Black Globe and Jump Drive
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Andrew Boulton
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I would expect this would instantly overload the capacitors and vapourise the ship.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Short answer no...
...long answer, everything is related.
Solely my opinion but no, a ship could not jump out with its Black Globe active. It would have to drop the field to initiate jump. It's the one way nature of the field, no energy goes in, or out. And jump is all about massive energy output. If the field was on it would absorb all that, and you'd explode from seriously overloaded capacitors, unless you had a lot of extra capacitors, in which case you'd have charged them up to the level of jump initiated. Yes, that's a tactic. How much energy is output to jump? A lot? Two turns of equal powerplant output is just enough to warm up the jump drive. It still has to burn or use the jump fuel in one turn to actually make the energy to jump. If the fuel is burned for jump (to tear a hole into jumpspace), that's a lot of energy. Too much to contemplate. And that is the model of entry jump flash and the way I go. If it is just "used" in some other way that doesn't create energy (like a jump bubble <spits>
) then you'd be ok. Unless said jump bubble was some kind of plasma field in which case you're back to a lot of energy again imo, and energy after jump too (see below, arrival jump flash).
So you need to leave the field down for at least one turn. Even in the case of the field having previously absorbed enough energy to jump (and you still have to have the fuel) it takes one turn with the field off ("...if it can do this in one turn or less, it jumps at the end of the turn...")
Thank you for noting that ships can canonically jump in with Black Globes on though. Proof positive imo that arrival jump flash (energy) is bunk. It also weakens the idea (to the point of destroying it imo) that there is some kind of jump bubble of hydrogen surrounding the ship imo since it ties in with the above in the descriptions and would involve energy.
And I think it can also put to rest the notion that jump travel is random (time and position*) in (game) reality since if it was any such jump in with black globes on tactic would be dangerous to the point of foolhardiness and simply pointless since you'd have no idea where you were to know when to drop the field behind the enemy lines. Heck you could end up plowing right into a planet with the field still on.
* I have long argued that in the game reality jump duration and precipitation points are well known and knowable in advance of actually jumping, for a specific set of initition circumstances. The random time and displacement are meta game only and represent the variables involved. So a jump of 150 hours coming out 5000km from the desired jump precipitation point is a known and knowable factor well in advance of the jump, for a given set of initiation circumstances. In fact it is known down to small fractions of time and x,y,z coordinates. The time variable is due to the jump points not being exactly 1 parsec apart. The x,y,z variable is down to the same distance variance as well as alignment of various other known bodies. Only in the case of a misjump are the time and coordinates unknown and unknowable.
The first clue that some travellers have that they have misjumped is:
...long answer, everything is related.
Solely my opinion but no, a ship could not jump out with its Black Globe active. It would have to drop the field to initiate jump. It's the one way nature of the field, no energy goes in, or out. And jump is all about massive energy output. If the field was on it would absorb all that, and you'd explode from seriously overloaded capacitors, unless you had a lot of extra capacitors, in which case you'd have charged them up to the level of jump initiated. Yes, that's a tactic. How much energy is output to jump? A lot? Two turns of equal powerplant output is just enough to warm up the jump drive. It still has to burn or use the jump fuel in one turn to actually make the energy to jump. If the fuel is burned for jump (to tear a hole into jumpspace), that's a lot of energy. Too much to contemplate. And that is the model of entry jump flash and the way I go. If it is just "used" in some other way that doesn't create energy (like a jump bubble <spits>
) then you'd be ok. Unless said jump bubble was some kind of plasma field in which case you're back to a lot of energy again imo, and energy after jump too (see below, arrival jump flash).So you need to leave the field down for at least one turn. Even in the case of the field having previously absorbed enough energy to jump (and you still have to have the fuel) it takes one turn with the field off ("...if it can do this in one turn or less, it jumps at the end of the turn...")
Thank you for noting that ships can canonically jump in with Black Globes on though. Proof positive imo that arrival jump flash (energy) is bunk. It also weakens the idea (to the point of destroying it imo) that there is some kind of jump bubble of hydrogen surrounding the ship imo since it ties in with the above in the descriptions and would involve energy.
And I think it can also put to rest the notion that jump travel is random (time and position*) in (game) reality since if it was any such jump in with black globes on tactic would be dangerous to the point of foolhardiness and simply pointless since you'd have no idea where you were to know when to drop the field behind the enemy lines. Heck you could end up plowing right into a planet with the field still on.
