Beyond Maximum Imperial Tech

[Timerover51]

"The data entry for a world may state that it is TL-10. The Visitors can expect to find TL-10 equipment in common use in society; they can expect that local repair shops can fix TL-10 equipment; they can expect they can find TL-10 devices for sale."

Hmm, on that basis, what Tech Level would the Solomon Islands be? Outboard motors are commonly used, as are radios, and some computers. The ability to repair radios and computers is essentially nil, and the ability to repair outboard motors is severely limited. It is called "having spare parts". With respect to manufacturing, the answer to that is nil, so are the islands Tech Level 8 or Tech Level 2 to 3?

"Use Does Not Imply Manufacture. The world TL indicates the expected TL of commonly used equipment. Industrial worlds probably manufacture goods at that TL, but other worlds may not have such manufacturing capability."

I go with an approximation for a world to produce a given Tech Level of goods, it requires a minimum population exponent equal to the Tech Level until you reached tens to hundred of millions. That is stretching it a bit for Tech Level 5, as realistically that Tech Level should require a population in the millions if not tens of millions.

 

[Carlobrand]

So a mining colony or a trade outpost or a scientific outpost or a military basehas a TL of 0 since it doesn't produce any technological goods?


Hans

Oh, they probably produce a bit. It's just not the focus of the colony. Could be the mining colony has a small company that manufactures high tech explosives or parts for the fusion microplants of mining buggies or replacement parts for x-ray lasers. It's just that this kind of production is likely to be consumed locally in the course of supporting the colony's primary economic mover. It's not going to even get noticed unless you happen to be a mining company looking for repair parts for your x-ray laser drill.

For me, the tech level represents the culture as a whole. If a mining colony is using TL15 equipment for mining and is trained on TL15 equipment and goes home to use TL15 computers for their community internet, and the local "auto mechanics" and "plumbers" are all trained in handling and repairing TL15 equipment because that's the equipment most common in that culture, then it's a TL15 society. The fact that it mostly exports lanthanum and mostly imports those TL15 goodies does not change the fact that TL15 equipment pervades the society. That "auto mechanic" wouldn't know what to do with a carburetor unless he looked it up on WorldTube, and then he'd be hard pressed to find a source for gasoline.

On the other hand, if the miners are the only ones who use TL15 mining equipment because Interstellar Mining Inc shipped it in to get at the lanthanum, but at the end of the day they go home to Apple-IIe's and internal combustion cars, and the local mechanics wouldn't know what to do with a hydrogen fuel cell car without ordering a paperbound repair manual in from offworld - and one of them ends up in the hospital because he cracked the line to the hydrogen fuel tank without realizing what he was dealing with - then it's clearly not a TL15 world no matter how much TL15 equipment is being used in the mining.

Me, I ask two questions. First, what are most people using? Second, if that stuff breaks, can they find someone to fix it? For at least the more common items like tractors and office computers and passenger vehicles and consumer goods, the answer to those questions tells you at about what tech level the society is because even if they're importing parts from offworld, they've got the local know-how to be able to keep the infrastructure up.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That's interesting. So it's never been a case of buzzing the locals to see if they're living in grav arcologies or mud huts, or driving oxen drawn carts or buzzing around in grav cycles. It's always been a case of knowing what's going to be there ahead of time.

 

[Carlobrand]

Hmm, on that basis, what Tech Level would the Solomon Islands be? ...

Lessee, CIA World Factbook says the bulk of the population depends on agriculture, fishing, and forestry. They're using outboard motors in that fishing part but have trouble maintaining them due to lack of spare parts. Do they have the know-how? A lack of spare parts could just represent a disruption in the local economy, no funds to import the parts even though they'd know what to do if they could get them. Clearly there are some parts getting through or there would eventually be no outboard motors and that aspect of knowledge would be rendered moot. However, where the motors are "commonly used" and there's still an active effort to keep it that way, for all that it's difficult to get the parts and maybe they're cannibalizing old motors or finding ways to stretch the life of worn out parts that should have long ago been replaced, then they still get credit for that particular technology.

