BTN trade partner listing for just one world

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
What follows is a data dump giving people an idea of just how honking HUGE the trade set up is when using the rules from GURP TRAVELLER FAR TRADER.

The "format" of the information was something I am using for a program I wrote (quick and dirty - so it ain't pretty and it ain't finished!) I have a subroutine that will calculate distances between hexes in an XXYY format such that 2124 would become 21 for the X value and 24 for the Y value. Below are "Trade Partners" for any given world pairing that matches the criteria of having a BTN of 6.5 and higher. What I did was take into account the distance penalty involved, and if memory serves me correctly, corrected for different states (Sword World not being Imperial, while Lunion being Imperial for example). What I didn't code for was whether or not the world had a trade pairing (Ag to NA or In to Ni). That only would have increased the BTN value by .5 in any event.

Home Hex/World Name/Destination Hex/Destination World Name/BTN/Distance in parsecs

Lunion Alone has some 321 Trade partners whose BTN values exceed 6.5.

What prompted me to dump this here was a conversation elsewhere regarding ports and economics involved and trying to estimate the shipping volume required to carry on the required trade.

Note: I had to cut this into two segments because the combined character total was 11376, had to cut it into two parts. Sorry!




2124/LUNION/0101/Zeycude/6.5/33
2124/LUNION/0102/Reno/6.5/32
2124/LUNION/0103/Errere/6.5/31
2124/LUNION/0108/Gyomar/7/26
2124/LUNION/0303/Gesentown/6.5/30
2124/LUNION/0304/CHRONOR/8/29
2124/LUNION/0307/Atsa/7/26
2124/LUNION/0605/Algebaster/7/26
2124/LUNION/0608/Ninjar/7.5/23
2124/LUNION/0610/Sheyou/7/21
2124/LUNION/0705/Cipango/7.5/26
2124/LUNION/0805/Narval/7.5/25
2124/LUNION/0808/Quar/7/22
2124/LUNION/0904/Chwistyoch/7/26
2124/LUNION/0909/Gougeste/6.5/21
2124/LUNION/1004/Esalin/7/25
2124/LUNION/1005/Ruby/7/24
2124/LUNION/1006/Emerald/7.5/23
2124/LUNION/1010/Zenopit/6.5/19
2124/LUNION/1102/RIVERLAND/7.5/27
2124/LUNION/1103/Clan/7.5/26
2124/LUNION/1106/JEWELL/8.5/23
2124/LUNION/1110/Zircon/7/19
2124/LUNION/1204/Mongo/8/24
2124/LUNION/1209/Utoland/6.5/19
2124/LUNION/1307/Lysen/7.5/21
2124/LUNION/1401/Foelen/7/26
