CT Only: Book 2 Design and Construction plus Book 3 TL table

[snrdg082102]

Capacitors are introduced in Book 5 as part of the Black Globe rules.

Book 5 is not Book 2 which means that someone using Book 2 would not have a clue about jump capacitors

Yes, that pretty well sums it up. I'm told the 1977 version did not require the jump drive to have a power plant. There was something about drawing life support power from the jump drive, or maybe it was batteries, I don't know. I guess sometime between '77 and '81, it occurred to someone that the idea could be abused.

The Book 2 1977 express boat, in my opinion, was the abuse of the rules. However, not requiring a specific amount of power plant output to run the jump be included in calculating the size of the power plant is not reasonable in my opinion. The computer and most of the weapons have power requirements that shape the power plant's size. The abstract rule of needing to maintain full power plant output for two turns means to me that the ship is pretty much a sitting duck since most of the power is being sent to the jump drive. IIRC, which I probably don't, MT does tie the power plant to the jump drive.

Yeah, that's what most of us using HG do. The x-boat ends up being a bit different because HG leaves us with room for a maneuver drive, but it's not a major problem.

Unfortunately, Supplement 7 is a combination of Book 2 First edition and High Guard First/Second editions. I'm sure that the express boat and express boat tender did not get upgrade to Book 2 Second edition. I haven't even tried seeing which of the designs used either Book 2 1st ed. Book 2 2nd ed., HG1 or HG2.

Personally having a maneuver drive is not a big issue since the only purpose would be the cutting down on the time for the express boat and the tender to rendezvous. If there is enough space I'd put in a larger cargo area or devote more space to the data banks.

Thanks again for putting up with me.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
I could have sworn that High Guard 1980 Second edition retained the part that planetary bombardment requires magazines, but I cannot seem to dug the material out.

Can anyone point me to the right source pleas,...

High Guard second edition suggested that the player could use an empty weapons bay to carry deadfall ordnance for planetary bombardment (P30), it mentions the use of a black globe to achieve sensor invisibility to drift past defenders and stage a surprise bombardment (P43), and it provides for planetary bombardment during the terminal step (P47). It otherwise does not address planetary bombardment. There are no rules on the subject in HG 2e.

 

[rancke]

Yeah, that's what most of us using HG do. The x-boat ends up being a bit different because HG leaves us with room for a maneuver drive, but it's not a major problem.

It wouldn't have been a major problem if GDW had bit the bullet back then and retconned the X-boats to have maneuver drives. But as they didn't, there has been and still is a major problem in plausibility ever since.



Hans

 

[rancke]

Book 5 is not Book 2 which means that someone using Book 2 would not have a clue about jump capacitors.

Not unless someone who did have Book 5 had been kind enough to provide such a clue, no.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Capacitors are introduced in Book 5 as part of the Black Globe rules.

Book 5 is not Book 2 which means that someone using Book 2 would not have a clue about jump capacitors

Not unless someone who did have Book 5 had been kind enough to provide such a clue, no.


Hans

Actually, first reference to them I find is in JTAS 2, on page 5, which predates HG-79, but only by a couple months. In the TAS News Feed article.

⑆ REGINA/REGINA (0310-A788899-A) Date: 097-1105
¶ Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina today announced that they have completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd drop tanks for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. The first production examples are expected to be available within six months, at which time Tukera Lines will begin high capacity service from the interior. Component assembly will be carried out at General's more modern facilities on Pixie (0303-A100103-D).
¶ L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel.
¶ A spokesman for General Shipyards explained that local yards are not yet capable of manufacturing the long-storage capacitors required for the process, but that production of the drop tanks is possible, thus allowing the high capacity starships of the Tukera Lines to begin service to the Regina subsector.
¶ L-Hyd drop tanks are not reusable, and thus increase the absolute cost per jump. However, experience has shown that the increase in cargo tonnage resulting from the elimination of internal J-fuel storage more than makes up for this, the press release explained.
¶ The joint press release concluded by stating that local manufacture of L-Hyd drop tanks marked the dawn of a newsera of commerce and prosperity in the Regina subsector. Following the announcement, common stock in Oberlindes Lines plummeted 27 points on the Regina exchange before trading was suspended. Officials of Oberlindes Lines were not available for comment. Ω​

So, there are ways one might have found out (much like I did) without anyone in the group having Book 5....

