I re-posted this 2nd idea under "Trading Information (making merchant runs profitable)", because aside from the pirating aspects it seemed to have additional value as a mercantile commodity and should probably be discussed in another thread. I will try to iron it out there. I am not expressing myself so well, because I am too excited typing! = )
Boarding Actions: Do those really happen?
- Thread starter Shadowfax
- Start date
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I got that idea from the lack of paragraphs
(normally a pet peeve and I don't usually bother to read such, but I did figuring it would be worth it )Nope, I do however think most weapons would be kept in a locker off the bridge. larger ships might have a limited locker in engineering and limited weapons would be allowed in other locations where the crew to get at them (but nothing which could be used to open the bridge). At battle stations when pirates are attacking, I expect the crew will be armed. The coordination idea is to have hijackers onboard AND have a pirate attack on the ship, when the ship goes to battle stations upon sighting the Jolly Roger the hijackers will be able to strike at the distracted crew.
Hijacking has always been more common to me and the people I play with. My experience is that if people really want to steal a spaceship they will find a way to acquire one. One smoke-filled weekend I had a well thought out campaign based upon the chars not having a starship ruined when the players wanted a ship and, after I foiled their many hijacking attempts, they recruited a bunch of mercs and stormed a starport just so they could have a starship. Never underestimate human ingenuity, they are very good at finding things you never would have thought of.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
IMHO boarding can only be done if the following points are met:
The ship to be boarded must have completely lost his M-Drive
From the description of M-Drives in SOM they have limited vector-thrust and overdrive capacities. So even a 1g drive can do some pretty ugly things to your boarding party or boarding small craft. Like comming AT you suddenly, using it's greater bulk/mass to
The ship being boarded should have no weapons left
Boarding pods and small craft can't take all that much damage. And they give a "sure hit" fire control solution shortly before docking.
Boarding parties use small craft
Q: If you are a pirat in the StarTrek Universe, how do you tell the difference between a Federation and a Klingon freighter
A: If the freighter crew tries to board YOU, they are Klingons
So it's NOT a smart idea to attach your main craft to the enemie. History has a few situations where the boarder ended up being boarded and/or the "harmless" cargo ship carrying a load of infantry as cargo
Think about making your own docking port
In House-to-House combat one is encouraged to create a new entry point instead of using doors/windows. If you are doing a hostile boarding, consider doing the same. Nothing ruins your day like opening the inner hatch of the airlock and being able to read the text on the Claymore mine
Commerce raiders don't have to board
It's nice to take a price but scutteling the ship works just as well for you.
Don't overdress
Light weapons (including some Anti-Personal mines) work nicely in a ship. But to quote Cpt Ramius: "Some things in there react badly to being shot at". So only a very desperat enemy will use a PGMP/Panzerfaust/LAG inside his own starship. No need to roll out the Battledress when a Combat Environment Suit will do
Learn from the past
The problem of passengers trying to hijack the ship isn't new. "Ferry to HongKong" has an example of this with a historical background. Strict separation of crew and passengers (and even between some passenger groups), gates/internal airlocks between passenger and bridge/engineering etc. Oh and DON'T use the same networks for ships system and entertainment (See Speed 2 for results if you do)
The ship to be boarded must have completely lost his M-Drive
From the description of M-Drives in SOM they have limited vector-thrust and overdrive capacities. So even a 1g drive can do some pretty ugly things to your boarding party or boarding small craft. Like comming AT you suddenly, using it's greater bulk/mass to
The ship being boarded should have no weapons left
Boarding pods and small craft can't take all that much damage. And they give a "sure hit" fire control solution shortly before docking.
Boarding parties use small craft
Q: If you are a pirat in the StarTrek Universe, how do you tell the difference between a Federation and a Klingon freighter
A: If the freighter crew tries to board YOU, they are Klingons
So it's NOT a smart idea to attach your main craft to the enemie. History has a few situations where the boarder ended up being boarded and/or the "harmless" cargo ship carrying a load of infantry as cargo
Think about making your own docking port
In House-to-House combat one is encouraged to create a new entry point instead of using doors/windows. If you are doing a hostile boarding, consider doing the same. Nothing ruins your day like opening the inner hatch of the airlock and being able to read the text on the Claymore mine
Commerce raiders don't have to board
It's nice to take a price but scutteling the ship works just as well for you.
