Boarding Actions: Do those really happen?
- Thread starter Shadowfax
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PathfinderAP
SOC-12
I've used boarding actions many times,
Let them think your ship is dead in space (power plant knocked off line, and just drifting) you are no longer a threat, and if they continue to fire on the defenceless ship they risk destroying it (after all it already looks like they have done heavy damage) and most government organisations (you know the ones, the ones with the SDB's) will try to capture you alive,
So play dead let them board with their docking ring, then counter board
You have a far better chance to survive person vs person than ship to ship,
Its worked many many times in play
(It helps in you have ex marines, Battledress and Gauss guns set for panic fire)
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
That's why most of the military escorts useabel in pirat hunting (Gazelle/Fiery, Typ-T) have an armed 20dton Gig. Put the boarding party in the Gig, fly over and board. Worst case you loose the Gig, in that case the guy get's a 500mm nuclear tipped Space Intercept Missile for dessert. And since he has to shut down the reactor to play possum in most systems (Neutrino Sensors!) he won't dodge or shoot that.
Same for pirats, maybe replacing Gig by another small craft. Even in the age of sail they where smart enough to send a ships boat when the other guy struck the colors instead of attaching ship to ship so it's save to assume they do in 1100 Imperial. And since many "pirat ships" either have the hangar (Typ-P) or the small craft already attached (Typ-M) why not use it.
As for an SDB: Those are IMHO the guys LEAST likely to board you. They are the last line of defence before anyone reaches orbit. So with them it's more likely "Stop and wait while the homeworld sends an inspector" and "Shoot after one warning". After all they are easily identified and anyone running from an SDB is either a Darwin Award candidate or a serious criminal.
Same for pirats, maybe replacing Gig by another small craft. Even in the age of sail they where smart enough to send a ships boat when the other guy struck the colors instead of attaching ship to ship so it's save to assume they do in 1100 Imperial. And since many "pirat ships" either have the hangar (Typ-P) or the small craft already attached (Typ-M) why not use it.
As for an SDB: Those are IMHO the guys LEAST likely to board you. They are the last line of defence before anyone reaches orbit. So with them it's more likely "Stop and wait while the homeworld sends an inspector" and "Shoot after one warning". After all they are easily identified and anyone running from an SDB is either a Darwin Award candidate or a serious criminal.
---------------Alles klar! = )
As for my use of 0815 (and 4711): Like rust and you I am one of the resident germans here(1)
----------------Aha!
--------------------According to "Far Trader" it is LL2. That sounds reasonable to me, but so would 3 or 4 actually.
---------------------------did you get all this info from MT? I have never seen it in CT. That is why I ask.
[/QUOTE]
--------------------I knew about the WWI MG and 08/15. I was surprised that you knew it. You aren't German are you? How did you hear about it?
A lot of the info about Tukera is from The Traveller Adventure, although I'm not sure why Tukera wouldn't operate in District 268. After all, they operate in the Vargr Extents. The info about Oberlindes is either from my writeup on JTAS Online or extrapolations from the same material I based my writeup on.
"The escort division consists of a score of paramilitary vessels, mostly in the 400 to 600-ton range. The flagship is the Dianthus Surperbus, an old 1,000-ton Chrysanthemum-class destroyer. In addition the line has two dozen couriers of varying capability from jump-2 to jump-5 that also belong to the escort division." JTAS Online, article 372
Note that this is as of 1119 in the GTU; Oberlindes almost doubled in size in 1105, and presumably the escort division expanded proportionally, so before 1105 it was probably about 60% of that size.Hans
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Not sure of the context but the point is (and I suspect the context may be the same) IF the ship doesn't want to be boarded and still has maneuver capability you're not going to be able to match vectors. Loss of maneuver capability is a requirement for boarding a ship that doesn't want you to.
Earlier in the thread it was argued that boardings can't happen n Traveller unless the target ship was dead in the water.
