Big ship universe vs small ship universe

[Murph]

Classic Traveller seemed to envision a small ship universe since those were the ships that the players could possibly afford, or be able to crew. High Guard added to that by adding the big ships which players could never afford. I mean how many players could pay for/own a 250k Battleship? So how do we address the seeming contradiction? I propose that there is no contradiction as such, but merely a affordable vs non-affordable type of ship.
Do we have "small ship" universes where the biggest ship is the 5,000 ton ship from the classic books? Absolutely! Do we have "big ship" universes from High Guard, Trillion Credit Squadron? Absolutely! For the adventuring class, they will tend to live in the small ship universe, with the big ships acting as patrons, antagonists, or enemies.

If you are bee-bopping around in your 800 ton Mercenary Cruiser that you won in a dabo game, and suddenly that Ceasar class destroyer of 6,500 tons shows up to do a "customs inspection", you might have a really bad day, or a good one. So, do you have a small ship universe, or a big ship universe, or a combination of the two?

Me, I have both

 

[Grav_Moped]

In practice, that's what most campaigns work out to be.

There is a distinct difference if you're playing in a universe where ship sizes are capped by technology (LBB1-3). In that system, the most cost-efficient large freighters are 1-2000Td, and combatant ships are likely 600-2000Td depending on tech level. There might be vast fleets of those smaller ships, though...

In a "big ship" universe, freighters will often be in the 20,000Td range.

Also, in a "big ship" universe, players can role-play crew (bridge crew, or ship's troops) on large ships, so those ships aren't entirely limited to stage sets, or foes to flee, or cavalry coming to the rescue. They may not own the ship, but could have significant control over it.

 

[Murph]

True, the PC's could be the crew of the 1 MTon Nostromo class freighter moving cargo from one place to another, with a little "self help" on the side.

 

[Grav_Moped]

True, the PC's could be the crew of the 1 MTon Nostromo class freighter moving cargo from one place to another, with a little "self help" on the side.

Or, the Traveller spin on it, the bridge crew (and with alternate characters, one of the landing teams) of one of the five Lightning-class cruisers transferred to the Scouts.

 

[Murph]

Really good idea. Looking at a long trip outside of the Imperium.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Really good idea. Looking at a long trip outside of the Imperium.

Scale it down a bit and you've got Adventure 4: Leviathan.

IMO that one's a big ship in the small-ship framework, and it's in a small-ship, low-traffic setting since it strongly implies that nobody (Imperial) goes much past the edge of the Spinward Marches, even though the Marches had been settled for hundreds -- if not thousands -- of years by then. That's an assumption that doesn't mesh well with fleets of Far Future "Panamax/Malaccamax" freighters and liners and the equivalents of modern aircraft carriers plying the spaceways...

But then, the early Adventures/Double-Adventures were written for a small-ship-universe setting.

 

[Murph]

Excellent point, I have found the Trojan Reach to be an interesting and exciting place for my crew back in the day. I can also see the Panamax freighters being chartered to transport smaller ships from point A to point B, and I see them has having Jump3/4/5 to make it economical. So a smaller ship could get crammed into a hold and carried along...for a price.

 

[Dragoner]

I'd allow a big ship, like an alien space hulk to explore, though 99% I do a small ship universe. I mean armored battleships with spinal weapons makes me think of Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers which is a cool program, except not really the tu I want to run.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I'd allow a big ship, like an alien space hulk to explore, though 99% I do a small ship universe. I mean armored battleships with spinal weapons makes me think of Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers which is a cool program, except not really the tu I want to run.

And it's all relative. In a LBB2-only universe, a Kinunir is a big freakin' deal, and one with several Gazelles is a plausible task force.

In an LBB5 universe, it's one of the flotilla of escorts to a Lightning-class, maybe. Still a big deal if the PC party runs into it, but it's much less important to the setting as a whole...

 

[Dragoner]

And it's all relative. In a LBB2-only universe, a Kinunir is a big freakin' deal, and one with several Gazelles is a plausible task force.

In an LBB5 universe, it's one of the flotilla of escorts to a Lightning-class, maybe. Still a big deal if the PC party runs into it, but it's much less important to the setting as a whole...

Sure, I have done them both; however I have had more fun with the players as troops on a Kinunir.

 

[Condottiere]

I think scaling can be accommodated.

 

[Enoki]

To put this in terms of today, or the past century, I see the ship situation as players owning something like this:

They don't operate the QE II. What's shown is the bigger end of player ships.

If they are in some business like being mercenaries, they get something a bit better armed about the same size.

The sort of huge naval warships like cruisers and battleships are mostly in the game as background. The same goes for the larger passenger and freight hauling merchant ships, although it is possible that the players might buy passage on one if they don't have their own ship to tootle around in.

 

[Grav_Moped]

And it's all relative. In a LBB2-only universe, a Kinunir is a big freakin' deal, and one with several Gazelles is a plausible task force.

In an LBB5 universe, it's one of the flotilla of escorts to a Lightning-class, maybe. Still a big deal if the PC party runs into it, but it's much less important to the setting as a whole...

