Book 2: Most important clarification

[far-trader]

Part 2 of reply...

What I do think is that it is incompatible with HG. That two ships designed with the same specs in the two systems will be more different in cost and cargo space than a little inexactitude can explain.

It depends on the approach taken I guess. My approach is that HG can recreate the spirit of the B2 designs pretty faithfully. Or you can start from scratch and make up whole new versions that take advantage of every nuance. But to me that smells a bit like munchkinism

Sadly, I've mislaid my High Guard, so I can't work out any examples.

Well, if you recall enough of HG to know what you're plugging in you could use Andrew M-V's High Guard Shipyard program to crunch the numbers. Great little utility. I can't find a bookmark for the download link (maybe it's in the fLibrary here?) If you drop me a PM I can email a copy.

 

[Supplement Four]

Sadly, I've mislaid my High Guard, so I can't work out any examples. But try working out, say, a barebones 600T jump-3 freighter
[*], and see what the final cost and cargo space comes to in the two systems.

No examples necessary. I'll take your word for it.

I actually prefer Book 2 for combat and ship construction over HG. I like HG. I understand what it's used for. It's just that Book 2 is a better system for adventure class vessles and role playing focus.

 

[robject]

I actually prefer Book 2 for combat and ship construction over HG. I like HG. I understand what it's used for. It's just that Book 2 is a better system for adventure class vessles and role playing focus.

I think that's my take as well. Until last year, I've been unable to leave Book 2, because there was no substitute for its ease of use.

I had another thought -- why bother with High Guard for ship construction*? It became obsolete the day MegaTraveller came out. With MT's vehicle design rules you have the most options, the widest volume range and the widest technological range. For all its errata, MT is a superior product, and more faithfully represents the OTU. It's even superior to T4.

Now, Oz and Mike Wightman had worked on back-converting MegaTraveller's design tables into Book 2 parlance. In my mind, that's a win-win. What you get is no longer Book 2, and no longer MT, but the best of both worlds.

Another way to do it is to create something new, based on ideas from T4, TNE, MT, and CT. That's what I think T5 has done, and that's why I can finally leave Book 2. (I add that Book 2 designs work better with T5 than High Guard).

Of course, the ultimate goal would be to craft something new which is somehow compatible with High Guard designs.



* I'll answer my own question: because about half of all extant Traveller starship designs are in High Guard format. Also note that perhaps a third of all extant Traveller starship designs are in Book 2 format; hence throwing Book 2 out just doesn't work all that well.

 

[BlackBat242]

Just a comment on the TL difference for jump 3, etc between book 2 & book 5.

Book 5 shows the TL where it is possible to design a given jump drive, maneuver drive, or power plant.

Book 2 shows the TL where it is possible to manufacture a given jump drive, maneuver drive, or power plant, using fabrication instructions drawn up at the design TL.

This accounts for some of the tonnage differences, as the lower TL manufacturing plant cannot make components quite as small or efficient as the higher TL plant can, even though they still perform the same functions.

This is similar to using vacuum tubes or transistors to build two different TL radar sets with the same performance capability. The VT set will be larger & heavier, and require greater input voltages & current, requiring a larger power plant that uses more fuel.

Or linear IC chips vs surface-mount programmable microprocessor chips.

 

[BlackBat242]

B2 are the old Vilani tech. Tried and tested for ages, but bulkier in ways (larger jump drives, less efficient power plants, fusion torch thrusters). They are limited by TL in a different fashion (jump drives for example not being limited in production to the range but the size, lower TL small drives can be built with the resources of a lower TL). B2 drives are largely component assemblies.

But that's not the OTU, or anywhere near it. In the OTU the Vilani learnt how to build jump-1, not how to build Jump Drives A, B, and C. The jump-1 drive spread to their neighbors, so when they invented jump-2, not Jump Drive J-K, at TL 11, they tried to keep it to themselves. And when the Terrans invented Jump-3, not Jump Drive L-N, they became able to make 3-parsec jumps and the Vilani couldn't. There's no possible way this can be reconciled with Book 2ship designs.

Hans

But I’ve never been NOT able to reconcile the book 2 drive tables with jump numbers.

Look at those "drive numbers" this way… the letter represents a design specification… describing the size, strength, and shape of the intended jump field, as well as the power required, shape of the drive module, etc.

This eliminates the need to go to extreme lengths try to find a drive that will fit your ship somewhere far from the source of that drive module.
Ex: “Nope, we don’t have a Mannheim-Voss XC3-A around… never heard of it in fact. Is it anything like a Packard-Luyev 38-CN?”

The specification letter tells you that ANY drive manufactured to that spec will fit & function in your ship, with only minor adjustments/fitting required.