2124/LUNION/1402/Farreach/6.5/25
2124/LUNION/1604/LOUZY/7.5/22
2124/LUNION/1705/EFATE/8.5/21
2124/LUNION/1706/Alell/8/20
2124/LUNION/1802/Yres/7.5/23
2124/LUNION/1803/MENORB/7.5/22
2124/LUNION/1805/Uakye/7.5/20
2124/LUNION/1807/Knorbes/6.5/18
2124/LUNION/1809/RUIE/7/16
2124/LUNION/1810/Jenghe/8/15
2124/LUNION/1904/Boughene/7.5/21
2124/LUNION/1909/Hefry/7/16
2124/LUNION/1910/Regina/8.5/15
2124/LUNION/2005/Feri/8.5/19
2124/LUNION/2007/ROUP/8/17
2124/LUNION/2110/Yori/8/14
2124/LUNION/2201/Dentus/7/23
2124/LUNION/2202/Kinorb/7.5/22
2124/LUNION/2205/ENOPE/8/19
2124/LUNION/2207/Wochiers/7/17
2124/LUNION/2303/Yorbund/7/22
2124/LUNION/2306/Shionthy/7.5/19
2124/LUNION/2308/ALGINE/7/17
2124/LUNION/2309/Yurst/7/16
2124/LUNION/2402/Heya/7/23
2124/LUNION/2405/Keng/6.5/20
2124/LUNION/2406/Moughas/7.5/19
2124/LUNION/2408/RETHE/7.5/17
2124/LUNION/2410/Inthe/7.5/15
2124/LUNION/2509/Paya/6.5/17
2124/LUNION/2510/Dhian/7.5/16
2124/LUNION/2602/Corfu/7/24
2124/LUNION/2607/Focaline/6.5/19
2124/LUNION/2701/Lablon/7.5/26
2124/LUNION/2708/Violante/7/19
2124/LUNION/2906/Carsten/6.5/22
2124/LUNION/3002/Yebab/7.5/26
2124/LUNION/3003/Nasemin/7/25
2124/LUNION/3004/Zykoca/6.5/24
2124/LUNION/3005/Aramanx/7.5/23
2124/LUNION/3008/Pysadi/7/20
2124/LUNION/3010/L'oeul d'Dieu/8/18
2124/LUNION/3102/Rugbird/7.5/27
2124/LUNION/3103/Towers/7/26
2124/LUNION/3110/Aramis/8/19
2124/LUNION/3202/JUNIDY/8.5/27
2124/LUNION/3207/Patinir/7.5/22
2124/LUNION/3210/Reacher/7/19
2124/LUNION/0111/Atson/6.5/23
2124/LUNION/0212/Prinx/6.5/21
2124/LUNION/0311/Mizan-fel/6.5/22
2124/LUNION/0414/Attica/6.5/18
2124/LUNION/0416/RETINAE/7/17
2124/LUNION/0613/Lebeau/7.5/18
2124/LUNION/0614/Querion/7.5/17
2124/LUNION/0717/Thanber/7.5/14
2124/LUNION/0720/ENTROPE/8/14
2124/LUNION/0820/Anselhome/6.5/13
2124/LUNION/0911/Caloran/6.5/19
2124/LUNION/0915/Quare/7.5/15
2124/LUNION/1011/Arden/7.5/18
2124/LUNION/1020/Margesi/7/11
2124/LUNION/1116/Frenzie/7.5/13
2124/LUNION/1118/Garda-Vilis/8.5/11
2124/LUNION/1119/VILIS/9/10
2124/LUNION/1212/Digitis/6.5/16
2124/LUNION/1216/Stellatio/6.5/12
2124/LUNION/1217/Arkadia/7/11
2124/LUNION/1311/Tremous Dex/7/17
2124/LUNION/1320/Saurus/7/8
2124/LUNION/1411/Rangent/6.5/16
2124/LUNION/1413/Denotam/8/14
2124/LUNION/1515/Calit/8/12
2124/LUNION/1519/Asgard/7/8
2124/LUNION/1611/Phlume/7.5/15
2124/LUNION/1711/Extolay/8/15
2124/LUNION/1719/Lanth/8.5/7

