Bad Free Trader

[Lycanorukke]

I could see there being a place for a law office that has bureaus in multiple starports that primarily exist to sue free traders.

In which case you do what ships today do - register at a port who doesn't ask to many questions, is cheap and doesn't give a damn about fancy lawyers 20 parsecs away.

Or even better, register at a Vargr port. By the time the lawyers send their 'letter of complaint', the prior registar general lost his charisma and is now the janitor, and the local corsair captain who is now the registar needs some new reading material for the fresher.

Assuming of course the 'State of Registry' in the Extents even exists anymore.

 

[atpollard]

In which case you do what ships today do - register at a port who doesn't ask to many questions, is cheap and doesn't give a damn about fancy lawyers 20 parsecs away.

Or even better, register at a Vargr port. By the time the lawyers send their 'letter of complaint', the prior registar general lost his charisma and is now the janitor, and the local corsair captain who is now the registar needs some new reading material for the fresher.

Assuming of course the 'State of Registry' in the Extents even exists anymore.

I would be uncomfortable going on a cruise (real world) in a ship registered to North Korea or Somalia.

I suspect Vargr registry would impact profitability at Imperial ports.

 

[aramis]

How would a passenger be able to find out a ship's registry? How can they find out whether it is owned by the captain or a bank? I could see the registry being broadcast with the transponder, at least until the Virus.

The Registry Port would be something readily marked on the ship &/or it's IFF, even AFTER the Virus.

Most current real world water vessels mark the registry across the aft, just under the ship's name. That's mostly custom, tho some nations require marking it it as part of registration. Likewise, it's a major issue to fly the incorrect national flag from what's registered... unless you have permission from both the flagging nation and your registry nation. And on the the high seas, you're usually treated as being part of whichever nation's flag is being flown.

Even aircraft have their nation of registry READILY transmitted... it's the first 1-3 characters of the tail number! Aircraft registries do limit foreign authority over the aircraft... less so than boats, more so than cars.

The ownership is much trickier. The ship's "Registered Owner" is not the bank, unless the bank has repossessed it OR bought-in as a partner-investor. (Both of which happen in both the OTU and real world. Subsidy contract is essentially a form of partner-investor.) Finding out if it is owned clear is a matter of checking the title for a lien-holder... or an escrow holder... It's also not something that is going to be generally sought.

Unless suing.

 

[whartung]

If a modern boat is flying no flags, or more than one flag, it can basically be legally boarded by any State for inspection, and that can happen anywhere (including the high seas).

If they're flying a single flag, it gets a little bit more wiggly. But if a Nations Navy decides it wants to board you, your likely best off simply complying with them and bringing the issue up later with your State Department.

A anecdotal example, of questionable authority, is the opening of "Clear and Present Danger" where the Columbian hit team was on a yacht being pursued by a US Coast Guard vessel. One of the boarders ran to the back to fly the Mexican flag, and the CG said, effectively, "Sorry, you're a US Flagged ship and we're boarding you.". The could easily see the name of the ship and it was (apparently) home ported in New Orleans. Without going through a bunch of red tape, that's likely effective enough probably cause for the CG.

Also, note whenever you see a cruise line commercial, they typically say, or note in small print under what flag the ships operate. Many operate out of Liberia, a flag of convenience since it has liberal laws or taxes or whatever well suited to commercial ocean vessels, kind of like Delaware in the US is the "home" of a large amount of corporations.

 

[Enoki]

Some interesting ideas to throw at players, but I think it would be fairly standard practice to make sure you know the regs for the worlds you're visiting. Anything else would be professional incompetence.

As a player, I would expect a Ref to assume as standard that my trader character is doing his job properly, and only throw things like this in if it's reasonable that my character wouldn't know.

A sudden strike may be valid, but a period of industrial unrest usually precedes strikes, and the possibility of strikes would be known amongst the trading community.

New regulations are possible, but legislation usually takes months to negotiate and the broad nature of the proposed new regs (if not the exact details) will be known parsecs away, months in advance on the trader grapevine.

As a Referee, my first question would be 'why don't the characters know about this?' and I would only throw it in if I could come up with a good answer.

I would think it would depend on a combination of the chararcter's skill, access to information and, the scenario. If you have a party moving through an area that they would be unfamiliar with, say transiting several worlds they have never been to before, the chances of a problem increase. If the captain, merchant, or other 'pros' are low skill levels or lack access to things like a TAS database their chances of problems increase.