What tools do they use in agriculture, and can they maintain those? There's an industrial sector comprising 10.6% of the work-force - what are they making, and with what, and do they have the know-how to maintain that? There's a service sector, 39.4%. Services could be anything from restaurant workers to truck drivers and auto mechanics - what are they working with, and do they have the knowledge to maintain those tools? I'd be hard-pressed to call it TL2 if I can find an auto mechanic who knows how to fix my car, even if he's having to cannibalize cars from the junkyard to do it. The man has TL6-7 knowledge and is applying that knowledge to keep TL6-7 equipment a functioning part of his culture.

 

[Carlobrand]

That's interesting. So it's never been a case of buzzing the locals to see if they're living in grav arcologies or mud huts, or driving oxen drawn carts or buzzing around in grav cycles. It's always been a case of knowing what's going to be there ahead of time.

I am not understanding the point.

 

[Blue Ghost]

In your gaming sessions, you've always known the tech levels of a world before hand.

You've never discovered a new world and had to look around to determine what tech level they're operating at.

 

[Timerover51]

Lessee, CIA World Factbook says the bulk of the population depends on agriculture, fishing, and forestry. They're using outboard motors in that fishing part but have trouble maintaining them due to lack of spare parts. Do they have the know-how? A lack of spare parts could just represent a disruption in the local economy, no funds to import the parts even though they'd know what to do if they could get them. Clearly there are some parts getting through or there would eventually be no outboard motors and that aspect of knowledge would be rendered moot. However, where the motors are "commonly used" and there's still an active effort to keep it that way, for all that it's difficult to get the parts and maybe they're cannibalizing old motors or finding ways to stretch the life of worn out parts that should have long ago been replaced, then they still get credit for that particular technology.

Takes 3 months to get parts in, if you have the foreign currency to get them. The mechanics are either European or Anzac expatriates or Chinese. The Solomon islanders are not mechanics, but do run chain saws. The outboards are cannabalized for parts as needed. The islands are volcanic mountains projecting above the sea. Lots and lots of jungle.

What tools do they use in agriculture, and can they maintain those? There's an industrial sector comprising 10.6% of the work-force - what are they making, and with what, and do they have the know-how to maintain that? There's a service sector, 39.4%. Services could be anything from restaurant workers to truck drivers and auto mechanics - what are they working with, and do they have the knowledge to maintain those tools? I'd be hard-pressed to call it TL2 if I can find an auto mechanic who knows how to fix my car, even if he's having to cannibalize cars from the junkyard to do it. The man has TL6-7 knowledge and is applying that knowledge to keep TL6-7 equipment a functioning part of his culture.

Agriculture, aside from Cocoanut plantations is pretty much slash and burn. That service sector of 39.4% is really questionable. Maybe 4% would be closer. Virtually no vehicles on the islands, except for Guadalcanal, and the trails are atrocious. Not really roads. Fishing does occupy a lot of people, but not with Western equipment. Some nets, but mainly rods on the reefs. Probably some locals using left over WW2 ordnance for some "fishing" too. A lot of the natives still use dugouts, very nicely made ones. Yes, they do have some aircraft, but those are maintained by expatriates too.

Aside from Honiara on Guadalcanal and Gizo on the island of Gizo, if something mechanical breaks, you are out of luck.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Right, but TLs for worlds you visit are already known quantities. You've never stumbled upon a "super world" with "magic tech", or world with some strange aliens who are caught in the stone age?

Your referee doesn't generate a world for your players to discover a new civilization, but generates a world that's already known to the Imperium, and therefore your players, although they won't know the world per se, they will recognize Imperial, Solomani, Zhodani, Vargr, or what not, technological trappings; i.e. it may be a backwater planet, but it's not an unknown planet with alien tech.

When you guys adventure, you adventure in a known quantity, correct? You never venture "out there" and come across some strange tech that's off the charts, correct?

That's really what I'm getting at. You play Traveller as a futuristic setting for 20th century international politics, pirate sweeps, criminal intrigue and what not. It's never meet the new alien race with strange ways and who know nothing about the Imperium. Is that right?

p.s. sorry for sounding like a broken record, but this may determine whether I try to continue writing for this game or not.