Granted Mayday isn't the most definitive source of vector mechanics and space combat, but I found it interesting that while HG does require that the target ship be dead in the water, Mayday only requires matching vectors.
Maybe part of the reason is the differences in the scale of ships and battles in HG? Docking a pair of 50kt cruisers together without scuffing the paint would be a tricky thing even if they weren't also shooting at each other and trying to avoid the maneuver. Its not like they can toss a few fenders over the side to protect the paintwork and avoid knocking a turret off the side.
But then I also don't see them jinking about like fighters no matter what their agility might be. Smaller ships, like the 100-400 ton range players usually run around in might have an easier time of it when trying to pull of such a maneuver because their ships would be more nimble even if their agility was the same or less than some battleship.
Personally I could go either way and could make a good argument for either, but IMTU I allow for forced boardings so long as the the boarding ship has greater agility than the target does. Might not be hard sci-fi, but it is the sort of space opera I like in a lot of classic Golden Age Sci-Fi. The players like it and I want them to have fun.
Granted Mayday isn't the most definitive source of vector mechanics and space combat, but I found it interesting that while HG does require that the target ship be dead in the water, Mayday only requires matching vectors.
Maybe part of the reason is the differences in the scale of ships and battles in HG? Docking a pair of 50kt cruisers together without scuffing the paint would be a tricky thing even if they weren't also shooting at each other and trying to avoid the maneuver. Its not like they can toss a few fenders over the side to protect the paintwork and avoid knocking a turret off the side.
But then I also don't see them jinking about like fighters no matter what their agility might be. Smaller ships, like the 100-400 ton range players usually run around in might have an easier time of it when trying to pull of such a maneuver because their ships would be more nimble even if their agility was the same or less than some battleship.
Personally I could go either way and could make a good argument for either, but IMTU I allow for forced boardings so long as the the boarding ship has greater agility than the target does. Might not be hard sci-fi, but it is the sort of space opera I like in a lot of classic Golden Age Sci-Fi. The players like it and I want them to have fun.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
That's really the only reason you need
But...
...dead in the water is not what HG intends and a poor analogy, besides being wrong. Any ship that loses maneuver capability will not suddenly be sitting dead in space. It will continue on the last vector it had until acted on by an outside force. That is the vector you have to match to be able to board. HG simplifies that and just presumes you match vectors eventually, not being concerned with how long it will take for you to catch the ship and match it's vector. And I'm still unconvinced Mayday doesn't mean the same thing. Do you recall the page you read that on to save me scanning the whole thing?
Size, agility of your ship (superior or not), maneuvering capability of your ship (superior or not), none of that matters as long as I can choose at any moment to apply thrust and change my vector. Any thrust I'll add, with the old trick in mind of blowing the cargo doors for a one shot reaction thrust as the air vents to vacuum. Just as you've sidled up nice and close so I can possibly damage your ship/craft and or personnel attempting to board.
There's no "might not be hard sci-fi" about trying to match vectors with a ship capable of maneuvering and intent on not being boarded. It is simple physics.
As noted, it's your prerogative to ignore that and just have fun, but I'd advise you don't. Some player is going to ask questions or spin the tables on you when you least expect it, and probably in a way nobody could anticipate
I have it here in The Big Blue Book of games...but it doesn't have a page number. Its in the movement section, under "Matched Courses". The intent might be open to interpretation but I tend to take wargame rules at their face value.
I was loose with the term "dead in the water", but I mean it only relative to HG's abstract terms. You're right that any ship already moving is going to continue, and not always in its intended last direction depending on what destroyed it's M-drive, but HG is pretty grainy when it comes to what agility really means relative to a ship that is the size of a couple of Nimitz carriers moving at high velocity. Is it how fast it can get moving once the helmsman steps on the pedal, or does it mean it has a cornering speed at 6G constant the same as a 10 ton fighter? I tend towards the former as opposed to the latter because otherwise we are looking at defying the laws of "simple physics" as you mentioned.