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Hans,

It wouldn't have been a major problem if GDW had bit the bullet back then and retconned the X-boats to have maneuver drives. But as they didn't, there has been and still is a major problem in plausibility ever since.



Hans

I do not consider not having a maneuver drive any sort of problem at all. The express boat, as suggested by the background material, is designed to make interstellar jumps and not for interplanetary travel.

The major problem, in my opinion, was trying to circumvent the need for a power plant and the fuel tankage using Book 2 1977 Frist edition. The next problem occurred when time was not taken to rework design under Book 2 1980 Second edition rules. The current problem is the errata's attempt to rework the express boat under Book 2 1980 Second edition rules by circumventing the power plant fuel tankage rule.

The, in my opinion, better option would be to rework the express boat using Book 5 leaving as much of the background material untouched in Supplement 7 as possible. Of course an additional note could be added indicating that later express boats include maneuver drives.

 

[rancke]

I do not consider not having a maneuver drive any sort of problem at all.

I do.

The express boat, as suggested by the background material, is designed to make interstellar jumps and not for interplanetary travel.

I'm not insisting that an X-boat would need a powerful maneuver drive. Just enough to rendevouz with the tender, avoid collisions, perform emergency tasks, that sort of trivial problems. A 0.1G drive would be enough to avoid total design imbecility.

Instead they tasked the tender to rendevouz with the maneuverless X-boat. Which works fine, at least in theory, right up to the point when the tender has to collect two or more X-boats at the same time.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning again Hans and the first top of the morning to aramis,

Not unless someone who did have Book 5 had been kind enough to provide such a clue, no.


Hans

Book 5, as far as I know, is not intended to supersede Book 2 or modify what is basically the quick design system for CT.

Individuals having access to only Book 2 would not know about jump capacitors without having another source of information, which could be by some kind person providing the tidbit or wading through Book 5 or magazines like JTAS.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Carlobrand,

My apologies for replying out of order of the posts, I opened the forum from the main web page instead of from my email.

High Guard second edition suggested that the player could use an empty weapons bay to carry deadfall ordnance for planetary bombardment (P30), it mentions the use of a black globe to achieve sensor invisibility to drift past defenders and stage a surprise bombardment (P43), and it provides for planetary bombardment during the terminal step (P47). It otherwise does not address planetary bombardment. There are no rules on the subject in HG 2e.

Thank you for the page numbers and I was correct about planetary bombardment being mentioned in Book 5 Second edition.

 

[rancke]

Book 5, as far as I know, is not intended to supersede Book 2 or modify what is basically the quick design system for CT.

Since the two systems are mutually contradictory AND Book 2 is incompatible with the Third Imperium setting, that's exactly what GDW ought to have done. Instead, they put in that egregiously silly grandfathering clause, surely a strong contender for the Worst Decision Ever Made by the Traveller Powers That Were Award.

As it is, if you want to stick to Book 2, you can either ignore Book 5 completely or scavenge it for bits that work with Book 2.

Individuals having access to only Book 2 would not know about jump capacitors without having another source of information, which could be by some kind person providing the tidbit or wading through Book 5 or magazines like JTAS.

That's just what I said, or at least meant to say. With the added implication that in this day and age anyone with access to the internet is in a position to get in contact with kind persons with access to Book 5 and JTAS.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Hans,

Since the two systems are mutually contradictory AND Book 2 is incompatible with the Third Imperium setting, that's exactly what GDW ought to have done. Instead, they put in that egregiously silly grandfathering clause, surely a strong contender for the Worst Decision Ever Made by the Traveller Powers That Were Award.

As it is, if you want to stick to Book 2, you can either ignore Book 5 completely or scavenge it for bits that work with Book 2.

Hans, Traveller LBBs 1-3 1977 established the Third Imperium setting as a very vague power and left filling in the details to the players.

Guess what the players are the ones responsible for making LBB 1 - 3 incompatible as mentioned here.

Apparently someone decided that jump drives shouldn't be able to do six parsecs and decided to change the technology that was established in LBB 2.