To continue the point: On the LBB2 ship encounters table, you might run into a Type C Mercenary Cruiser. In a big-ship universe, someone's merely hired a security team. In a small-ship universe, these guys might just tip the balance of power on a balkanized world. And in a parallel campaign in the same setting, the crew is the set of PCs who have just been hired to do (or prevent) exactly that...

 

[Grav_Moped]

To put this in terms of today, or the past century, I see the ship situation as players owning something like this:

They don't operate the QE II. What's shown is the bigger end of player ships.

If they are in some business like being mercenaries, they get something a bit better armed about the same size.

The sort of huge naval warships like cruisers and battleships are mostly in the game as background. The same goes for the larger passenger and freight hauling merchant ships, although it is possible that the players might buy passage on one if they don't have their own ship to tootle around in.

Keep in mind that Traveller predates (mostly) Star Wars. Star Trek's Enterprise was big, as cinematic starships went back then; Star Destroyers and Death Stars hadn't hit the silver screen yet (but, Silent Running's giant greenhouse ships...). Yes, E.E. Smith wrote of increasingly big warships (and eventually threw around entire planets as weapons), but that was slightly outside the scope of an RPG game. Dune had big starships, but no small ones (just smaller non-starships).

In other words, the early Traveller small-ship universe wasn't some strange SF niche, it just came out at the point when people's expectations changed.

 

[infojunky]

While I state that I am a small ship universe guy, really I am an intermediate ship universe guy. In that ACS and BCS ships are realistically of two different magnitudes of scale, i.e. Book2 100s of tons, Book5 1,000s of tones.

A small Merchantman of an around 1,000 tons makes sense, while the equivalent small combatant would be smaller but that is comparing apples and oranges. A 10,000 ton merchantman wouldn't be uncommon at all, but it would still me Leary of the aforementioned small combatant.

To be honest I have toyed around with reducing the scale if Book5 down to the 100 ton baseline. Meaning the ships with Spinals are in the 1000s of tons.

In the real world the very largest of ships have relatively few ports that they can service. Which in the translates that the biggest ships will be on route serving the biggest markets. (note the median TL of the imperium is 12, thus J3 routes between the big market worlds are most likely).

 

[Enoki]

Keep in mind that Traveller predates (mostly) Star Wars. Star Trek's Enterprise was big, as cinematic starships went back then; Star Destroyers and Death Stars hadn't hit the silver screen yet (but, Silent Running's giant greenhouse ships...). Yes, E.E. Smith wrote of increasingly big warships (and eventually threw around entire planets as weapons), but that was slightly outside the scope of an RPG game. Dune had big starships, but no small ones (just smaller non-starships).

In other words, the early Traveller small-ship universe wasn't some strange SF niche, it just came out at the point when people's expectations changed.

That doesn't change that Traveller is best played as a small ship universe game insofar as the players are concerned. It makes doing it with miniatures easier as the deck plans aren't overly large and complex. You don't need combat to be masses of NPC's and such to keep things interesting.

 

[Grav_Moped]

That doesn't change that Traveller is best played as a small ship universe game insofar as the players are concerned. It makes doing it with miniatures easier as the deck plans aren't overly large and complex. You don't need combat to be masses of NPC's and such to keep things interesting.

Absolutely!

You can have them, and it becomes a slightly different game, but keeping things on a human scale is easier.

 

[Condottiere]

You need a horse, not a stage coach, to get to the next town.

In my opinion, ninety percent of the time it's the facility and cost to ride into the sunset.

Though I'd start in the morning.

 

[mike wightman]

Horse = grav vehicle or ATV
Stage coach = smallcraft
Train = jump drive

The Traveller Adventure is a small ship setting with the big stuff in the background. All the ships we "see" and can interact with are LBB2 designs, but the central mystery involves a pair of spinal meson guns...

What doesn't make sense setting wise is that there is any illegal activity in any system in the Spinward Marches. The description of the Imperium in LBB4 and 5 does not match with later developments with regards to the scale of the Imperial Navy and the number fs ships it has available for patrol.

 

[Murph]

That has always been an issue, is the Imperial Navy BIG? Or is it small with pockets of ships such as a squadron or two in an area? Or is it a massive fleet capable of whatever it wants? Again are ships rare, scarce, common, or everywhere? I think ships are more common just for commerce purposes, think interstate trucking companies and shipping lines.

Your smaller LBB2 ships are the ones that service the class C/D/E/X starports and the big High Guard ships are the ones that service the A/B starports. Your smaller LBB2 ships are the ones that meet at the Class A/B ports, load cargo, and then move on to the smaller ports. HOWEVER: I do not see ships of under 1,000 tons as economically viable in terms of costs/prices shown in the books. Speculative Trading can only get you so far, as a couple of my players discovered. But ships in the 1,000 to 3,000 ton range CAN make a living of it, especially if they have J-2+ drives. Your Deus Ex Machina ships are the larger warships and cargo vessels, at least IMHO.