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Best Traveller Variant for Small Ship Battles?

Mako

SOC-12
I have CT, and have been looking at them, as well as some other postings for playing a bit of space combat with the smaller vessels, e.g. free traders, far traders, close escorts, fighters, etc.

I've run across a number of damage variants listed here (like for High Guard, etc.), and in the original rules.

So, I'm curious as to which combat damage rules people like best, for these smaller vessels (CT, MT, High Guard, T5, etc.), with the following points I'm interested in:

1. determining which hits only damage the surface of a vessel, and which penetrate (I don't see any rules for that, other than for armored vessels, but would like to include them - perhaps giving all vessels at least a 1 Armor rating?);

2. having the percentage chance for damage location mimic that of the different vessels (I've seen some where they do this based upon tonnage allocated to various things, like: bridge, fuel tanks, maneuver drives, cargo holds, etc., as a percentage of the overall vessel's size); and,

3. having critical hit chances as well. One of the combat results tables listed more criticals, e.g. engines permanently damaged, etc., since it was either a D10 table, or a 2D6 one, which provided a wider variety of options than the 1D6 critical hit chart.

In one of the battle damage accounts, it appears that each successful hit knocked out 1 ton of whatever area it hit (missiles did 1D6 tons of damage, for each hit).

I don't recall seeing any spaceship combat battle damage examples in the LBBs of CT, so am wondering how people handle the above.

Depending upon which battle report I read, and/or version of the rules, there are a number of discrepencies, e.g. in CT, only one missile, OR one sandcaster charge can be fired per 16.7 minute turn (even if it is a triple turret, apparently), per turret. That seems a little slow to me.

However, the rules do state if you have more excess power, two pulse or beam laser shots can be fired per 16.7 minute turn.

In other accounts I've read, it appears that each weapon of a turret can be fired once/turn, say, a triple turret can fire two missiles and one sandcaster charge in a turn. That seems to make a bit more sense to me, since otherwise, why have a triple turret, if you can only fire one barrel/turn, anyway?

So, how many missiles, sandcaster charges, and/or laser shots do you permit each multi-barreled turret to fire, per turn?

I've also seen conflicting info on the missiles, and the damage they do. In the CT LBB rules, it states that when a missile hits its target, it does 1D6 damage, and that you roll for each DP achieved to determine the hit locations.

In another rules battle account I've read, all damage from a single missile (again 1D6) is allocated to the same location, in terms of tons subtracted from the vessel, and if more damage is done than tonnage is present, then any additional DPs spill over into an adjacent area.

Finally, when crew casualties occur, do you assume all the crew are killed (assuming perhaps they weren't wearing vacc suits), or do you roll 1D6, or 2D6 to determine the number of casualties?

I don't see any mention of that in the rules, other than that if an explosive decompression occurs in a section the crew are occupying, those wearing not wearing vacc suits may die, if they don't get them on in time (must roll a skill check and succeed to avoid death).

So, how do you handle crew casualties.

Any recommendations on which variant(s) of Traveller for small, RPG-scale spaceship battles are appreciated (perhaps a vessel or three per side, and/or three to four fighters, if that is a good number, vs. a vessel, or three).

Looking for a decent level of interesting play, but without it being too onerous to conduct, primarily with vessels of 1,000 - 1,200 tons, or less, and most being in the 30 - 400 ton range, I suspect.
 
Do you want to run your ship combat as a tabletop game or are you more interested in a role playing experience for your players - or a blend of the two?
 
Most likely, just a tabletop minis battle.

May simplify, abstract, or remove all the various skill die modifiers.
 
Most likely, just a tabletop minis battle.

May simplify, abstract, or remove all the various skill die modifiers.

In that case... Second choice: use CT Bk2, but using a hex grid and movement mechanics from Mayday.

My first choice isn't available. It would be the MGT playtest mechanics.
 
Most likely, just a tabletop minis battle.