Don't overdress
Light weapons (including some Anti-Personal mines) work nicely in a ship. But to quote Cpt Ramius: "Some things in there react badly to being shot at". So only a very desperat enemy will use a PGMP/Panzerfaust/LAG inside his own starship. No need to roll out the Battledress when a Combat Environment Suit will do
Learn from the past
The problem of passengers trying to hijack the ship isn't new. "Ferry to HongKong" has an example of this with a historical background. Strict separation of crew and passengers (and even between some passenger groups), gates/internal airlocks between passenger and bridge/engineering etc. Oh and DON'T use the same networks for ships system and entertainment (See Speed 2 for results if you do)
Yes boarding actions can happen.
Ships dock with each other of their own free will all of the time. As I pointed out earlier, any one of those dockings could easily become a boarding action and by that point, the ability to maneuver is moot.
My triple scenario from earlier:
Ships dock with each other of their own free will all of the time. As I pointed out earlier, any one of those dockings could easily become a boarding action and by that point, the ability to maneuver is moot.
My triple scenario from earlier:
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Firefly examples
Serenity needs an engine part and when a ship that has it docks. The other crew has evil intent and they board and shoot the captain. (A fake 'SOS' is a typical Traveller ploy by pirates to lure a ship into docking with them but in this case the pirates are the only ones to respond to a legitimate SOS.)
Serenity rescues a sole survivor of a Reaver attack and, um, salvages some cargo when the alliance shows up and boards Serenity. There is no resistance, but I would still call this a boarding action. (Authorities with big ships, lots of weapons, and numerous well equipped 'marines' ask you to stop and be inspected.)
When Mal is shipped what appears to be a dead body, there is an attempt to stop serenity and board her but the captain takes a dislike to this notion. (Typical you have something I want and I'll shoot you out of the sky if I have to so you better hand it over)
While the captain is off having a sword duel, serenity is boarded while dirtside. (People you have dealings with come on board and drew down on the crew. In this case, they just wanted to hold them hostage until the results of the duel were determined.)
The Shepard is wounded and serenity goes to an alliance ship for medical aid. They dock and an alliance boarding party comes onto serenity and things don't look good until the shepards ID is scanned. (If you approach a military vessel for assistance they will board and inspect you. At least you hope that is what they do instead of shooting you!)
Serenity docks with a station and boards it to rescue the captain who is being held by Niska. (The pilot does a cool move where the ship powers down so it is undetected and just drifts in and docks, quickly boarding before they know what hit them. Much close quarters shooting does ensue.)
A bounty hunter boards Serenity and River boards his ship. (A small stealthy ship that is able to 'dock' undetected. Listening and other methods are used to detect the crews whereabouts before boarding. Once the other ship is detected, you have a situation where the 'enemy' ship is boarded.)
Boarding happened multiple times in Fireflys short single season. Here are some I remember, they could induce some interesting boarding ideas for YTU. I add the concept after the show description for those who never saw the show. I highly recommend purchasing the DVD of the series.
Serenity needs an engine part and when a ship that has it docks. The other crew has evil intent and they board and shoot the captain. (A fake 'SOS' is a typical Traveller ploy by pirates to lure a ship into docking with them but in this case the pirates are the only ones to respond to a legitimate SOS.)
Serenity rescues a sole survivor of a Reaver attack and, um, salvages some cargo when the alliance shows up and boards Serenity. There is no resistance, but I would still call this a boarding action. (Authorities with big ships, lots of weapons, and numerous well equipped 'marines' ask you to stop and be inspected.)
When Mal is shipped what appears to be a dead body, there is an attempt to stop serenity and board her but the captain takes a dislike to this notion. (Typical you have something I want and I'll shoot you out of the sky if I have to so you better hand it over)
While the captain is off having a sword duel, serenity is boarded while dirtside. (People you have dealings with come on board and drew down on the crew. In this case, they just wanted to hold them hostage until the results of the duel were determined.)