 

[Enoki]

I tend to agree with Carlobrand's view. Tech level is an estimate not some hard and fast number. I would go further and say it is not always 100% accurate either. That is sort of like the Michelin Travel Guide or CIA World Book, it is based on last survey and professional estimates.
So, you can have worlds where the tech level is higher or lower than listed by one or two levels, particularly when dealing with non-Imperial worlds. I'd also say this is more true of amber and red zones as they are harder to get into to make an estimate.
For example Cyntrial in the Cyntralin Unity (0202 Nejim subsector) is a red zone with an G tech level. Something's gotta be going on there to get that red labeling while it exceeds Imperial tech levels... Likely the Imperial survey doesn't have all the facts either...

I also think a world can have niche technologies they are much better at than otherwise indicated.

By making it an estimate (unlike size, hyrdrographics, or atmosphere) it means players can't game the rules so easily by having expectations that the "locals" won't have technology A or C or whatever when they very well might. It doesn't mean that a Tech 5 would has a military equipped with fusion guns but they could have basic jet fighters with some simple AAM that could give the player's ship a surprise they didn't expect...

 

[Blue Ghost]

But is that Amber World a known quantity in your player's eyes? Do you call up Fodor's on the screen, and read about that incredible technology that allows you to gate around the galaxy, and create heavy elements at will, or is it red because you and TAS know nothing about it?

 

[Timerover51]

Right, but TLs for worlds you visit are already known quantities. You've never stumbled upon a "super world" with "magic tech", or world with some strange aliens who are caught in the stone age?

Your referee doesn't generate a world for your players to discover a new civilization, but generates a world that's already known to the Imperium, and therefore your players, although they won't know the world per se, they will recognize Imperial, Solomani, Zhodani, Vargr, or what not, technological trappings; i.e. it may be a backwater planet, but it's not an unknown planet with alien tech.

When you guys adventure, you adventure in a known quantity, correct? You never venture "out there" and come across some strange tech that's off the charts, correct?

That's really what I'm getting at. You play Traveller as a futuristic setting for 20th century international politics, pirate sweeps, criminal intrigue and what not. It's never meet the new alien race with strange ways and who know nothing about the Imperium. Is that right?

p.s. sorry for sounding like a broken record, but this may determine whether I try to continue writing for this game or not.

To do adventuring in a totally unknown area is precisely why I am setting up my own sector, to the Rimward of the Solomani sphere. It will be a sector with a couple of jumping off bases on one of the fringes, but after that, all the players will have are hexes where there are stars, and maybe some basic information on possible planets, mainly gas giants.

I will have the data, but not the players.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Thanks timerover; I was curious if anybody still played Traveller as an exploratory RPG as per the example in the book. It's the whole reason there's a blank subsector map in the books, and the whole spiel about players encountering various governments and tech levels.

That's why I asked about how people viewed TLs. If you jumped into an Amber zone area, does only the Ref know that it's a TL35 system run by sadistic aliens, or did somehow the TAS manage to get a team in and out there, and do a write up for future adventurers?

That's what I'm curious about. It sounds like players in today's Traveller games use it as a Fodors Travel guide, as opposed to a piece of data that guides the referee to create an adventure for the players to discover and experience.

Time for bed

 

[Orr]

Thanks timerover; I was curious if anybody still played Traveller as an exploratory RPG as per the example in the book. It's the whole reason there's a blank subsector map in the books, and the whole spiel about players encountering various governments and tech levels.

I think a lot of people still do, at least I still do.

I also think the issue with discussing things - rather then playing things - is that we all fall back on the OTU either consciously or subconsciously because it's the setting we all have on common. For good and ill, the OTU brings with it certain assumptions, assumptions which can both help and hinder.

When it comes to writing materials for the game, I'd follow the example of many of the old Amber Zones and supplements. They present a world and then never "locate" it within the OTU. There's always some vague hand gesture concerning "where" instead of a specific hex number in a specific sector found in many later publications.