At least that question is easy to answer! You're looking for CT's LBB:2 and/or Mayday, Power Projection:Escort, or Squadron Strike. You can find threads about the last two on the wargames board.

Your first post was all over the place, I couldn't make head nor tails of which combat system you were talking about. The best I can guess is that you've got them all mixed up together, so I'll try and answer by topic. Here goes...

Hits: In LBB:2 and Mayday a hit is a hit. The target has been hit and the next question is whether damage occurs. In LBB:2, some system will always be effected, there are no negligible hits. In Mayday, negligible hits occur but cumulative hits also count. So hits which did no specific damage can be combined to destroy a target. In HG2, a hit only represents the possibility of damage. In order to inflict damage, the hit must penetrate first.

Penetration: The HG2 term "penetration" doesn't refer to penetrating the hull. Instead it means that a potential hit has penetrated the target's various defenses. (Armor isn't one of those defenses as it effects the damage roll and not the to-hit and to-penetrate rolls.) In LBB:2 all hits penetrate because they all effect "internal' components. In Mayday, all but NE hits penetrate.

Damage: In LBB:2, all hits cause damage and any hit can potentially be a critical hit. In Mayday, some hits can cause negligible damage but cumulative hits within a turn or over 3 turns can destroy the target. In HG2, the type of weapon determines the type of damage. Some weapons roll on certain damage tables, some weapons roll on multiple damage tables. Armor levels can effect some of those rolls and some rolls can trigger critical damage.

Launching: Each of the three CT ship combat games handle launches differently because each of the three games are designed for different uses in mind.

In LBB:2 and as long as the proper programs are running, you can launch as many missiles and sand canisters as the vessel has launchers. LBB:2 also allows any number of small craft to be launched in a turn. This is because the LBB:2 system is meant for roleplaying ship combat.

In Mayday, all turrets are assumed to be single weapon turrets and only one missile, sand canister, or small craft can be launched in a single turn. This is because Mayday is a Series 120 meant to played in under 120 minutes. The game has been deliberately simplified and limiting launches is part of that simplicity.

In HG2, all missile batteries which are bearing and all sand batteries can be fired each turn while small craft launches are limited in various ways. This is because, as I once read here, HG2 is a game meant to handle large battles between large numbers of large ships with large numbers of weapons.

Missile Damage: LBB:2 has missile hits inflicting 1D6 damage rolls. Mayday has missiles inflicting different numbers of hits/damage rolls depending on their detonation system. HG2 has missile battery hits rolling on a damage table with the possibility of a critical hit occurring.

Crew Casualties: Both LBB:2 and Mayday have explicit systems for determining specific crew casualties depending on hit locations. HG2 uses a more global method because, again, it deals with larger numbers of everything.

Subtracting tons for each hit: I don't know where you got this from. HG2 hits spill fuel by the ton, but no damage system "subtracts" tonnage from a ship for each hit.

Finally, all the "conflicting" information you've found is a result of your mistakenly comparing different combat systems which were designed for different purposes. It's the old "apples to oranges" problem.

Hope all this helped somewhat.
 
Hmmmm, I was going to consider putting down a very foreshortened version of my mutant LBB2/HG rules (I feel no need to say HG2 because HG1 should be The Rules That Shall Not Be Named).

However, while the ship size is about right with a more nuanced armor/penetration system that is more complex and mini oriented then HG, my rules are designed for roleplay and specifically tactics/ship design/engineering drama, with phasing and interaction rules geared to crew roleplay and a general theme of Space Is Hard.

I have players that are hardcore naval minis/Star Fleet Battles/Starfire vets, so that sort of complexity and detail is right up their alley. I'm not sure given your play objectives that it's for you.
 
Hits: In LBB:2 and Mayday a hit is a hit. The target has been hit and the next question is whether damage occurs.

Not whether, but where, the damage occurs.

A hull hit isn't "no damage" but "no function loss."

Note that 4 hull hits in Mayday results in frame destruction.

The 1st one in Bk2 results in depressurization.
 