* I have long argued that in the game reality jump duration and precipitation points are well known and knowable in advance of actually jumping, for a specific set of initition circumstances. The random time and displacement are meta game only and represent the variables involved. So a jump of 150 hours coming out 5000km from the desired jump precipitation point is a known and knowable factor well in advance of the jump, for a given set of initiation circumstances. In fact it is known down to small fractions of time and x,y,z coordinates. The time variable is due to the jump points not being exactly 1 parsec apart. The x,y,z variable is down to the same distance variance as well as alignment of various other known bodies. Only in the case of a misjump are the time and coordinates unknown and unknowable.
The first clue that some travellers have that they have misjumped is:
- The jump clock counts down to the precipitation window, and nothing happens.
- The jump clock has not yet counted down when the ship drops out of jump space.
- The ship drops out of jump space right on time but things aren't where they should be in normal space.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The rules in high guard support the idea that ships can jump with their black globes on.
The TAS/Challenge article about the nemesis cruiser also supports it IIRC.
Also the rules concerning black globes don't mention having to drop the force field to jump.
The TAS/Challenge article about the nemesis cruiser also supports it IIRC.
Also the rules concerning black globes don't mention having to drop the force field to jump.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Not picking a fight, just looking for clarification...
I don't see rules to support it. It always seemed obvious to me from HG that:
1 - Jumping requires energy (output)
2 - Black globes absorb energy from both sides of the field
For example you can't maneuver your ship (energy output) with the globe on. You have to drop the globe or you're just charging your capacitors by operating your maneuver drive.
Can you outline your perspective on jumping within a black globe?
That may be, I don't recall ever reading it (but the memory ain't what it used to be).
Do the rules mention jumping with a black globe at all outside the example of jumping in with it on? I thought I recalled a specific note about absorbing energy to jump but still needing the fuel but couldn't even see that just now (never mind, other page, last line ). The absence of a rule saying you need to drop the field to jump does not mean it is allowed though 
Again, the field absorbs all energy from both sides. Unless you imagine the jump doesn't require energy output I can't see how you can keep the field up and still jump.
I don't see rules to support it. It always seemed obvious to me from HG that:
1 - Jumping requires energy (output)
2 - Black globes absorb energy from both sides of the field
For example you can't maneuver your ship (energy output) with the globe on. You have to drop the globe or you're just charging your capacitors by operating your maneuver drive.
Can you outline your perspective on jumping within a black globe?
That may be, I don't recall ever reading it (but the memory ain't what it used to be).
Do the rules mention jumping with a black globe at all outside the example of jumping in with it on? I thought I recalled a specific note about absorbing energy to jump but still needing the fuel but couldn't even see that just now (never mind, other page, last line
). The absence of a rule saying you need to drop the field to jump does not mean it is allowed though Again, the field absorbs all energy from both sides. Unless you imagine the jump doesn't require energy output I can't see how you can keep the field up and still jump.
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Perhaps a rephrase of the original question, in HG terms.
Can a ship jump at the end of a turn in which it has used its black globe to absorb incoming enemy fire?
Yes. With caveats.
Yes - If the ship absorbed enough energy through the black globe to jump and has the required fuel, then yes, at the end of the turn, after combat damage has been handled and absorbed, the ship jumps (if it didn't blow up from overloaded capacitors). That seems to be the way the rule there reads.
Yes - In which case it seems reasonable that the ship can provide the power the jump needs normally, the one or two turns of powerplant output, while the black globe is up, and then jump at the end of the turn by using the fuel. However...
IF the ship is hit and the black globe absorbs any energy (and it will if it is up) while it is charging from the power plant it will very likely overload the capacitors (unless the ship has extra capacitors it is all but a certainty) and the ship will blow up.
So: Possible, yes. Dangerous, YES! Your choice.
To be clear, I'm still of the opinion that the actual jump does not take place within the black globe. The field comes down before the jump actually happens. A brief window of a few minutes.
Can a ship jump at the end of a turn in which it has used its black globe to absorb incoming enemy fire?
Yes. With caveats.
Yes - If the ship absorbed enough energy through the black globe to jump and has the required fuel, then yes, at the end of the turn, after combat damage has been handled and absorbed, the ship jumps (if it didn't blow up from overloaded capacitors). That seems to be the way the rule there reads.
Yes - In which case it seems reasonable that the ship can provide the power the jump needs normally, the one or two turns of powerplant output, while the black globe is up, and then jump at the end of the turn by using the fuel. However...