 

[Hal]

Part II

2124/LUNION/1811/Dinom/7.5/14
2124/LUNION/1815/Ghandi/7.5/10
2124/LUNION/1817/Victoria/7.5/8
2124/LUNION/1912/Dinomn/8/13
2124/LUNION/1916/Ylaven/7/9
2124/LUNION/1918/Sonthert/8/7
2124/LUNION/1920/D'Ganzio/8.5/5
2124/LUNION/2011/Wypoc/7/13
2124/LUNION/2112/Rech/7/12
2124/LUNION/2215/Quopist/8.5/9
2124/LUNION/2311/Treece/7.5/14
2124/LUNION/2313/Echiste/6.5/12
2124/LUNION/2317/Rhise/8/8
2124/LUNION/2319/Ivendo/8.5/6
2124/LUNION/2414/Tureded/7.5/11
2124/LUNION/2415/Vreibefger/6.5/10
2124/LUNION/2417/Equus/9/8
2124/LUNION/2418/Icetina/8/7
2124/LUNION/2419/Cogri/8.5/6
2124/LUNION/2420/Skull/9/5
2124/LUNION/2512/Kinorb/7/14
2124/LUNION/2519/Pannet/7.5/7
2124/LUNION/2520/Garrincski/8/6
2124/LUNION/2612/Macene/7.5/14
2124/LUNION/2620/NATOKO/9/6
2124/LUNION/2712/Risek/8/15
2124/LUNION/2715/POROZLO/9.5/12
2124/LUNION/2716/RHYLANOR/9.5/11
2124/LUNION/2811/Valhalla/6.5/16
2124/LUNION/2812/ZIVIJE/8.5/15
2124/LUNION/2814/Jae Tellona/7.5/13
2124/LUNION/2912/Henoz/8/16
2124/LUNION/2913/Celepina/7.5/15
2124/LUNION/2918/Gitosy/8/10
2124/LUNION/3015/Belizo/8/13
2124/LUNION/3016/Kegena/6.5/12
2124/LUNION/3017/Heroni/7/11
2124/LUNION/3019/457-973/7/9
2124/LUNION/3020/Somem/7/9
2124/LUNION/3111/Vinorian/8/18
2124/LUNION/3118/Cipatwe/7.5/11
2124/LUNION/3119/Vanejen/7.5/10
2124/LUNION/3212/Margesi/6.5/17
2124/LUNION/3216/BEVEY/8/13
2124/LUNION/3218/Tacaxeb/7/11
2124/LUNION/3220/Powaza/7/11
2124/LUNION/0130/Garoo/7.5/20
2124/LUNION/0223/Stern-Stern/7.5/19
2124/LUNION/0321/Nonym/7.5/18
2124/LUNION/0325/Laberv/6.5/18
2124/LUNION/0326/Ektron/7.5/18
2124/LUNION/0421/ZAMINE/8/17
2124/LUNION/0425/Engrange/7/17
2124/LUNION/0426/Ilium/8/17
2124/LUNION/0427/Roget/7.5/17
2124/LUNION/0430/Bularia/7/17
2124/LUNION/0526/Rorre/6.5/16
2124/LUNION/0527/MIRE/9/16
2124/LUNION/0622/Terant 340/7/15
2124/LUNION/0624/Jacent/8/15
2124/LUNION/0627/DARRIAN/9/15
2124/LUNION/0723/Trifuge/7/14
2124/LUNION/0724/Nosea/7.5/14
2124/LUNION/0921/Hrunting/7.5/12
2124/LUNION/0922/Tizon/8/12
2124/LUNION/0927/NARSIL/8.5/12
2124/LUNION/0930/Flammarion/8/12
2124/LUNION/1022/Colada/7.5/11
2124/LUNION/1026/Anduril/8/11
2124/LUNION/1121/Mjolnir/7.5/10
2124/LUNION/1123/Joyeuse/7.5/10
2124/LUNION/1126/Orcrist/7.5/10
2124/LUNION/1221/Gungnir/7.5/9
2124/LUNION/1223/GRAM/9/9
2124/LUNION/1225/Excalibur/8/9
2124/LUNION/1324/Tyrfing/8/8
2124/LUNION/1325/SACNOTH/9/8
2124/LUNION/1329/Caladbolg/8.5/9
2124/LUNION/1424/Beater/8/7
2124/LUNION/1430/Caliburn/7/10
2124/LUNION/1522/Dyrnwyn/8.5/6
2124/LUNION/1523/Durendal/8/6
2124/LUNION/1524/Hofud/8.5/6
2124/LUNION/1525/Sting/8/6
2124/LUNION/1526/Biter/8/6
2124/LUNION/1721/Arba/7/5
2124/LUNION/1727/Wardn/8/5
2124/LUNION/1729/Smoug/8.5/7
2124/LUNION/1822/Rabwhar/8.5/3
2124/LUNION/1824/Adabicci/9.5/3
2124/LUNION/1825/Zaibon/9/3
2124/LUNION/1826/Tenalphi/9.5/4
2124/LUNION/1924/Ianic/8/2
2124/LUNION/1927/Spirelle/9/4
2124/LUNION/2024/Derchon/9/1
2124/LUNION/2125/Shirene/9/1
2124/LUNION/2128/Penkwhar/6.5/4
2124/LUNION/2129/Harvosette/9/5
2124/LUNION/2224/Carse/8/1
2124/LUNION/2228/Persephone/9.5/5
2124/LUNION/2321/Quiru/7/4
2124/LUNION/2323/Resten/7.5/2