TNE's is the most detailed. With the "death from a thousand pins" lasers poking holes in to any of the 20 hit locations on the ship, most everything else starts at the surface and works down.

TNE is limited to lasers, PA and Meson Guns (since missiles are basically treated as one shot laser platforms). Mind, there's nothing stopping you from shooting most anything at a starship, given the generic penetration + damage combat system. If you want to shoot Depleted Uranium Sabot rounds at each other, it'll accommodate - but there will be issue with the ranges involved.

Brilliant Lances is the table top version offering hexes and maneuvering to TNEs range band system, but the damage systems are pretty much the same.

TNE is quite detailed though, has a bit of book keeping as everything (notable) in the ship has damage points to be ablated rather than simply killed or not killed.

And obviously, it doesn't use Book 2 for construction. But the system in BL isn't bad, a simplified one from Fire, Fusion, and Steel with some pre-made weapons to plug in to the ships.
 
Not whether, but where, the damage occurs. A hull hit isn't "no damage" but "no function loss."


Yup, it's both where and whether in both systems.

In LBB:2 for example, the first hull hit decompresses the entire hull (something I always found odd) while additional hull hits have no effect. It's similar for turret hits. Because you dice to determine which turret gets hit when a turret hit is rolled, a previously hit and incapacitated turret can be hit again for no effect.

Thus a hit can roll a "where" that produces no damage, so it's "where" the hit lands and then "whether" damage occurs.

In Mayday, the "where" roll can produce a "No Effect" result for "negligible" damage. However, as you point out regarding any hit including "No Effect" hits...

Note that 4 hull hits in Mayday results in frame destruction.

... and three hits of any kind over three consecutive turns will do the same.

But, "No Effect" hits which don't trigger those two cumulative hit cases cause negligible or no damage. Furthermore, hits to previously incapacitated components don't cause additional damage those components so, if the cumulative cases aren't triggered, no damage is the result again.

Which means that in Mayday, as with LBB:2, a hit can roll a "where" which produces no damage. So, it's a question of both "where" the hit lands and then "whether" damage occurs.

The 1st one in Bk2 results in depressurization.

Any additional hits to the hull don't "add" to that depressurization, so again the "where" can produce a question of "whether" damage occurs or not. (With 6 or 7 on 2D6 resulting in hull hits on starships and non-starships, a big chunk of hits in Mayday are going to result in no damage.)

And I still don't know where Mako got that "One hit = one ton subtracted" idea. :( Is it in MgT?
 
And I still don't know where Mako got that "One hit = one ton subtracted" idea. :( Is it in MgT?

Nope. Well, not exactly.

MT has Tons÷15 to inop and Tons÷5 further to destruction.
Drives are the same, but additional pools. so 1.333 hits per 5 tons.

Note that damage in tons of systems is a reasonable extrapolation of Book 2... so reasonable that Hunter, myself, and at least a dozen other people came up with it...
Hunters (and my) numbers are 1 hit =
  • 5 tons of Jump Drive
  • 3 tons of PP
  • 2 tons of MD
  • 20 tons of cargo
  • 20 tons of quarters
  • 20 tons of low berths and emergency low berths
  • 10 tons of a major gun
  • 1 weapon mount of under 10 tons
  • 10 tons of a screen mount
  • 1 ton of armor (only on a crit, can reduce armor rating)
Hull hits and computers are where Hunter and I diverged. I always used 1 per 100 for hull. Hunters original numbers were IIRC 25 hull tons. Both of us derived them from the 4 hits in Mayday. I used 1 ton per hit for computers. I don't recall how hunter handled it.
I also added bridge: 1 hit per 20 tons.

The thing is, doing it this way allows using High Guard ships in CT Bk2 combat, and that was part of the early drafts of T20. How to hit armor, however....
I solved it by creating custom hit location tables for each ship.

I put armor in 7, if any mounted. I then go descending order largest to smallest in 7,8,6,9,5,10,4,11,3,12,2; armor gets added to the table again. Computer counts as its tonnage, everything else purely as hits. Turrets vs major weapons and screens are 3 separate hit location entries.
 