But like I said, and you rightly pointed out, I like a universe where boarding actions can happen (although if the pilot muffs it there is heck to pay) so thats what I have. So far nobody has ever objected to them, not that they happen all that often, but that might have something to do with the way I run my game and its overall flavor.
But any player who turns the tables on me often gets rewarded for creative thinking so its something I don't mind. In 33 years of various RPGs and 32 in Traveller it wouldn't be the first time and certainly not the last.
I was loose with the term "dead in the water", but I mean it only relative to HG's abstract terms. You're right that any ship already moving is going to continue, and not always in its intended last direction depending on what destroyed it's M-drive, but HG is pretty grainy when it comes to what agility really means relative to a ship that is the size of a couple of Nimitz carriers moving at high velocity. Is it how fast it can get moving once the helmsman steps on the pedal, or does it mean it has a cornering speed at 6G constant the same as a 10 ton fighter? I tend towards the former as opposed to the latter because otherwise we are looking at defying the laws of "simple physics" as you mentioned.
But like I said, and you rightly pointed out, I like a universe where boarding actions can happen (although if the pilot muffs it there is heck to pay) so thats what I have. So far nobody has ever objected to them, not that they happen all that often, but that might have something to do with the way I run my game and its overall flavor.
But any player who turns the tables on me often gets rewarded for creative thinking so its something I don't mind. In 33 years of various RPGs and 32 in Traveller it wouldn't be the first time and certainly not the last.
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----------------Yeah, well people did a lot of drugs back then. Besides, Mayday was very beer and pretzels. Don't get me wrong, I like boarding actions. They make the game fun.
We are discussing a Role-Playing GAME involving giant talking starfish, uplifted pirate dogs, "bolters, spikers" and lord knows what else along with portable fuision guns and gravitic maneuver drives and jump drives on starships and you think Mayday is beer and pretzels?
Coming from having played non-beer n' pretzel wargames for as long as they were on the market I tend to follow the wargame vs. RPG rule when deciding these matters: in a wargame if it doesn't say you can do something then you can't...in an RPG if it doesn't say you can't do something then you can at least try.
Coming from having played non-beer n' pretzel wargames for as long as they were on the market I tend to follow the wargame vs. RPG rule when deciding these matters: in a wargame if it doesn't say you can do something then you can't...in an RPG if it doesn't say you can't do something then you can at least try.
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
IMTU the transponder is made of multiple parts, from it's own power source and antenna to a piece that has it's own unique identification like a MAC address (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address). Again, I don't go into extreme detail, but one key piece is installed during the early stages of ship construction so to get to it you would need a shipyard, a team of workers with various skills, and it would still take a good deal of time as you disassembled the ship.
Yes, some components are designed to 'self destruct' if tampered with.
If there are reports of Vargr stealing ships in an area there is a high probability that Vargr will be closely watched.
Again 1) Transponder not easy to remove and 2) Transponder is just one deterant 3) I never say piracy/stealing a ship doesn't occure in MTU, just that A) It is not very common (moreso in some locations like on the borders) B) Is more likely to be done through some form of trickery than a ship to ship attack and bording action.
The mortgage company and bounty hunters could come looking for you. If there is any system or indication that lets a greedy adventurer know that the ships ownership is questionable they may look for the quick payday.
Possibly more later. TV show I like is coming on.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Granted it is a wargame and so somewhat abstract (even more so than HG).
For what it's worth the way I read the Mayday rule (if I found the one you mean):
"Matched Courses: When both the present position counters and the future position counters share the same hexes, courses have been matched, and boarding operations are possible."
So, who plots first? (I only glanced but didn't see a resolution for that and can't recall one but it's been ages since I played)
If the victim is the first phase player (and both are starting the turn in the same hex) and the chaser can plot in their phase to end in the same (future position) hex, they have matched courses, and per the rules boarding operations are possible.
But what if the chaser is the first phase player? They plot their move and in my phase as the (intended) victim it's dead easy to avoid ending in the same hex if I have any maneuver capability.
