that passengers are at the legal whim of the commander and crew of the ship with no civil or criminal recourse. Sure there are outback, frontier areas, but there's a lot more area that aren't. Pretty sure a ship can't simply show up at a destination with a passenger missing from the manifest without someone taking notice.

Here in the US of A trucks, planes and vessels don't fly the flag of their states, but are all regulated by both the states in which they travel and the Federal government. A truck hauling a load from from Maine to California would be under Federal Jurisdiction as well as every state through which it traveled.

Ditto with barges travelling over rivers, or cargo jets travelling corridors.

But, the Imperium isn't a Federation, though like the old Commonwealth, probably has some overarching authority; i.e. some basic laws governing commerce, but probably nothing on the misdemeanor level.

Illicit recordings of passengers and crew strikes me as a system to system basis.

 

[Dragoner]

At some point, the only crime is getting caught; though yes, screw over a merc and find a bunch of military types looking for passage next stop. Maybe an Outland type assassin situation, if it's a corporate affair, or a mafioso looking for plausible deniability but if doublecross can hook up a shipment, like machine parts that are really weapons for the Ine Givar that will get tipped off to the police. Outright piracy and murder are covered by the Imperial navy, with the ship seized and the crew stacked in cold sleep for a colonization/rehabilitation project. Adventures all, but maybe not what the players were looking for.

 

[Enoki]

I would say ability to do that depends largely on location of departure and arrival. For example:

Any A or B starport with a tech of 9+ is going to require a flight plan out and require an inbound ship to adhere to a pretty rigid flight plan on arrival. Such systems could normally be expected to have many ships in them along with considerable local traffic. That means there are rules about where your ship can fly and the routes you can take. They are not going to let a ship just wander out and wander in any more that a major airport or sea port would today. A lower tech one might avoid some of this officiousness but, not once the ship lands.

Passengers would have recourse at such a port virtually immediately. If they reported unsafe conditions or poor service the port authorities probably could take action. For one they might demand the equivalent of a flight recorder. Failure to produce one might result in fines, or even impounding of the ship.
I would think such a port would board every ship for a customs inspection and likely have immigration checks and at higher law levels go through the cargo, possibly through the ship itself, and certainly check the passengers and crew carefully.

Such ports would also require that the ship's master produce his / her papers for the ship and other legal documents on arrival along with a manifest and submit to inspection.

The crew might turn in an unscrupulous master for a reward if these were regularly offered.

A ship operating illegally (smuggling, piracy etc.) would almost certainly be far more democratic with regards to the crew conditions and passengers simply on the basis that mutuny is far more likely if they get upset with the way things are going. This is historically true of smugglers and pirates.

Now, a C port would be more dicey. Some may be very strict (ie, planet has a high law level and a government type that is likely officious like a civil service bureaucracy) while others may be thoroughly corrupt and bribeable.

E and X wouldn't be a problem as there is no port as such. But, I would suspect that a ship headed to such destinations other than as an intermediate stop would be engaged in likely somewhat questionable business anyway.

 

[Icosahedron]

I think Enoki is right here. I would imagine there is a regulatory body for imperial trade and it probably issues a licence to trade. If your ship isn't up to standard, you licence can get revoked, or your ship impounded until you bring it up to scratch. However, on frontier worlds you may be able to outrun the bad news. Never visiting a class C+ world for fear of getting impounded could ruin your business as easily as having your licence revoked, though.
It may be something you could get away with occasionally, if you had a bad month, but I doubt if you could outrun the law in the long term.

 

[sabredog]

Not to get too far off track here, but every time I read the title of this thread I have the urge to hit a Vargr merchant on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

 

[aramis]

Here in the US of A trucks, planes and vessels don't fly the flag of their states, but are all regulated by both the states in which they travel and the Federal government. A truck hauling a load from from Maine to California would be under Federal Jurisdiction as well as every state through which it traveled.

Ditto with barges travelling over rivers, or cargo jets travelling corridors.

But, the Imperium isn't a Federation, though like the old Commonwealth, probably has some overarching authority; i.e. some basic laws governing commerce, but probably nothing on the misdemeanor level.

Illicit recordings of passengers and crew strikes me as a system to system basis.

Tucks do bear the state of registry: on the tags. Only US Government vehicles don't have state registry plates. ANd federal regs have standardized a lot more recently than they used to.
Aircraft are federally registered. (Treaty requirement)
Blue water craft are solely federal reqs and international treaties, only inland watercraft are routinely subject to stat regs aside from taxes and allowed operational zones. inland (Green water) craft are subject to state registry as well as federal...

 

[Blue Ghost]

Tucks do bear the state of registry: on the tags. Only US Government vehicles don't have state registry plates. ANd federal regs have standardized a lot more recently than they used to.
Aircraft are federally registered. (Treaty requirement)
Blue water craft are solely federal reqs and international treaties, only inland watercraft are routinely subject to stat regs aside from taxes and allowed operational zones. inland (Green water) craft are subject to state registry as well as federal...

Come on, a CA license plate isn't the same as flying the CA Bear flag, and claiming "allegiance" or "citizenship" from that state for the purpose of law enforcement.

 

[aramis]

Come on, a CA license plate isn't the same as flying the CA Bear flag, and claiming "allegiance" or "citizenship" from that state for the purpose of law enforcement.

No, but it is VERY close; it says "this vehicle is taxed by and approved for driving on roads by the state." It lacks the extraterrtoriality of a flagged vessel, but that's about it.

If my vehicles passes registration, and I drive it to CA, CA can't stop me from driving it for 90 days (due to federal law, unless I go to reregister it as a CA vehicle, or am active duty military permanent party, in which case it's 30 days), even tho it won't pass CA emissions tests.

But my Alaska right to privacy won't apply, as that would be extraterritorial.

 

[BillDowns]

If my vehicles passes registration, and I drive it to CA, CA can't stop me from driving it for 90 days (due to federal law, unless I go to reregister it as a CA vehicle, or am active duty military permanent party, in which case it's 30 days), even tho it won't pass CA emissions tests.

When I was stationed 3 years in San Diego for the Navy, my official place of residence was Texas and I never had any issues with my Texas plates and inspection. I did not even have to register my handgun, though I did as a courtesy. IIRC, it was considered no different whether I was there for 3 days or 3 years.

 

[whartung]

But, the Imperium isn't a Federation, though like the old Commonwealth, probably has some overarching authority; i.e. some basic laws governing commerce, but probably nothing on the misdemeanor level.

I was talking about deep water vessels on the high seas out side of a states territorial waters.

I don't know the details, but basically the laws of the flag country basically in effect on any ship on the high seas. How they're enforced is a different matter, but it certainly possible for a party on the ship to be detained and turned over to the authorities even for a misdemeanor, it's more a matter of whether the ships commander will bother vs just telling people to stop being idiots.

But, even then, basically the Commander may have the power of enforcement, but can't make laws wholesale and is himself subject to the laws. But obviously there are details about what can and can't be done on a ship at sea vs delaying it until they reach a land based authority.