The Shepard is wounded and serenity goes to an alliance ship for medical aid. They dock and an alliance boarding party comes onto serenity and things don't look good until the shepards ID is scanned. (If you approach a military vessel for assistance they will board and inspect you. At least you hope that is what they do instead of shooting you!)
Serenity docks with a station and boards it to rescue the captain who is being held by Niska. (The pilot does a cool move where the ship powers down so it is undetected and just drifts in and docks, quickly boarding before they know what hit them. Much close quarters shooting does ensue.)
A bounty hunter boards Serenity and River boards his ship. (A small stealthy ship that is able to 'dock' undetected. Listening and other methods are used to detect the crews whereabouts before boarding. Once the other ship is detected, you have a situation where the 'enemy' ship is boarded.)
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----------------------Yeah, loved that series. Too bad it was so short.
----------I can see all the stuff mentioned above happening. When I asked the question I was thinking more of your straight forward standard "pirate ship waiting in the asteroid belt sees and attacks passing ship" scenario. My original premise is that this type of action would:
a) Not happen as often as some attempt to board involving deception (i.e a hijacking).
b) Would require the target ship to be maneuver-disabled.
c) Would require the target ship to be rendered weaponless.
d) Would require a significant numerical or other form of advantage.
Barring all of these you would more likely have boarding by deception. Or the scenario, where the pirate shows up pummels the ship and runs off with the ship besieging the crew until the run our of life support, air, soylent green paddy cakes (or whatever they eat on starships), heat. electricity, patience . . . whatever and the crew then give up.
Boarding actions dirtside or at a starport/starbase were beyond the scope of the discussion, because they would obviously happen more often, but only to streamlined "landable" vessels.
I just don't think you realistically speaking would run into boarding actions ala Captain Blood in space.
------------------------Yes, I can see all of that, but if you are on a ship for weeks and the only X-box is in the common area . . .
--------------------I realize the crew will do all it can with watches and antihijack programs and all, but you also have to remember that these people are paying customers and you want them to be happy and say good things about your ship. Word gets around you know? You cannot treat customers like they are all hijackers or you won't have a very customer-friendly atmosphere on board and you won't get many hires after a while ( unless of course you are just passing through picking up the odd passengers here and there).
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Unless everyone does it by default and the majority of customers have been convinced that it's for their own good...
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Heh, I gotta steal this. Imagine the scene:
"You prise open the airlock hatch and find yourself looking into a transverse corridor 1.5 metres wide. On the opposite wall is a small metal sign with red lettering. It reads: 'CLAYMORE MINE - THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY'
Take 4D6 damage." :devil:
Unless you use High Guard, then size and armor can render the attacker invulnerable to damage (no boarding ship's with spinal mounts, but bays and turrets are fair game.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Just a few of the things, IMTU, that help limit piracy of ships.
1) Transponders. I don't know what cannon has to say about this (and you could start another thread if you have info) but IMTU, they are not very easy to disable or imitate. NOTE: You can not 'hack' the transponder like hacking a computer. There is no 'software', it is all hard wired.
2) Mortgage companies. A ship is quite an investment. The computer, transponder, and other key systems are designed such that they need codes entered at certain intervals or else systems shut down. These codes are provided at the time payments are made.
3) More codes. Just like the mortgage company codes, captains and crew can configure systems to shut down if a code is not entered within a certain interval.
4) Yes, ships are expensive. A thorough check by the future 'owner' and their mortgage holder is going to be made to protect their investment. This should take months.
Waiting and waiting in the vastness of space for a ship to fly by, blasting at it, taking damage, damaging the target, boarding it, taking losses, possibly killing all the crew that has codes you need... well, this doesn't sound like a good plan for someone planning on using or selling the captured ship.
The concept here is not that it is impossible to operate or sell a stolen ship, but you need to be knowledgeable and properly prepared with skilled people. The type of people that can do this would be more likely to use one of the more deceptive methods to gain access to a ship.
1) Transponders. I don't know what cannon has to say about this (and you could start another thread if you have info) but IMTU, they are not very easy to disable or imitate. NOTE: You can not 'hack' the transponder like hacking a computer. There is no 'software', it is all hard wired.
2) Mortgage companies. A ship is quite an investment. The computer, transponder, and other key systems are designed such that they need codes entered at certain intervals or else systems shut down. These codes are provided at the time payments are made.