So that “Jump Drive B” is actually either a Mannheim-Voss XC3-A or a Packard-Luyev 38-CN… or any of a hundred other brand name/model number combinations that are certified to the “Jump Drive B” specification.

In this way, far-trader is absolutely correct... book 2 drives are single, "plug&play component assemblies", that can be swapped between ships with only minor work.



As for why they didn’t do J4s in 100 dt ships fitted with JD-B… or other such combinations, the book 2 tables & drive letters are a 3rd Imperium convention, and bear little relevance to what the 1st (Vilani) Imperium was doing.

Whether they could do it or not, they had never gotten around to verifying & certifying that jumps greater than 2 were safe, nor had they developed the control software, etc to enable safe, controlled, & repeatable J3s.

Why not? Because the Vilani are conservative to a fault, and their entire mindset up to their being slam-danced by those Solomani punks was a sedate, stately waltz that placed top value on tradition & comformity, and since their government saw no need for anything above J2, J3 was never allowed to be developed (and if anyone did, it was suppressed quickly & thoroughly). Thus, their TL advancement was far slower than those radical, impulsive, risk-taking Terrans.


And this IS OTU, or at least does not contradict OTU... as this fits right in with what has been discussed repeatedly on this board concerning Vilani attitudes derived from later canon sources.

 

[Supplement Four]

Just a comment on the TL difference for jump 3, etc between book 2 & book 5.

Book 5 shows the TL where it is possible to design a given jump drive, maneuver drive, or power plant.

Book 2 shows the TL where it is possible to manufacture a given jump drive, maneuver drive, or power plant, using fabrication instructions drawn up at the design TL.

This accounts for some of the tonnage differences, as the lower TL manufacturing plant cannot make components quite as small or efficient as the higher TL plant can, even though they still perform the same functions.

This is similar to using vacuum tubes or transistors to build two different TL radar sets with the same performance capability.

I'm definitely no guru when it comes to Traveller construction. I've only built a few Book 2 ships in my Traveller gaming life, and no HG vessels. FF&S wasn't the godsend to me that it was to the crunch masters and gearheads.

But, my take on the differences in Book 2 and HG has always been along the same lines as what our Mr. Blackbat says above.

Can't the two exist, logically, in the Traveller universe?

I may be mistaken, but I thought Book 2 was considered to be standardized components that were assembled to create a starship whereas HG provided construction from scratch--custom naval construction for world navies and such.

 

[aramis]

Can they coexist in the same universe? Yes.
Can they logically exist in the same universe? well... I don't think so. They describe rather different paradigms.

But, there are naval designs in the real world that don't make sense, either, unless you dig deep into design parameters outside the scope of what Bk2 and Bk5 design systems cover...

 

[rancke]

Look at those "drive numbers" this way… the letter represents a design specification… describing the size, strength, and shape of the intended jump field, as well as the power required, shape of the drive module, etc.

This eliminates the need to go to extreme lengths try to find a drive that will fit your ship somewhere far from the source of that drive module.
Ex: “Nope, we don’t have a Mannheim-Voss XC3-A around… never heard of it in fact. Is it anything like a Packard-Luyev 38-CN?”

The specification letter tells you that ANY drive manufactured to that spec will fit & function in your ship, with only minor adjustments/fitting required.

So that “Jump Drive B” is actually either a Mannheim-Voss XC3-A or a Packard-Luyev 38-CN… or any of a hundred other brand name/model number combinations that are certified to the “Jump Drive B” specification.

In this way, far-trader is absolutely correct... book 2 drives are single, "plug&play component assemblies", that can be swapped between ships with only minor work.

I wouldn't dream of disputing that. What I am claiming is that the specifications for a Power Plant B in a milieu where HG rules are a reasonable reflection of reality wouldn't be anything like the Book 2 specifications. It would mass 6T, cost MCr18, and use 2T of fuel in 30 days. Not mass 7T, cost MCr16, and use 20T of fuel in in 30 days[*]. A Jump Drive D would mass 6T and cost MCr24, not mass 25T and cost MCr40. A Maneuver Drive C would cost MCr2.5, not MCr12. These are not trivial differences.

[*] Ignoring for the purpose of this discussion the fact that using 2T in 30 days is already ridiculous, never mind 20T.​

And if the Book 2 and the HG Jump Drive D were both available, who would ever use the Book 2 drive? You don't think that in the vast majority of situations, saving 19T of space and MCr16 in cost would be worth waiting a couple of months more for delivery?

As for why they didn’t do J4s in 100 dt ships fitted with JD-B… or other such combinations, the book 2 tables & drive letters are a 3rd Imperium convention, and bear little relevance to what the 1st (Vilani) Imperium was doing.