IF the ship is hit and the black globe absorbs any energy (and it will if it is up) while it is charging from the power plant it will very likely overload the capacitors (unless the ship has extra capacitors it is all but a certainty) and the ship will blow up.
So: Possible, yes. Dangerous, YES! Your choice.
To be clear, I'm still of the opinion that the actual jump does not take place within the black globe. The field comes down before the jump actually happens. A brief window of a few minutes.
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That example would be enough to show that it is possible to jump in with it on. However, your arguments against being able to jump with it on are cogent. Maybe it's possible to turn it on while in jumpspace? It's not something I think is very likely, given what we know about jumpspace, but it might be a special function of black globes. Or maybe jumpspace is less hostile to energy fields than to matter. Or maybe Ancient black globes (those 5000 the Imperium found) can do it because the Ancients built them to do it.
Hans
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I don't see a problem with Globe-Jumps. Jump space is entirely outside normal space, time, matter and energy. I don't go with the 'artistic licence' descriptions of jump-space; scientifically it doesn't hold water.
A jumping ship doesn't move in any normal sense, it simply 'drops through a hole' where it is. A globe is simply part of the mass-energy equation that defines the jump parameter.
I don't go with jump-flash, in or out. A flash only occurs if there is excess energy expended that is manifested in light and heat. IMTU, the energy goes to tearing a hole in space-time, and the required energy is quantised - the process takes just the energy it needs, no more, no less. There is no excess energy causing a flash.
Therefore there is also no excess energy to cause problems for a Globe or its capacitors. The mass-energy quantum defined by the ship+globe emerges into the new location just as a ship+nothing would.
A jumping ship doesn't move in any normal sense, it simply 'drops through a hole' where it is. A globe is simply part of the mass-energy equation that defines the jump parameter.
I don't go with jump-flash, in or out. A flash only occurs if there is excess energy expended that is manifested in light and heat. IMTU, the energy goes to tearing a hole in space-time, and the required energy is quantised - the process takes just the energy it needs, no more, no less. There is no excess energy causing a flash.
Therefore there is also no excess energy to cause problems for a Globe or its capacitors. The mass-energy quantum defined by the ship+globe emerges into the new location just as a ship+nothing would.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
But isn't your jump threshold outside your globe threshold? Or coincidental. As in the energy you produce to tear a hole in space-time needs to be outside of the volume of the globe?
I could see a relation between the two, such that either they are completely compatible and you can do it, or incompatible and you can't I'm not being wishy-washy. I'm just not sure which makes more sense.
I've speculated at times that what makes jump space safe is in fact a black globe effect. It's just not one that can be controlled and operated at a power level that allows it to be the effective and named black globe used in real space. That's ancient tech/cutting edge reverse engineering. What the black globe device installed in ships actually does in that case is handle that control and power feed, to the normal jump drive mechanics (such as the capacitors). It's not so much the actual black globe generator as the remote control.
I rather like your idea of no flash on either end, but can live with an entry flash. It's a lot of energy being used for tearing a hole in space and 100% efficiency is impossible It strikes me as a big of a display of raw power. But if I had to lose entry flash to preserve no exit flash that'd be fine.
I could see a relation between the two, such that either they are completely compatible and you can do it, or incompatible and you can't
I'm not being wishy-washy. I'm just not sure which makes more sense.I've speculated at times that what makes jump space safe is in fact a black globe effect. It's just not one that can be controlled and operated at a power level that allows it to be the effective and named black globe used in real space. That's ancient tech/cutting edge reverse engineering. What the black globe device installed in ships actually does in that case is handle that control and power feed, to the normal jump drive mechanics (such as the capacitors). It's not so much the actual black globe generator as the remote control.
I rather like your idea of no flash on either end, but can live with an entry flash. It's a lot of energy being used for tearing a hole in space and 100% efficiency is impossible
It strikes me as a big of a display of raw power. But if I had to lose entry flash to preserve no exit flash that'd be fine.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
High Guard 2 page 43, Invisibility section:
"Suppose, for instance, that a fleet were to jump into a system with its black globes on and its velocity set upon a predetermined course."
So they are either switching them on in jump space or before the jump.
Also on page 43, the sentence before the Invisibility section:
"If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn."
Note that's the end of the turn where the black globe has been in use and absorbing energy.
No mention of dropping the globe and jumping next turn.