For a player it can be a problem when they are using a character whose skills and skill levels are completely out of their own depth in the real world. As an more clear example you might have someone who is technically and mechanically inept but they are playing a character who is supposedly a highly skilled engineer. This will be a big stretch for them as they have little experiance of their own to use with such a character. It could be a problem for a refree too.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Ships are extraterritorial. That is, a ship is always considered part of its registered home country.

So, it all depends upon what the laws of the registry world permit the captain. If they grant him permission to hold a hearing, he holds the hearing. If they grant him permission to search and seize, he can do so. If they say he's got to hold the suspect in quarters until turned over at the next port, well, that's what he has to do. And if he doesn't, file a complaint with his registrar world. THEY can pull his registry, or worse...

Do we know that about the Imperium?

 

[whartung]

Do we know that about the Imperium?

No we don't, but the point is simply that if we've learned anything in the past hundred years, for good or ill, civilizations advance on the back of their lawyers. Advanced societies do not work well without laws and enforcement.

So, basically, canon or no, for a level of society at the advance state and sophistication that is the Imperium, there's no way that there just some arbitrary anarchy at work flying between the stars. That entire domain, particularly because of the importance of trade to the Imperium, is going to be pretty highly regulated.

Devils in the details, but there's something there, and it's not simply Captains word goes. Rather, it's going to be the Captain is the State (Imperial, planetary, whatever) representative with some kind of enforcement and possibly prosecution powers.

 

[Enoki]

No we don't, but the point is simply that if we've learned anything in the past hundred years, for good or ill, civilizations advance on the back of their lawyers. Advanced societies do not work well without laws and enforcement.

I'd say that while law enforcement and a court system are necessary, lawyers are not. In fact, I would postulate that as technology advances their need in society would decrease to zero.

Why? Because intelligent systems and databases would replace them. No need for a specialist in law when any computer terminal would provide the same function. If advocates were needed in courts a person could simply have someone as their represenative chosen by them on the basis of confidence in their ability rather than their possession of a piece of paper saying they graduated from a school.

On other things.... I would assume that there are commercial and other treaties among worlds and systems as well as the various empires in the game. For example, I would think there are a generalized set of "rules of the road" for starship and even spaceship operation. On busier worlds I would expect there to be the equivalent of lanes of navigation that ships have to remain in when closer to a planet than some specified distance.
I would also think there are like universal codes a ship can use for various situations much like they did in the early days of radio. Something like RRRR for a raider (the used code around WW 1), or PPPP for pirates, things like that.

So, a ship entering a busy technologically advanced system would probably be required to immediately identify itself to local controllers, then state its intentions and, then follow the rules of navigation in moving to the starport or elsewhere in the system.

I could even see such systems telling a ship that they have to rendevous with a customs / revenue vessel before proceeding to refuel at a gas giant as there is a local tax on that activity. Why would a system government give fuel away for free when it is a ready source of outside revenue?

 

[Icosahedron]

It strikes me that everyone is projecting our own balkanised thinking onto the Imperium. We have national registrations and flags of convenience simply because there is no alternative on Earth today.

IMO, all ships would be extraterritorial and would be registered to the Imperium. A set of interstellar 'maritime' laws would have been drawn up millennia ago and these would hold aboard ships and starports everywhere. They would form the basis of Imperial Law. Beyond the extrality line, the planetary laws would hold and would differ to a greater or lesser extent from the Imperial 'norm', but in space, and in the ships and ports that are an extension of space, Imperial Law would hold.

 

[stealth]

Canon?

Doesn't canon law state that the planet's rule themselves, and the Imperium controls the space between stars, including the star-ports with their extrality zones? So the Imperium makes the shipping rules, not planets.

If anything, planets can only control tariffs and quotas for goods and people.

It makes a kind of sense, too.

 

[Enoki]

It strikes me that everyone is projecting our own balkanised thinking onto the Imperium. We have national registrations and flags of convenience simply because there is no alternative on Earth today.