So depending on the turn order interpretation I can't see matching courses as long as the intended victim has maneuver capability.
To be clear sabredog, I'm not really fighting you on this. Just trying to figure it out, or pick your brain more like, as you're fresher with the rules than I am
For what it's worth the way I read the Mayday rule (if I found the one you mean):
"Matched Courses: When both the present position counters and the future position counters share the same hexes, courses have been matched, and boarding operations are possible."
So, who plots first? (I only glanced but didn't see a resolution for that and can't recall one but it's been ages since I played)
If the victim is the first phase player (and both are starting the turn in the same hex) and the chaser can plot in their phase to end in the same (future position) hex, they have matched courses, and per the rules boarding operations are possible.
But what if the chaser is the first phase player? They plot their move and in my phase as the (intended) victim it's dead easy to avoid ending in the same hex if I have any maneuver capability.
So depending on the turn order interpretation I can't see matching courses as long as the intended victim has maneuver capability.
To be clear sabredog, I'm not really fighting you on this. Just trying to figure it out, or pick your brain more like, as you're fresher with the rules than I am
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I know you're not fighting with me on it...I just knew I had seen somewhere in the various rules that boardings were possible between ships under power.
I just spent a little time gaming it out here, and you are right about it depending on who is the phasing "chaser" or not. But as I read the rules and have played it before each game turn consists of 2 player turns...so each game turn each player swaps roles from chaser to target. Therefore there is a chance to maneuver into a matched vector position if you keep at it because each player gets to move first during his phase every turn. It's not easy, and it means the ship you want to catch can't be faster than yours, but it can be done. A ship with a higher g acceleration could just separate and run, but a slower one could eventually get hemmed in and run down.
I might be wrong, too, but the game says the players swap roles during thier phase for each 2-phase game turn.
A small craft with limited burns might have it happen more often since they can't afford to just change vector every turn, but starships have unlimited burn time under Mayday.
Man, I wish I had players who would play the game this way instead of having to use the range bands because they don't want to go to "all that trouble complicating the game"! It would make things much clearer.
I'm still allowing forced boardings, though. They are fun and give everyone a chance to use their cutlasses. And I can use them to beat the players into using Mayday or similar: "Well, gee you guys wouldn't get boarded and your cargo taken away so often if we used a more scientific vector system like I've suggested."
I just spent a little time gaming it out here, and you are right about it depending on who is the phasing "chaser" or not. But as I read the rules and have played it before each game turn consists of 2 player turns...so each game turn each player swaps roles from chaser to target. Therefore there is a chance to maneuver into a matched vector position if you keep at it because each player gets to move first during his phase every turn. It's not easy, and it means the ship you want to catch can't be faster than yours, but it can be done. A ship with a higher g acceleration could just separate and run, but a slower one could eventually get hemmed in and run down.
I might be wrong, too, but the game says the players swap roles during thier phase for each 2-phase game turn.
A small craft with limited burns might have it happen more often since they can't afford to just change vector every turn, but starships have unlimited burn time under Mayday.
Man, I wish I had players who would play the game this way instead of having to use the range bands because they don't want to go to "all that trouble complicating the game"! It would make things much clearer.
I'm still allowing forced boardings, though. They are fun and give everyone a chance to use their cutlasses. And I can use them to beat the players into using Mayday or similar: "Well, gee you guys wouldn't get boarded and your cargo taken away so often if we used a more scientific vector system like I've suggested."
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
It is a pretty slick little game, and it has great missile and small craft rules regarding components and how many burns they have to move with. Long before that JTAS expansion. Nothing like trying to outrun the missiles coming at you hoping they run out of burns before they hit you. Especially since they are much more costly to use in Mayday.
Snapshot for resolving boardings I didn't like so much. Same with AHL...the action points made it feel more mechanical and less role-playerish. I prefer the range bands, but I do it behind the screen while just giving the players the descriptions and color commentary.
Snapshot for resolving boardings I didn't like so much. Same with AHL...the action points made it feel more mechanical and less role-playerish. I prefer the range bands, but I do it behind the screen while just giving the players the descriptions and color commentary.