Funny, Book 5 references Book 2 for crew then there is Book 6 that uses material from Book 3 so there is some compatibility.

That's just what I said, or at least meant to say. With the added implication that in this day and age anyone with access to the internet is in a position to get in contact with kind persons with access to Book 5 and JTAS.


Hans

Let's see I know a few people who don't use computers or want access to the internet. However you are correct if someone had access and the desire to contact someone then the material after LBB 1 - 3 would be available.

Have a good day or night or afternoon your time

 

[rancke]

Hans, Traveller LBBs 1-3 1977 established the Third Imperium setting as a very vague power and left filling in the details to the players.

That was 35 years ago. Since then GDW and its successors have filled in a lot of details. Among these details were the fact that in the Third Imperium setting, jump-2 is impossible to achieve with TL9. That's a hard fact in the Third Imperium universe.

I never said you couldn't have any number of universes where Book 2 ship design works; I'm merely saying that the Third Imperium's universe is not one of them.

(Indeed, an alternate universe where Book 2 ship design works as advertised could be fun to develop.)

Apparently someone decided that jump drives shouldn't be able to do six parsecs and decided to change the technology that was established in LBB 2.

Indeed. And the really important point in that sentence is that the technology was changed.

Funny, Book 5 references Book 2 for crew then there is Book 6 that uses material from Book 3 so there is some compatibility.

It would be very strange if there were no compatibility at all between any two ship design systems (not limited to Traveller versions). But the Book 2 Kinunir, for example, does not work under Book 5, not even with the pernicious grandfathering clause; it is bigger than 1000T, so Book 2 rules are not applicable.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hans,

I'm not sure what I have done to put a burr under your saddle and I apologize for getting the dander up.

I'm going to stop the discussion since neither of us appear to see eye to eye on the topic.

My intent was to bring the various designs if possible in to line with each of the approved design and constructions with the help of the forum members.

Unfortunately, I do not appear to be up to the task.

Thank you for you view point on the topic of the original LBB 1 -3 rules.

Have a good one.

That was 35 years ago. Since then GDW and its successors have filled in a lot of details. Among these details were the fact that in the Third Imperium setting, jump-2 is impossible to achieve with TL9. That's a hard fact in the Third Imperium universe.

I never said you couldn't have any number of universes where Book 2 ship design works; I'm merely saying that the Third Imperium's universe is not one of them.

(Indeed, an alternate universe where Book 2 ship design works as advertised could be fun to develop.)


Indeed. And the really important point in that sentence is that the technology was changed.


It would be very strange if there were no compatibility at all between any two ship design systems (not limited to Traveller versions). But the Book 2 Kinunir, for example, does not work under Book 5, not even with the pernicious grandfathering clause; it is bigger than 1000T, so Book 2 rules are not applicable.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The only way to bring the various design systems into line is to cherry pick and then publish a new definitive guide to ship building.

You could point at T5 and say that is it, but sadly the T5 ACS construction system just reinforces the peculiarities.

No amount of errata can ever bring 77, 81 HG1 and HG2 into alignment, such errata would in effect be producing HG3.

 

[rancke]

I'm not sure what I have done to put a burr under your saddle and I apologize for getting the dander up.

Don't worry, you are not getting my dander up. I'm merely trying to explain (as Mike does a lot better) that the task you have set for yourself cannot be achieved, which makes some of your questions unanswerable. How can you reconcile Book 2 and HG without disregarding anything? You can't.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello mike Wightman,

The only way to bring the various design systems into line is to cherry pick and then publish a new definitive guide to ship building.

You could point at T5 and say that is it, but sadly the T5 ACS construction system just reinforces the peculiarities.

No amount of errata can ever bring 77, 81 HG1 and HG2 into alignment, such errata would in effect be producing HG3.

My intention was not to bring the rule sets into alignment but to verify that the published ship could be built under the rule set used to design the hull. If I failed to recreate the ship as described my intention was to make minimal changes to make the design conform to the background information.

The express boat under Book 2 1977 appears to be a viable 100-ton design as described even after adding a power plant and changing the hull to a custom one. Adding a maneuver drive would result in a design over 100 tons. Unfortunately, Book 2 1981 replaced the first edition

Book 2 1981, as detailed in this topic thread, cannot be built following the design and construction rules on a 100-ton hull. However, a non-standard hull of 180 tons appears to work.