There's a 3rd party supplement, Lee's Guide or some such, which handles this neatly. It presents all the details necessary for the amber zone/adventure, but the world/system UWP is presented as a range of numbers instead of specfic You know Size = 5 to 8, Atmo = 4 to 7, and so on. The writer then went even further and listed all the worlds in the Marches and Rim that fit those ranges!

You can write the type of adventures you want. You just need to dial back how it fits in the OTU or ignore the OTU altogether.

One other thing, make sure you post copies here!

 

[aramis]

My last traveller campaign was exploratory... kind of. They had a map, and it showed star colors, gas giants, and locations, but not the system contents. It was a 2 subsector setting. They had system data for the 8 systems of the Elestrial Trace...

The campaign was set up as "Test and prove the J2 drive." Of course, this lead to a misjump, and it turned exploratory.

 

[rancke]

When it comes to writing materials for the game, I'd follow the example of many of the old Amber Zones and supplements. They present a world and then never "locate" it within the OTU. There's always some vague hand gesture concerning "where" instead of a specific hex number in a specific sector found in many later publications.

Some don't provide location; others do. If they don't, the setting is either somewhat bland or it provides exotic details that nail down whichever world the referee place them on thenceforth. The only advantage to the lack of specific setting is that the referee is free to place it whereever he likes in his own TU -- and that's a freedom all referees have anyway, so it's not really an advantage.

Me, I like it when it makes a difference where an adventure is set. It adds verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing setting. If a referee prefers to put it elsewhere, all he has to do is to move it, so that concern is no obstacle. But if I set an adventure on Forboldn, other writers and referees can set their adventures on Forboldn too, and instead of several unconnected adventures, people wind up with a richer and more intricate world to explore.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

When you guys adventure, you adventure in a known quantity, correct? You never venture "out there" and come across some strange tech that's off the charts, correct?

One of the best examples of this IMO was the 2300AD adventure "Bayern" - that was definitely going beyond the edge of the known.

But is the listed TL the maximum, is it the average of what's available, or does it indicate something else?

 

[Blue Ghost]

That sounds like fun. Tech levels, to me, seem more like game lingo than something the actual characters would reference.

 

[Blue Ghost]

*much snippage*

One other thing, make sure you post copies here!

*EDIT*

Just to clarify, a lot of the concepts I've drafted are not tech level dependent as such, though I do have some concepts where the players would visit tech levels, or "technology", outside the Imperium, and part of the challenge is how players deal with that with the tools at their disposal.

I now have approximately 35 concepts, two of which are published through Gypsy Knight, two are currently being reviewed for T5, one other I'm holding off on finishing until I can get a thumbs up or a thumbs down with provisos of what I need to fix or do.

* 2nd EDIT*

Part of the reason I was so interested in this topic is because a lot of players seem to use TLs as a rating that in game characters know about, and to me that's not wrong as such, but I personally don't believe that a travel guide to the Imperium, or anywhere in known space, would have something like that unless it was a very extreme (pre-stellar; stone age / medieval / renaissance) technology discrepancy where no contact had been made with that world.

But, as per the rules and Marc Miller's thrust for the game, there is no "do not touch" clause as per Star Trek's Starfleet, therefore the Imperium and its neighbors probably have a bunch of Marco Polos and Admiral Perrys busting open relations with the lowliest of civs.

The whole Tech Level designator, to me, is akin to Experience in D&D. Experience in D&D was never meant to be a "real in game" reward, but that's how people treat it. TL, to me, is supposed to give the referee an idea of societal development, but that's not how people treat it.

So, even though I followed the game's development since 79, I'm getting the sense that maybe my precepts of how the game and the fiction environment is set, is wrong. Or, more likely, the way the game started out is one thing, and the way people use aspects of it has become something else.

 

[mike wightman]

TL is definitely in game knowledge - the IISS catalogues worlds and determines world TL, see Imperial Fringe adventure.

 

[Blue Ghost]

But how could it be if you're in an exploratory campaign?

I mean I really do understand jumping from one known system to another, and looking up some form of rating on the local amenities. But if you're blazing new trails, and the Ref rolls up a TL for a world that the players haven't been to, then how would they know the TL ahead of time?