Black Globe Capacitors

[Major B]

Does anyone remember a reference to the cost for installing capacitors to hold the energy absorbed by a black globe?

There is nothing in the MT design tables covering the capacitors. In the starship combat section of the RM there is a mention of how much energy a kiloliter of capacitor can hold (650 MW) and the formula for determining how much energy the J-Drive sinks can hold. I can't find the cost for installing the capacitors anywhere though.

I'll draft an errata entry for Don's next update, but rather than take a SWAG, I'd like to convert from another canon source if there is one. My knowledge of other versions is sketchy at best, so I'd appreciate any help.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

HG says MCr4/ton.

 

[aramis]

Does anyone remember a reference to the cost for installing capacitors to hold the energy absorbed by a black globe?

It's in High Guard.

 

[samuelvss]

HG says MCr4/ton.

And the HG dton holds 36 EP's, and "A ship without additional capacitors installed has capacitors (for the jump drive) equal to 0.5%MJn." HG p.42.

 

[Major B]

That sound you hear is me smacking my forehead - don't know why it didn't occur to me to check LBB5. I just assumed the answer was in a later version. Thanks for the reference.

 

[Major B]

Since HG uses 14 kl per Td I'll use that...

4 MCr per Td is .2857 MCr per kl -> but smaller installation should probably round up on the cost so .3 MCr per kl sounds right.

From what I read on page 31, the jump drive's ability to store energy is in addition to the energy stored in the additional capicators you can purchase.

Now I need to figure how many to install in the re-done Kinunir... and draft the errata entry for the MT RM.

Thanks again for referring me to the right place.

 

[aramis]

Use 250MW-Turns per EP & 13.5kl per TD; that's the baseline that GDW/DGP used in making the MT power plants. My Bk5 is elsewhere; how many PP/Td? if it is 36/Td as per T20...

That puts capcitors at a whomping: 666.667 MW-Turns/kl and MCr0.3/kl.

 

[Major B]

Use 250MW-Turns per EP & 13.5kl per TD; that's the baseline that GDW/DGP used in making the MT power plants. My Bk5 is elsewhere; how many PP/Td? if it is 36/Td as per T20...

That puts capcitors at a whomping: 666.667 MW-Turns/kl and MCr0.3/kl.

The MT RM says 650 MW per kl of capacitor so almost a dead-on transfer from CT. I'll draft up an errata entry for Don to put in his next update so this information is in the design tables where it should be.

But that leads to the reason I posted this question in the first place...

The Kinunir described in Adventure 1 and High Guard does not mention any capacitors so it can only hold as much energy as the J-Drive sinks will allow - and that's not much. But the description of the loss of Allamu at Two Suns says the ship withstood four hours of bombardment before the screens collapsed, implying that there had to be some additional capacitors installed.

Assuming the description is accurate, any ideas on what amount would be enough to install in the MT conversion?

 

[far-trader]

But that leads to the reason I posted this question in the first place...

The Kinunir described in Adventure 1 and High Guard does not mention any capacitors so it can only hold as much energy as the J-Drive sinks will allow - and that's not much. But the description of the loss of Allamu at Two Suns says the ship withstood four hours of bombardment before the screens collapsed, implying that there had to be some additional capacitors installed.

Assuming the description is accurate, any ideas on what amount would be enough to install in the MT conversion?

Depends on what the Kinunir was doing for that four hours. What flicker rate was the BG set at? What energy bleeding did the Kinunir do for it's part during that four hours? It's likely no simple equation but a complicated dance of absorb and bleed, but with always a little more going in then out, until eventually the capacitors are full. So just go with it, four hours and the basic capacitor load allowed by the jump drives, and figure they took some damage (using flicker) and pumped some out. IIRC it doesn't take long to overload capacitors when you're taking nuclear missile hits.

I did my own rebuild of the Kinunir several times, probably did a MT one too but don't know where it is or how I approched it. I seem to recall finding the CT version somewhat buggy though. I'm almost certain I posted one version on these forums somewhere.

BTW, iirc from my long ago electronics hobby days, the thing about capacitors, real world anyway, is there is no way to know exactly how full one is, or even exactly how much any one can hold before it's full.