Book 5 according to the forum members a 100-ton J4 express boat is viable at TL 13 with a power plant and a maneuver drive.

The best recommendation I would have suggested was to change the express boat design using Book 2 first edition, stated that the design could not be designed as a 100-ton hull using Book 2 Second edition and provide the information of the design using HG2 rules.

Unfortunately, I've discovered I'm not up to the task so what is broken will continue to be broken.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Hans,

Don't worry, you are not getting my dander up. I'm merely trying to explain (as Mike does a lot better) that the task you have set for yourself cannot be achieved, which makes some of your questions unanswerable. How can you reconcile Book 2 and HG without disregarding anything? You can't.


Hans

My intention, which I obviously failed to communicate clearly, was to not bring the rule sets into alignment but to verify that the ship could be built using the design and construction for each rule set. If possible my intention was to provide errata for any design that I could not match to bring the design in alignment with each design and construction rules set.

Since I failed to make clear my intentions and the amount of trouble that failure has caused I have shelved the project concluding that I'm not up to the task.

Thank you for your help and view points

 

[Carlobrand]

It wouldn't have been a major problem if GDW had bit the bullet back then and retconned the X-boats to have maneuver drives. But as they didn't, there has been and still is a major problem in plausibility ever since. ...

Question:
The x-boat as presented in Supplement 7 has no maneuver drive. There's a tender, also presented in Supplement 7, that goes and fetches it. Then comes High Guard, and we can design an x-boat with a maneuver drive. Has there in fact been any mention of the x-boat and its lack of maneuver in canon since the publication of High Guard, or is this a case where they simply stopped talking about it other than discussing x-boat routes?

(The other interesting bit is you can design a jump-5 x-boat at TL14.)

The only way to bring the various design systems into line is to cherry pick and then publish a new definitive guide to ship building. ...

Well, plan B is to take selected ships and declare them unique. For example, you could say the free trader is cheap because it uses a cheaper but much less efficient power plant, requiring five times as much fuel to achieve the same output. Similar story with the jump drive - cheaper but much larger for it. (Me, I also say the maneuver drive uses the fuel as reaction mass instead of thrusting the ship the way the more usual drives do, but that one gets tricky.) You could do something similar for the subsidized merchant. The rest of the ships you redesign to Book-5 standards, since their profitability isn't an issue, and you otherwise forget that Book-2 ever existed.

... Unfortunately, I've discovered I'm not up to the task so what is broken will continue to be broken.

Neither were we. I think most of us have taken a tilt at that particular windmill at some point. Some things aren't fixable.

 

[aramis]

The only way to bring the various design systems into line is to cherry pick and then publish a new definitive guide to ship building.

You could point at T5 and say that is it, but sadly the T5 ACS construction system just reinforces the peculiarities.

No amount of errata can ever bring 77, 81 HG1 and HG2 into alignment, such errata would in effect be producing HG3.

Try HG4. HG3 is T20.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Carlobrand,

Originally Posted by snrdg082102
... Unfortunately, I've discovered I'm not up to the task so what is broken will continue to be broken.

Neither were we. I think most of us have taken a tilt at that particular windmill at some point. Some things aren't fixable.

I was not trying to align Book 2 77/81 with HG1 79/HG2 80 with each other.

My intention was (1) determine which design system, Book 2 or Book 5 the featured ship used, (2) verify that I could recreate the ship using the correct book, (3) provide errata on ship's that I couldn't match with the assistance of the forum members, and (4) convert Book 2 ships to the design and construction rules in Book 5.

I was also intending to try minimize the changes needed to keep the ship as close to the background written for it whenever possible.

Unfortunately, I was not and probably still have not, clearly communicated my intentions which has led me to abandon my project.

However, the express boat cannot be built in Book 2 1981 and the Consolidated Errata's correction is just as broken and illegal as the original Book 2 1977 design, in my opinion.

Thinking matters over the express boat and the express boat tender prices are probably off under HG2 rules since the express boat uses a combination of a flattened(?) sphere and cone while the tender uses a close structure and a cylinder split in half to create the hull.

Again thank you Carlobrand and everyone else who have put up with me.