3) More codes. Just like the mortgage company codes, captains and crew can configure systems to shut down if a code is not entered within a certain interval.
4) Yes, ships are expensive. A thorough check by the future 'owner' and their mortgage holder is going to be made to protect their investment. This should take months.
Waiting and waiting in the vastness of space for a ship to fly by, blasting at it, taking damage, damaging the target, boarding it, taking losses, possibly killing all the crew that has codes you need... well, this doesn't sound like a good plan for someone planning on using or selling the captured ship.
The concept here is not that it is impossible to operate or sell a stolen ship, but you need to be knowledgeable and properly prepared with skilled people. The type of people that can do this would be more likely to use one of the more deceptive methods to gain access to a ship.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
IIRC the OTU Transponders(Civilian) have an on/off switch to be used in case of "Danger of pirat attacks" so the trader can hide. This is described either in SOM or in the description of the "Smart" transponders in Challenge. Military crafts have a "select who you are" transponder
Boarding through a new hole won't be that uncommon IMHO. If you have a craft that requires aggressiv boarding as opposed to a trader that has given up than the ship will already be badly damaged (M-drives gone etc) and you're likely looking for looting the cargo and spares rather than stealing the ship. Even IF you have a tender that could carry the prize it's more likely to end up as spares
The "wall of fire" only exists IF the freighter crew has access to belt-fed autoweapons and the skill/willingness to use it. And it's only dangerous if you are the first thing through that hole. Enter "Hammelburg-style", let Mr. Grenade lead the way. After all we are talking about boarding a freighter, not ISS Bards Refuge so the Crew will likely have little to no Vacuum-Proof armor and none that a good frag grenade can't endanger. Neither will they be likely to have a maschinegun. IF you are boarding a warship than you better bring Combat Armor or BattleDress. In that case you can IIRC ignore anything below a LAG and that is slow firing.
Attaching your main starship to an enemy, even one that can no longer shoot back is dangerous. Not only do you risk counter-boarding(1) but you might also find the computer slowly citing numbers. Like "5...4...3...2..." and the ships reactor going critical. Besides Counter-Boarding did happen even by non Q-Ships when pirats picked the wrong target
As for "everybody firing down the breach" that requires the breach or airlock to be at the right position. On quite a few ships that's not the case, restricting the firer to a single person or two at most.
As for "boarderers restrain themselfes to not hit the cargo" this again depends on the ships layout and the weapons used. Quite a few ships are layed out in a way that I can start launching 40mm HE-grenades in the crew quarters till Sunday without endangering the cargo.
And the final question is:
Where will one find a merchant crew that CAN and DOES resist with that massive amount of firepower? Where did the Merchants get the weapons, armor and training? Most boarding actions in history where quite peaceful with the violent ones mostly being pirat/privateer vs. warship (Spanish Treasure Fleet Galeons qualify as Warships as did quite a few Hanse-Koggen) or warship vs. warship. The Jolly Rodger in history was a "give up and survive" signal after all
(1) We ARE talking of a dangerous crew here after all, otherwise the discussion is moot
Boarding through a new hole won't be that uncommon IMHO. If you have a craft that requires aggressiv boarding as opposed to a trader that has given up than the ship will already be badly damaged (M-drives gone etc) and you're likely looking for looting the cargo and spares rather than stealing the ship. Even IF you have a tender that could carry the prize it's more likely to end up as spares
The "wall of fire" only exists IF the freighter crew has access to belt-fed autoweapons and the skill/willingness to use it. And it's only dangerous if you are the first thing through that hole. Enter "Hammelburg-style", let Mr. Grenade lead the way. After all we are talking about boarding a freighter, not ISS Bards Refuge so the Crew will likely have little to no Vacuum-Proof armor and none that a good frag grenade can't endanger. Neither will they be likely to have a maschinegun. IF you are boarding a warship than you better bring Combat Armor or BattleDress. In that case you can IIRC ignore anything below a LAG and that is slow firing.
