Beyond Maximum Imperial Tech

[aramis]

But would all provinces have used the same weapon, or would it have been reserved for specific military elements?

Any mechanical system's uniqueness lasts only about as long as the enemy is kept from getting ahold of a working example or two. And as soon as it is shown to be superior, the capturing of a couple for reverse engineering becomes paramount in the eyes of the suffering Generals.

 

[Timerover51]

Mythbusters were told of a myth of ancient China having a hand cranked ballista, basically a rapid fire, slow speed machine gun.

They found some old drawings and managed to get good distance and good hits with it.

I wondered what the Roman empire could have done with such machines ? So it is possible they could have taken the principles of the Uzi, and made a ballista machine gun out of it.

That is not a myth of Ancient China, but a case of their repeating cross bow. There is at least one in the collection of the Royal Armories of the Tower of London that I have seen, and there might be one at the Field Museum in Chicago. I would need to go there and check the Chinese area on that one. I think that there was also one in the traveling Genghis Khan exhibit.

The Romans were never ones to get into missile weapons, as least hand-held ones to any great degree. They had plenty of opportunity to experiment with some of the designs that the Library at Alexandria came up with.

 

[Ulsyus]

The Romans were never ones to get into missile weapons, as least hand-held ones to any great degree. They had plenty of opportunity to experiment with some of the designs that the Library at Alexandria came up with.

That was likely more a function more of troop type and combat technique: western heavy infantry were generally more densely packed than eastern infantry. In the west infantry reigned supreme for centuries before cavalry became the preeminent arm, while in the east the infantry were more often than not levy fill. So the crossbow was a great weapon to give to them, as the west found with peasant levies in the middle ages.

But even if the Romans had come up against an opponent with plenty of missile weapons, when they adapted techniques the foot were again up to the task. For this see how the Byzantines adapted their heavy foot to deal with Sassanids and later Arab missile and mounted troops.

My point there is that having advanced technology isn't a deal-breaker if it can't be employed in a manner that wins the war. Think advanced German technology in 1944 vs the rough and primitive gear fielded by the Soviets.

 

[JimMarn]

A documentary I saw on the Roman invasion of Celtic Britain showed them using ballistas that out ranged the hand thrown spears used by the Celts. This enabled the Romans to take the hill forts. So they were willing to use technology, but evidently not to much technology. Otherwise the repeating ballista would have been in use.

 

[rancke]

A documentary I saw on the Roman invasion of Celtic Britain showed them using ballistas that out ranged the hand thrown spears used by the Celts. This enabled the Romans to take the hill forts. So they were willing to use technology, but evidently not to much technology. Otherwise the repeating ballista would have been in use.

The Romans specialized in siege engines. The legions carried the metal parts for the engines along and had legionaires trained in building them.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'm talking about all of the emperor's minions. As per the Imperium, if there were tech monopolies, than that means the provinces facing the Mongol horde might not have had repeating crossbows, where the central province with the capitol might.

For an environment like the Impreium, where you need your best tech in border regions, and where an antimatter power plant might serve some of your backwater worlds (say Tarsus), I still become confused on that justification for tech limitations.

If world-A has a native population of TL1 or TL2 civilizations, and a jump or two away is some TL12 world with a type A or B port, I can see a desire to limit certain technologies, say weapons, from getting to the natives. But say that world is TL5 through 8, a time when a need for electricity is keenly felt, then I'm curious why they wouldn't be allowed a higher tech level power plant.

But that's just the Imperium. Are their similar limitations in Sol space? Zho space?

 

[rancke]

The usual explanation for lower-tech worlds in contact with higher-tech worlds is that they can't afford to upgrade. They spend their limited interstellar credits on finshed goods for their militaries and social elites and everyone else have to make do with inferior local products.

Another trope is societies that prefer to stick to a certain level of technology.


Hans

 

[Lycanorukke]

But that's just the Imperium. Are their similar limitations in Sol space? Zho space?

The Zhos would likely play it safe as they like nice stable enviroments. Too much new tech too soon may give rise to "deviant thought" due to culture shock.

Soli planets would regulate for a slightly different reason - the last thing you want is for a foreign planet to have you neck when it comes to critical infrastructure - especially if said infrastructure requires you to be dependant on them for materials and fuel.
Also SolSec would love to keep planets who 'have questionable dedication to the cause' out of the tech loop for punishment and leverage.

 

[Ulsyus]

The usual explanation for lower-tech worlds in contact with higher-tech worlds is that they can't afford to upgrade. They spend their limited interstellar credits on finshed goods for their militaries and social elites and everyone else have to make do with inferior local products.

Another trope is societies that prefer to stick to a certain level of technology.


Hans

...or a combination of infrastructure cost, local culture, and import prices combine to make local production of technology, and hence an increase in the local tech level, prohibitive and unlikely. Real-world example could be places like Cambodia or Nigeria.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Which I guess was Marc Miller's thrust when he wrote the game. The Imperium is a kind of reflective analog to 20th century Earth where there are pockets and huge swaths of non-developed countries (worlds) that have no clean water, have open sewers, marauding war bands, corporate interests and what not, and have contact with "the outside world". That, verse actual unexplored territory where you can contact the natives, interact with them, show them fancy gadgets, but they will have no clue as to what it is you're showing them, nor how to react nor use it if you gave it to them.