In that case... Second choice: use CT Bk2, but using a hex grid and movement mechanics from Mayday.

My first choice isn't available. It would be the MGT playtest mechanics.


I think Wil's suggestion is right on.

But, Wil, I would like you to tell the audience about MGT's playtest rules for ship combat -- at least, where they differ from the published rules.
 
Note that damage in tons of systems is a reasonable extrapolation of Book 2... so reasonable that Hunter, myself, and at least a dozen other people came up with it...


That's a great system! Thanks for sharing it!

And let me join the chorus asking about the MgT playtest mechanics. :D
 
You nerds are going to make me reveal my system.


Asking us to ask you, especially in that passive-aggressive manner, is rather sad, don't you think?

Either share it with us or not. Suggesting that we need to wag our tails first is insulting.
 
I think Wil's suggestion is right on.

But, Wil, I would like you to tell the audience about MGT's playtest rules for ship combat -- at least, where they differ from the published rules.

1st: They don't compare to the published at all. The following sections were rewritten completely between the 1.3 draft and release: Tasks, Personal Combat, Ship Combat. As in, what was published wasn't playtested as part of the public playtest.

Mongoose still has the file up for draft 3.2: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/Traveller Playtest Doc.pdf

Note that there is a math issue with the draft task system. One that is easily solved, but it's a bit of a problem: the system makes quality and time both higher die is better, so you need the overall roll to be lower is better, but it's higher is better. So, make it roll under 6+DM's, on an unmodified 2d. Time die sets the number of AP remaining after the action. (You could, instead, make time and quality rolls lower is better, but that requires more tables. And note: Quality directly determined damage done. Time was your new AP total.)

Anyway, the ship round was 6 minutes. You didn't always get to act in each round. Changing locations aboard was 1 minute. All other ship combat actions were based upon your roll. Action points climbed by 2 per minute. You only get to act if you have 6 AP. (But you can react if you have 1+ AP).

Everything the ship did also took power. The Engineer got to produce extra power or to boost the drive rating.
The gunners got to aim and shoot.
The pilot maneuvered and (if shot at) dodged. A bad dodge resulted in not being able to maneuver due to low AP.
Captains who weren't piloting got to give AP to others... (Wasn't in the draft, due to a layout error. Quality was the number of characters getting an 1 extra AP.)

The power point system has a flaw; replace the amount generated by 1 per drive letter, and the cost of maneuver drives to 1 per drive letter used (thus on a Type S, 1 Power produces 1G; on a patrol boat it takes 4 power for 1G (as B=1G but A=—), 8 for 2G (D=2G), etc....

When I combined it with mayday movement, it became really incredible. Tense, everyone involved. Accidental overshoots on maneuvers because the pilot dodged. Things like that.
 
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When I combined it with mayday movement, it became really incredible. Tense, everyone involved. Accidental overshoots on maneuvers because the pilot dodged. Things like that.


It sounds great. Especially the enhanced roleplaying aspects. In LBB:2 or Mayday, roleplaying for anyone other than the pilot or gunner(s) usually was limiting to damage control/repair rolls or arguing about which programs to run! ;)

Thanks for the link and the suggestions to go with it.
 
Asking us to ask you, especially in that passive-aggressive manner, is rather sad, don't you think?

Either share it with us or not. Suggesting that we need to wag our tails first is insulting.

Easy there cowboy.

On my part more a reaction to wanting to hold off until I can organize it for the IMTU thread.

But he and the rest of you are talking about a lot of features I have already built in and so a lot more about 'like to hold off but boy I could 'solve' a lot of issues here, if it was closer to his sweet spot of ease of play, which it ain't, but all this ship nerd goodness I love may get me posting prematurely on the topic'.

So, read in what you are inclined to do so without asking what I meant and enjoy your choice to be insulted by your false read of my intent. Long ago I learned that those sort of things say more about the people popping off then about me.
 
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