Attaching your main starship to an enemy, even one that can no longer shoot back is dangerous. Not only do you risk counter-boarding(1) but you might also find the computer slowly citing numbers. Like "5...4...3...2..." and the ships reactor going critical. Besides Counter-Boarding did happen even by non Q-Ships when pirats picked the wrong target
As for "everybody firing down the breach" that requires the breach or airlock to be at the right position. On quite a few ships that's not the case, restricting the firer to a single person or two at most.
As for "boarderers restrain themselfes to not hit the cargo" this again depends on the ships layout and the weapons used. Quite a few ships are layed out in a way that I can start launching 40mm HE-grenades in the crew quarters till Sunday without endangering the cargo.
And the final question is:
Where will one find a merchant crew that CAN and DOES resist with that massive amount of firepower? Where did the Merchants get the weapons, armor and training? Most boarding actions in history where quite peaceful with the violent ones mostly being pirat/privateer vs. warship (Spanish Treasure Fleet Galeons qualify as Warships as did quite a few Hanse-Koggen) or warship vs. warship. The Jolly Rodger in history was a "give up and survive" signal after all
(1) We ARE talking of a dangerous crew here after all, otherwise the discussion is moot
TNE canon said that transponders were extremely difficult to mess with or disable, and were therefore the primary means Virus used to spread.
DGP's starship manual said civilian ships can turn theirs off in emergencies (like when they are being hunted by pirates) but that they are very difficult to hack. Military ships, on the other hand, have transponders that can broadcast whatever ID they like.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
I don't agree on point two (and to a lesser degree on three) due to the potential dangers involved in that. What if a ship suffers misjump and has to limp to the next system on M-drive? If the computer shuts down after a month, that will kill the crew. And their next of kind's lawyers will than kill the bank.
Oh and any code system put IN a computer can be broken/circumwented/corrupted. Either through hacking the computer or hacking of unimportant body parts from the code owner/his loved ones/passengers.
Transponders work to a point, depending on WHERE you are. They will likely work in the Marches or SolRim with it's "Cold War/German border" feeling but in Gateway with it's multiple small states I can see a ship "changing flag" very fast, finding itself flagged in a "Money first, questions never" nation
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
I did not state what the interval was. No reason it has to be once a month. Also, 'systems shut down' was probably the wrong way to state it. The concept is different systems may be effected in different ways. Warning messages that codes have not been entered, systems not coming up after being shut down, automatic comm messages saying there is a reward for notifying the mortgage company of the current location of the ship or a reward for it's return. Lot's of possibilities and I don't even know the details for my own TU. Players don't need to know the details, just that they will need Computer, Engineering, and additional skills if their character is trying to disable the security systems. They simply state their intentions and rolling begins.
I did mention systems. Some systems are hard wired and can't be hacked like software on a computer.
People do not know the code before it is entered. A variety of challenge response methods are available and there are devices that generate codes based on different methods. I'm not saying it is impossible to obtain a code though. There are probably back doors too, like master codes for authorities and maintenance workers to use for temporarily gaining access to certain systems.
Mortgage companies may restrict ships from going into dangerous areas. The transponder is just one of several deterrents of piracy. Also, the mortgage company or bounty hunters can still come after the ship. See #4. Typically, a person doesn't buy a starship with a boarding hole blasted in the hull, a disabled transponder, a shut down security system with no codes for reactivation, a title that doesn't match the numbers etched in the hull, and a screwdriver sticking out of the ignition.
I do agree, in certain areas piracy can be much more common than others.
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Indeed. Any place where the pirate can linger without being bothered by the forces of law and order AND defenseless merchant ships arrive often enough to provide him with suitable prey before the next patrol shows up.
Hans
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
You stated "codes are provided at the same time as payments are made" IIRC the payments are monthly things. So I assume a monthly code entry.
And I would not want some stuff hardwired into my computer or ship. It might malfunction and kill me. Software lockouts are dangerous enough.
And I would not want some stuff hardwired into my computer or ship. It might malfunction and kill me. Software lockouts are dangerous enough.
Mark Morgan
SOC-10
one thought I have not seen is that the Zhodani at least CAN begin a baording action on a ship that can manvuer if the y are will to use /irsk their psi comando forces if zho advance a few more tech in Mmega traveler they might start fiting ships with tractor to improve the odds come to think of it maybe the Rengetcy could do this as well in TNE
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