IMO, all ships would be extraterritorial and would be registered to the Imperium. A set of interstellar 'maritime' laws would have been drawn up millennia ago and these would hold aboard ships and starports everywhere. They would form the basis of Imperial Law. Beyond the extrality line, the planetary laws would hold and would differ to a greater or lesser extent from the Imperial 'norm', but in space, and in the ships and ports that are an extension of space, Imperial Law would hold.

Would that include ships operating in Imperial space but registered to outside systems or governmental presences like say the Mische Conglomerate or Loyal Nineworlds Republic, Glimmerdrift Trade Consortium, Ral Rantha, Darria / Darrian, Sword Worlds, etc? As on Earth I would think these different groups would come to some generally agreed standard of operation as minimal requirements.
I could see some holding higher standards than others and some being told that their minimal standard isn't good enough to operate in another territory for example. So, such a ship could operate in its own territory just fine but may be told it cannot do so in another territory or the Imperium as a result.

 

[sabredog]

I think we have forgotten about the fact that the original point was talking about Free Traders, not flagged commercial lines.

IMHO Free Traders are exactly as they sound: non-flagged, independent "tramp freighter" types who operate on their own and without the umbrella of Imperial or otherwise protection except for maybe within certain boundaries (like inside Imperial space, but not out in the reaches). These are the ones who will travel off the Mains and the authorities may not be as likely to go looking for them if they miss their timetable ("Those Free Traders never follow a flight plan and are always trying to get away with something. We'll wait a little longer then go looking.")

So these types I would see as more likely to not always have all the correct paperwork, know how to skate the usual red tape, who to bribe if needed to get the local Teamsters to help unload the cargo quietly and/or quickly, etc..

So I don't think worrying about all the rules, flags, treaties, and such is all that pertinent to these guys. Isn't that why Free Traders exist as a character type (and with its attendant shadier skills) in addition to the more legitimate Merchant?

 

[Blue Ghost]

No we don't, but the point is simply that if we've learned anything in the past hundred years, for good or ill, civilizations advance on the back of their lawyers. Advanced societies do not work well without laws and enforcement.

So, basically, canon or no, for a level of society at the advance state and sophistication that is the Imperium, there's no way that there just some arbitrary anarchy at work flying between the stars. That entire domain, particularly because of the importance of trade to the Imperium, is going to be pretty highly regulated.

Devils in the details, but there's something there, and it's not simply Captains word goes. Rather, it's going to be the Captain is the State (Imperial, planetary, whatever) representative with some kind of enforcement and possibly prosecution powers.

I think it might be better to state that civs advance with the cooperation of its given members; i.e. the Vikings didn't have many lawyers, nor did Hammurabi... plethora of other counter examples.

And the same social mechanism might be at work here reinforced with some basic laws of commerce. Given the description of the Imperium in "the bible" of the LBBs, the Imperium is a diaspora in many vast regions, while fairly uniform in other parts. Therefore, I think it more accurate to say that certain vast regions are probably as you describe (Core as a for instance), but the Spinward Marches and like sectors would only have such uniformity among segments of systems.

Other systems, wanting to maintain political autonomy in some form, would not be as cooperative. Such systems might grant governor or monarchical like powers to captains originating from their worlds.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Enoki]

I think we have forgotten about the fact that the original point was talking about Free Traders, not flagged commercial lines.

IMHO Free Traders are exactly as they sound: non-flagged, independent "tramp freighter" types who operate on their own and without the umbrella of Imperial or otherwise protection except for maybe within certain boundaries (like inside Imperial space, but not out in the reaches). These are the ones who will travel off the Mains and the authorities may not be as likely to go looking for them if they miss their timetable ("Those Free Traders never follow a flight plan and are always trying to get away with something. We'll wait a little longer then go looking.")

So these types I would see as more likely to not always have all the correct paperwork, know how to skate the usual red tape, who to bribe if needed to get the local Teamsters to help unload the cargo quietly and/or quickly, etc..

So I don't think worrying about all the rules, flags, treaties, and such is all that pertinent to these guys. Isn't that why Free Traders exist as a character type (and with its attendant shadier skills) in addition to the more legitimate Merchant?

I think that is a reasonable position given that such a trader also avoids the more developed portion of the universe so-to-speak. That is, a Free Trader is working non-Imperial systems that are unaligned, the edges and backwaters of the Imperium itself, smaller collections of worlds that are less well governed or willing to tolerate a certain amount of graft in return for technology etc.