I think when the rules were written there was a "Trek" like influence in terms of determining a world's Tech Level (contact with new civilizations), verse the interconnectivity that we have today, where getting tech to "darkest Africa" or Bhutan is only a matter of shipping it there, and not a matter of contacting new tribes and establishing relations. But, that as the game has evolved, there is a shift in players' thinking and game's parameters in that tech level doesn't become a descriptor of technological and social development so much as a designation of amenities that might be available.

To me this is very important to determine for the game, because there is this artifact of new world exploration that is the tech level chart for the system generator. Are you exploring a new world, or are you looking for "Gas, Food, and Lodging"?

I can't remember what the T5 book says about tech levels, but if I'm refereeing a game, and my players are out beyond the Imperium in no-mans' land, and say I roll up an ultra tech world, is that ultra tech gong to describe a new alien civilization with magic-like technology, or is it describing some world held by one of the known powers that has bits and pieces of super-tech here and there?

I'm really curious what other people think here.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Okay, let me clarify;

A) Old Traveller; tech-level = alien technological and societal development for a newly contacted world.

B) New Traveller; tech-level = expected quality of local amenities; gas, good, lodging, repairs, software (if any).

I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on this.

 

[robject]

I can't remember what the T5 book says about tech levels [...]

In short, T5 claims that Tech Level approximates the highest order-of-magnitude of productivity of individuals on a world. In practical terms it is the highest level of industry on that world.

T5 sharply contrasts technological level with quality: a high tech item may be of low quality, and vice versa.

 

[rancke]

In short, T5 claims that Tech Level approximates the highest order-of-magnitude of productivity of individuals on a world. In practical terms it is the highest level of industry on that world.

So a mining colony or a trade outpost or a scientific outpost or a military basehas a TL of 0 since it doesn't produce any technological goods?


Hans

 

[robject]

So a mining colony or a trade outpost or a scientific outpost or a military basehas a TL of 0 since it doesn't produce any technological goods?

Hans

So you make me go to the book and therefore correct my assumption.

"The data entry for a world may state that it is TL-10. The Visitors can expect to find TL-10 equipment in common use in society; they can expect that local repair shops can fix TL-10 equipment; they can expect they can find TL-10 devices for sale."

and

"Use Does Not Imply Manufacture. The world TL indicates the expected TL of commonly used equipment. Industrial worlds probably manufacture goods at that TL, but other worlds may not have such manufacturing capability."

(p498)


Now, Blue Ghost's post, however, was asking the meaning of tech levels, to which I badly paraphrased this definition:

"A TL is roughly an order of magnitude increase in capability (across the three measures of technology: labor enhancement, quality improvement, and achievement of impossibilities)."

(p497)

...and oh crap, there's quality mentioned. So I'm wrong twice... and yet, QUALITY as used in Traveller5 is separate from TL.

 

[Blue Ghost]

In short, T5 claims that Tech Level approximates the highest order-of-magnitude of productivity of individuals on a world. In practical terms it is the highest level of industry on that world.

T5 sharply contrasts technological level with quality: a high tech item may be of low quality, and vice versa.

But I guess what I'm asking is how you view and use tech levels in your game.

 

[robject]

But I guess what I'm asking is how you view and use tech levels in your game.

Yeah, I made a complete hash of your question, as Hans managed to point out with one simple sanity test.

 

[rancke]

"The data entry for a world may state that it is TL-10. The Visitors can expect to find TL-10 equipment in common use in society; they can expect that local repair shops can fix TL-10 equipment; they can expect they can find TL-10 devices for sale."

and

"Use Does Not Imply Manufacture. The world TL indicates the expected TL of commonly used equipment. Industrial worlds probably manufacture goods at that TL, but other worlds may not have such manufacturing capability."

(p498)

That pleases me no end. That's the definition of TL that I've been advocating for decades. Far more useful than the old definitions.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

robject; but in your game sessions, was it more like an alien societal descriptor, or a kind of travel guide of what to expect?

 

[Ulsyus]

So a mining colony or a trade outpost or a scientific outpost or a military basehas a TL of 0 since it doesn't produce any technological goods?

Hans

You've used that example before, but it's like the deal-breaker in these discussions

robject; but in your game sessions, was it more like an alien societal descriptor, or a kind of travel guide of what to expect?

In our games it's been the indicator of what's available. I've had no formula to apply, but didn't feel there was any problem with that as the basic means for generating TL on a world is using a random number generator with a few mods.

But if a world had a low population, had good access to a main or wasn't that far from a high population world with good tech, then there's a good chance that it imports a lot of its items. How big is the car industry in Sierra Leone?

Though, is the listed TL the highest available in a system, or the average?

 

[rancke]

You've used that example before, but it's like the deal-breaker in these discussions.

I don't get you.


Hans