The best you get is a rated capacity based on testing a sample group until they blow, and rating them a safe margin below that. So I've long felt a little unknown range should be allowed and that helps explain exploding BG capacitors. They are rated for the noted capacity but in a battle some commanders will gamble (blow up or be blown up) and go over the rated capcity. Some will hold, some will blow. Sometimes the extra shots diverted won't make a difference anyway.

 

[mike wightman]

The description in the Kinunir is also based more on how black globes work in HG first edition

 

[far-trader]

The description in the Kinunir is also based more on how black globes work in HG first edition

Yep, part of the buggy issue. Of course now I've got to go read 1st Ed again to recall just how it differs as I've forgotten...

...hmm, not seeing it. No flicker, no damage, just a minus DM on to hit. Do you have a page number handy Mike? Or is that all there was? I did find the missile salvo rule (high intensity missile fire) again, gonna have to remember that's where it is

 

[Major B]

Depends on what the Kinunir was doing for that four hours. What flicker rate was the BG set at? What energy bleeding did the Kinunir do for it's part during that four hours? It's likely no simple equation but a complicated dance of absorb and bleed, but with always a little more going in then out, until eventually the capacitors are full.

Exactly what I was thinking, so I tried playing out a quick HG combat between a Kniunir (using stats from the back of Book 5) and a Zho flotilla consisting of a Strike Cruiser (2000 Td using stats from Adventure 6, page 31) and two escorts (using the stats from Adventure 6 page 38 for a patrol frigate but modifying the weapons to match the escort found on page 40 of Alien module 4).

The result of combat: Round 1: the Kinunir crippled the cruiser with four hits (lucky) reducing it to maneuver 2 and destroying all weapons except one energy weapon battery that was reduced from factor-7 to factor-5. However, the Kinunir was also hit hard taking 60% fuel loss, losing one missile and one PA battery, and reduced to M-2. Round 2: Zho won initiative and closed to short range, allowing the fighters and energy weapons to fire, but no one scored a hit. Round 3: Kinunir scores two interior explosions on an excort (one critical) but only damages the J-drive and reduces to crew by one, which still leavwes the escort unable to fire. But the Kinunir is also hit twice, reducing fuel to 20% and destroying a laser battery. Round 4: Kinunir wins initiative and moves to long range, limiting the Zho fire significantly. The remaining escort scores a missile hit that doesn't penetrate the nuclear damper. Round 5: Zho's close to short range again and score 3 hits on Kinunir destroying the other missile and PA batteries and reducing the remaining laser battery to factor-4.

Result: The Kinunir has lasted 5 of the required 12 combat rounds but will probably be finished off quickly now... Once I finish I'll tally up the amount of energy absorbed, how much could have been bled off between rounds, and see when the screen would have overloaded. I'll try to post the results tomorrow.

BTW, iirc from my long ago electronics hobby days, the thing about capacitors, real world anyway, is there is no way to know exactly how full one is, or even exactly how much any one can hold before it's full.

That sounds like the kernel of a good house rule.

 

[Major B]

I don't have a copy of the 1st edition, so can you post an excerpt when you find it?

 

[far-trader]

What 1st ed has to say...

In Construction:

"Force Field generators project a barrier which prevents transit of anything but undifferentiated energy. This energy is absorbed, giving the field a black globe appearance, and is stored in on-board capacitors...

...if the field is overloaded, the drives may detonate, and the barrier drop, rendering the ship vulnerable to enemy fire."

"If a large amount of energy is absorbed by the globe, the capacitors might overload, dropping the barrier as well as doing extensive damage to the ship."

In Combat:

Laser attack roll to penetrate black globe defense:

"If black globe of firing ship is up druing current combat round, apply a DM of -5 to laser fire.

If black globe of target ship is not up in current round, then laser fire ignores black globe defense."

            Attacking Laser Factor

      1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9

0     0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0
1    12   11   10    9    8    7    6    5    4
2    13   12   11   10    9    8    7    6    5

(and so on...)

...and similar for all other weapons. Same DMs but slightly different tables.

And that is all. All I see looking through it twice now.

Nowhere do I see an energy absorption scheme. No energy points allowed or dealt. It's like there's a whole section on how to do black globes missing

I could have sworn there was more, but maybe I picked it up from 2nd edition. Or maybe it's somewhere else?