That's not what I was referring to. I'm referring to the technological tables, which, in Book 2 (TTB, actually) clearly states that TL9 gives you the ability to build drives A-D. This would enable the Vilani to build J2 ships at TL9, as long as the ship wasn't bigger than 200T. OTOH, they would be unable to build Jump-1 drives for any ship bigger than 400T. By HG rules, TL 9 gives you the ability to build jump-1 drives for any size of ship, but not jump-2 drives for any size of ship. And it's the second paradigm of the two that the canonical history of the OTU implies. Whivh means that the Book 2 rules do not conform to the physical laws of the OTU.

Why not? Because the Vilani are conservative to a fault..., and their entire mindset up to their being slam-danced by those Solomani punks was a sedate, stately waltz that placed top value on tradition & comformity, and since their government saw no need for anything above J2, J3 was never allowed to be developed (and if anyone did, it was suppressed quickly & thoroughly). Thus, their TL advancement was far slower than those radical, impulsive, risk-taking Terrans.

They don't need to advance in order to build jump-2 ships. According to Book 2, that is. A 100T ship with a Jump Drive A is by definition capable of performing jump-2. So inventing jump drive makes a civilization capable of performing jump-2. Which is one reason Book 2 rules don't fit the OTU.



Hans

 

[rancke]

I may be mistaken, but I thought Book 2 was considered to be standardized components that were assembled to create a starship whereas HG provided construction from scratch--custom naval construction for world navies and such.

And an excellent idea for a Book 2 ship design system that is. The problem, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that the standardized components don't conform to the physical laws implied by HG.

Now, if the Book 2 drive and plant table looked like this:

Jump drive, maneuver drive and power plant tables.
--------------------------------------------------

    Jump         Maneuver     Power
    Drive        Drive        Plant
    Mass  MCr    Mass  MCr    Mass   MCr
A    2      8      2     1       3     9
B    3     12      4     2       6    18
C    4     16      5   2.5       9    27
D    6     24      8     4      12    36
E    8     32     10     5      18    54
F   12     48     12     6      24    72
G   16     64     16     8      30    90
H   18     72     20    10      36   108
J   20     80     30    15      48   144
K   24     96     32    16      54   162
L   30    120     40    20      60   180
M   32    128     48    24      72   216
N   40    160     50    25      90   270
P   60    240     60    30     120   360
Q   80    320     64    32     150   450
R   90    360     80    40     180   540
S  100    400    100    50     240   720
T  120    480    150    75     270   810
U  150    600    160    80     300   900
V  160    640    200   100     360  1080
W  200    800    240   120     450  1350
X    -      -    250   125       -     -
Y    -      -    320   160       -     -
Z    -      -    400   200       -     -

The following restrictions apply based on TL: At TL 9 and 10, only jump-1
drives may be built; at TL 11, only jump-1 and jump-2 drives may be built;
at TL 12, only jump-1 through jump-3 may be built; at TL 13, only jump-1
through jump-4 may be built; at TL 14, only jump-1 through jump-5 may be
built; at TL 15, jump-1 through jump-6 may be built.


At TL 13 and 14, power plant tonnage and cost are reduced by one third; at
TL 15, they're reduced by another third (E.g. a power plant-A masses 2 tons
and costs MCr6 at TL 13 and 14; it masses 1 T and costs MCr3 at TL 15).

...I would have no complaints at all.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Sundry comments:

- LBB;2 and HG2 cannot easily be made to work with each other and any such attempt necessarily becomes an IMTU exercise.

- For what it's worth, the "solution" BlackBat posted as always been the "solution" IMTU. The HG2's drive TL requirements and the TL tree in LBB:3 refer to the tech level at which any given drive is invented and developed for general use while the letter code drives in LBB:2 refer to "retro-engineered" or "universal" designs.

- A HG2 jump6 drive can only be built by a yard with a certain TL. A LBB:2 jump6 drive can be built by any yard capable of building jump drives.

- Drives in HG2 are specifically built for a given vessel and at certain tech level. Drives in LBB:2 are modules that are designed to be built at many tech levels installed in any vessel. HG2 drives can only be overhauled and repaired at yards at or above the TL of their manufacture. LBB:2 drives can be overhauled and repaired at any yard.

- Drives in HG2 save the architect volume and provide the benefits of being specifically built for the application at hand while also requiring maintenance and repairs at specific locations. Drives in LBB:2 cost the architect volume but can be maintained and repaired nearly everywhere.

Of course, all of this is completely In My Traveller Universe.


Regards,
Bill