"Suppose, for instance, that a fleet were to jump into a system with its black globes on and its velocity set upon a predetermined course."
So they are either switching them on in jump space or before the jump.
Also on page 43, the sentence before the Invisibility section:
"If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn."
Note that's the end of the turn where the black globe has been in use and absorbing energy.
No mention of dropping the globe and jumping next turn.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And as soon as I can find the challenge magazine with the project blackheart and nemesis cruiser in I'll see what that says on the subject.
D'oh
Which I never will - it's in Traveller's Digest 11.
It does mention the nemesis class jumping into the target system with its black globe set to 100% opacity.
D'oh
Which I never will - it's in Traveller's Digest 11.
It does mention the nemesis class jumping into the target system with its black globe set to 100% opacity.
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Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Not necessarily. The singularity of a black hole isn't outside the event horizon. Once you tear the fabric of space and time, concepts such as 'inside' and 'outside' tend to lose their meaning anyway.
I could see a relation between the two, such that either they are completely compatible and you can do it, or incompatible and you can't
I've speculated at times that what makes jump space safe is in fact a black globe effect. It's just not one that can be controlled and operated at a power level that allows it to be the effective and named black globe used in real space. That's ancient tech/cutting edge reverse engineering. What the black globe device installed in ships actually does in that case is handle that control and power feed, to the normal jump drive mechanics (such as the capacitors). It's not so much the actual black globe generator as the remote control.
I rather like your idea of no flash on either end, but can live with an entry flash. It's a lot of energy being used for tearing a hole in space and 100% efficiency is impossible
I have no difficulty with the safety of jumpspace, as I have a completely non-canon (and IMHO more (pseudo) scientific) take on it. My jumpspace isn't some frothing pseudo-acid that dissolves ships on contact and psionically induces insanity in all who behold it; my jumpspace is nothing - absolutely nothing - no space, no time, no existance. Your ship is a pocket universe in jumpspace, it's all-that-exists until it (hopefully) drops out into real space. That claustrophobic concept alone might induce a measure of insanity in some travellers, but there is nothing in my jumpspace that you need to protect a ship from.
The concept of 100% efficiency being impossible is derived from our common and familiar observations of the laws of Thermodynamics, which dominate our daily lives. Jump, OTOH, (at least IMTU) involves Quantum Mechanics, which is a whole different ball game, and in any case when you tear a hole in the universe all bets are off.
Sifu Blackirish
SOC-14 1K
Okay, i'm going to stir the pot a little bit.
Would these definitions depend on if the jump drive is digital or analog in nature?
IMTU their g-space drives are analog, the drives are running the entire time you are in jump. Not burning all that fuel, just a maintenance charge. However, you can overcharge the system to get more distance--not as in a misjump, still takes the time but you can get more distance and stay in ftl 300 hours instead of 150, you went 4 parsecs instead of 2.
IIRC Canon says the standard jump drive burns fuel QUICKLY so drop tanks are viable. Is the drive just 'off' the rest of the week? If so, you can turn on the black globe anytime. Everything is foreign to jumpspace anyway, it won't care.
N.I.C.E. Labs
SOC-12
Quite late for this discussion, but if I may chime in...
Remember Black Globes are Ancient devices. Three hundred thousand year old parts that were found by the Imperium, not made (until Megatraveller when the tech levels were expanded). Considering the nature of tech the Ancients can do it could be assumed that Black Globes can discern and handle the differences between jump energy and energy associated with realspace. As for the jump field interacting with the globe, remember that the jump field itself is extremely localized. The jump web built into the hull of the ship is what creates the field that precipitates the ship into jump and nothing else. In fact jump capable ore tugs (in either Traders & Gunboats or Fighting Ships (I forget which)) have to have a separate jump web net to enclose their towed cargo so it goes into jump as well.
So, the jump field is essentially touching the skin of the ship and the black globe effect is much farther out so the two energies never interact. Black globes are hollow or turning them all would suck all the power out of the very ships they were protecting. Also, the black globe EFFECT is outside of the jump field, but the black globe DEVICE is inside the jump field, so where the jump goes, the device goes, and hence the field goes.
Remember Black Globes are Ancient devices. Three hundred thousand year old parts that were found by the Imperium, not made (until Megatraveller when the tech levels were expanded). Considering the nature of tech the Ancients can do it could be assumed that Black Globes can discern and handle the differences between jump energy and energy associated with realspace. As for the jump field interacting with the globe, remember that the jump field itself is extremely localized. The jump web built into the hull of the ship is what creates the field that precipitates the ship into jump and nothing else. In fact jump capable ore tugs (in either Traders & Gunboats or Fighting Ships (I forget which)) have to have a separate jump web net to enclose their towed cargo so it goes into jump as well.