PathfinderAP
SOC-12
Never was seen as a pirate, and never had to face off against anything larger than a SDB thats was via government organisations (maybe due to the ships low tonnage, but you'd have to ask my GM) largest ever, was a Merc 800tn
(but we got very lucky and blew it up with a critcal hit)
But lets see what we can do with this....
If they had sent over a Gig, I would try to synchronize the boarding to drawing as many marines as possible on board my ship, while having the other part of my crew come out of hidding to the rear (and if they can counter board their gig before being seen to make that their priority)
Either way we would aim to capture as many hostages as possible,
With a gig it would be almost impossible to counter board their much larger vessel, unless you could some how use one of the captured hostages and try risking a bluff to get your way on board their ship (I would never put money, or crew on that, stupid low chance of working, and if it hits the fan its a very bad place to be, so not worth the risk)
But if we can hold out, (do they want to fire on us if we have their crew?, maybe, maybe not, and we could space the already dead marines, (but let them think they were alive first :smirk and threaten to space the rest if they act aggressively )
and try to make the run to the jump point while they are thinking about what to do next, if they let us to get to the jump point, we let them keep their helmets on when they leave the ship,
They send a SDB because its a single fast and heavly armed ship,
(more than a match for G2, 100 - 200tn ship) And they always shoot first, always, I try to make the ship float dead stick as early on as possible before they do enough damage to our ship as to wreck our only mean of escape, the friggin crippling cost of repairs is also an issue..
(but we got very lucky and blew it up with a critcal hit)
But lets see what we can do with this....
If they had sent over a Gig, I would try to synchronize the boarding to drawing as many marines as possible on board my ship, while having the other part of my crew come out of hidding to the rear (and if they can counter board their gig before being seen to make that their priority)
Either way we would aim to capture as many hostages as possible,
With a gig it would be almost impossible to counter board their much larger vessel, unless you could some how use one of the captured hostages and try risking a bluff to get your way on board their ship (I would never put money, or crew on that, stupid low chance of working, and if it hits the fan its a very bad place to be, so not worth the risk)
But if we can hold out, (do they want to fire on us if we have their crew?, maybe, maybe not, and we could space the already dead marines, (but let them think they were alive first :smirk
and threaten to space the rest if they act aggressively )and try to make the run to the jump point while they are thinking about what to do next, if they let us to get to the jump point, we let them keep their helmets on when they leave the ship,
(but even pirates would counter board an enemy ship too, tis true)
They send a SDB because its a single fast and heavly armed ship,
(more than a match for G2, 100 - 200tn ship) And they always shoot first, always, I try to make the ship float dead stick as early on as possible before they do enough damage to our ship as to wreck our only mean of escape, the friggin crippling cost of repairs is also an issue..
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PathfinderAP
SOC-12
I can't see how you could do that without knocking out the M drive or Power Plant, it would be an easy thing for a faster ship to intercept a slower ship while flying at full G's,
but to try boarding (or clamping) a ship while it was spinning on its axis would be very hard, (best to just destroy the M drive first)
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mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Well how the Navy reacts to pirats taking hostages is each GM's decision. Mine would be a nice ultimatum like "You have 20 minutes to release the hostages. Refuse to do it or try to move/fire up your reactors and you'll be fired apon" followed by a nuklear tipped missile shortly after the ultimatum ends.
Yes, I loose between 14 and 26 personal. But pirats quickly learn that taking marines hostage means death. Similar to what ElAl did with armored cockpit doors and a "don't yield" policy. You can blow their planes up but you can't take them.
The rest is a matter of codes, fake codes, alarm codes etc.
Yes, I loose between 14 and 26 personal. But pirats quickly learn that taking marines hostage means death. Similar to what ElAl did with armored cockpit doors and a "don't yield" policy. You can blow their planes up but you can't take them.
The rest is a matter of codes, fake codes, alarm codes etc.
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