So, the jump field is essentially touching the skin of the ship and the black globe effect is much farther out so the two energies never interact. Black globes are hollow or turning them all would suck all the power out of the very ships they were protecting. Also, the black globe EFFECT is outside of the jump field, but the black globe DEVICE is inside the jump field, so where the jump goes, the device goes, and hence the field goes.
I was just going to mention that as I read through this thread - that the Black Globe field may extend out further than the Jump Drive's area of effect, so you have the Globe perimeter, then you have the jump space perimeter, and then you have the hull.
I've already pointed out the issues I have regarding the concept that Jump bubbles conform to the hull. If it were strictly a hull thing alone, then Hull damage should also inflict a higher potential for mis-jumps. The "rules" do not support this - not even in MegaTraveller. Toss in the fact that jump nets can be cast around a non-jump capable mass, and we begin to see issues that arise from just how exactly is the jump bubble created to the point where a ship is in this universe one moment, and in the Jump-space universe in the blink of a femtosecond (or less time <g>).
In the end analysis however, the rules were intended to convey that ships could enter into normal space with the black globe fully operational - at least the rules in High Guard. Just like Traveller's rules never flat out said what happens during the jump - it was essentially "black box technology" in the sense that it works, but how it works is not explained in detail.
I personally have no issue either way with the explanations of why a ship should blow up when activating the black globe. I have no problems with GMs attempting to explain how the jump bubble thingie works other than the question that comes into play "Why can't the jump capacitors be used to generate large amounts of energy for the big spinal mount weapons?" Jump drives in my universe simply create a field around the ship based on the actual drive unit itself. Problem is? If it isn't surface based for the ship's hull, why then don't we find descriptions where a ship enters into jump space, and because another ship is partially inside of the jump sphere of effect, and partially outside of it - why doesn't the jump take not only the ship itself, but everything within a given radius of the jump drive engines themselves?
So, we find what appear to be inconsistencies, and either attempt to make order out of random disorder - or we just accept the inconsistencies and carry on despite it.
Not exactly true.
1. MegaTrav is clear that the jump grid, which is integral to the hull, maintains the jump field.
2. The Starship Operator's Manual is clear that the jump 'bubble' follows the exact contour of this integral grid and stands about 1 meter off the surface of the hull. Any hydrogen used is fuel and coolant which is expelled to rid excess heat; infrared signature increases significantly just before jump because of it.
3. I recall that the damage question was asked once and that it was answered in either the Trav Digest, or the TAS ( although I no longer have the relevant issue ). Because the jump grid is integral to ( embedded in ) the hull and not applied like some form of pin-striping, only damage that actually penetrates the hull ( interior explosion ) will have any effect. Any damage done in that fashion forces simpler grid sequences which means shorter jumps.
mtu stuff follows
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Jump nets?... I don't use 'em... I've never seen rules for them.... not my cup of tea
Black globes? ... don't care....I don't use 'em.... I prefer a lower-tech game... not my cup of tea.
jump flash...
Given that jump drives are affected by gravity wells and that they tear holes in space, I figure that space is distorted on entry or exit and these distortion cause ripples in space until they dampen out. I say that these 'ripples' are caused by strong gravity gradients which can be detected and that may induce any stray particles/matter to emit some form of radiation such as infra-red or other wavelength. The amount of radiation gives clues as to the mass and/or jump distance of the entering ship; a small, long distance jump will give of the same radiation as a large short range jump. The real-space exit vector can be traced via doppler of the gravity gradients caused by the jump exit like the wake of a boat ( assuming someone actually sees it... the 'ripples' dampen down pretty quickly )
Flash isn't necessarily a bright photoflash.
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While the discussion seems to have overflowed a bit, I'd like to point out that this is the CT forum, and the inclusion of MT rules here is somewhat beyond the scope of the purpose of this forum (but with the realization that many people integrate their games with rules from many editions, although I do not).
Unfortunately, there is no OTU forum, forcing us to post elsewhere. Which is fine if we want to talk about the Scouts, the Navy, technology, fauna, etc., but otherwise leaves us a choice between Lone Star and the rules-specific forums.
Hans