2124/LUNION/2324/Capon/9.5/2
2124/LUNION/2325/Sharrip/7/2
2124/LUNION/2327/STROUDEN/10/4
2124/LUNION/2425/Gandr/7.5/3
2124/LUNION/2426/Drolraw/6.5/4
2124/LUNION/2521/HERONI/9.5/5
2124/LUNION/2523/Byret/9/4
2124/LUNION/2527/Pimane/6.5/5
2124/LUNION/2621/Fosey/9.5/5
2124/LUNION/2624/Mercury/9/5
2124/LUNION/2627/Tivid/7.5/6
2124/LUNION/2726/Carey/6.5/6
2124/LUNION/2728/Duale/9/7
2124/LUNION/2824/Catuz/7.5/7
2124/LUNION/2828/Hexos/7.5/8
2124/LUNION/2924/Moran/7.5/8
2124/LUNION/2927/Maitz/7.5/8
2124/LUNION/2930/Mainz/6.5/10
2124/LUNION/3021/Brodie/6.5/9
2124/LUNION/3024/Jokotre/8.5/9
2124/LUNION/3025/FORNICE/10/9
2124/LUNION/3029/PALIQUE/9/10
2124/LUNION/3030/Nexine/7/11
2124/LUNION/3124/MORA/10/10
2124/LUNION/3228/Fenl's Gren/6.5/11
2124/LUNION/0133/Emape/7.5/20
2124/LUNION/0236/Andor/7.5/22
2124/LUNION/0332/Gothe/6.5/18
2124/LUNION/0333/Mirriam/8.5/18
2124/LUNION/0336/Candory/7/21
2124/LUNION/0433/Jone/8/18
2124/LUNION/0532/Ucella/7/16
2124/LUNION/0533/Penelope/7/17
2124/LUNION/0534/Karin/8.5/18
2124/LUNION/0538/Wonstar/7/22
2124/LUNION/0632/Gohature/7.5/16
2124/LUNION/0637/Quhaiathat/7.5/21
2124/LUNION/0732/Iderati/8.5/15
2124/LUNION/0931/Asteltine/7/13
2124/LUNION/1037/Avastan/7/19
2124/LUNION/1040/Kuai Qing/7/22
2124/LUNION/1131/Faldor/6.5/12
2124/LUNION/1133/Squallia/7.5/14
2124/LUNION/1138/Tarsus/7.5/19
2124/LUNION/1237/COLLACE/8.5/18
2124/LUNION/1238/Pavabid/7.5/19
2124/LUNION/1331/Datrillian/6.5/11
2124/LUNION/1339/Trexalon/8/19
2124/LUNION/1340/Motmos/7/20
2124/LUNION/1434/Tarkine/7/14
2124/LUNION/1435/Dallia/8/15
2124/LUNION/1436/Talos/6.5/16
2124/LUNION/1532/Elixabeth/6.5/11
2124/LUNION/1533/FORINE/8/12
2124/LUNION/1537/Mertactor/8/16
2124/LUNION/1631/Talchek/6.5/10
2124/LUNION/1634/Pagaton/7/13
2124/LUNION/1637/Mille Falcs/7.5/16
2124/LUNION/1731/Grote/8/9
2124/LUNION/1733/Lydia/6.5/11
2124/LUNION/1736/Melior/6.5/14
2124/LUNION/1737/Egypt/8/15
2124/LUNION/1739/Aster/7/17
2124/LUNION/1836/Callia/7/14
2124/LUNION/1932/Mithras/7.5/9
2124/LUNION/1934/Weiss/7.5/11
2124/LUNION/1935/Windsor/7.5/12
2124/LUNION/1937/Overnale/8/14
2124/LUNION/1938/New Rome/8.5/15
2124/LUNION/1939/Craw/7.5/16
2124/LUNION/2035/AKI/8.5/12
2124/LUNION/2036/GLISTEN/9.5/13
2124/LUNION/2038/Trane/7/15
2124/LUNION/2132/Centry/7/8
2124/LUNION/2134/Caledonia/7.5/10
2124/LUNION/2137/Sorel/6.5/13
2124/LUNION/2138/Horosho/8/14
2124/LUNION/2140/Romar/7/16
2124/LUNION/2231/Marastan/7.5/8
2124/LUNION/2232/CROUT/7.5/9
2124/LUNION/2233/TIREM/8.5/10
2124/LUNION/2234/Inthe/7.5/11
2124/LUNION/2236/Tsarina/7.5/13
2124/LUNION/2237/Wurzburg/6.5/14
2124/LUNION/2331/Bicornn/7/8
2124/LUNION/2334/Ffudn/8.5/11
2124/LUNION/2336/Bendor/8.5/13
2124/LUNION/2534/Burtson/7.5/12
2124/LUNION/2536/Squanine/8/14
2124/LUNION/2537/Dobham/7.5/15
2124/LUNION/2539/Thisbe/6.5/17
2124/LUNION/2540/Aramis/7.5/18
2124/LUNION/2637/Robin/7.5/16
2124/LUNION/2638/D'Mara/6.5/17
2124/LUNION/2639/Keltcher/7.5/18
2124/LUNION/2733/Edenelt/8.5/12
2124/LUNION/2735/Conway/7/14
2124/LUNION/2739/DODDS/8/18
2124/LUNION/2833/Pepernium/6.5/13
2124/LUNION/2834/Traltha/8/14
2124/LUNION/2839/Farquahar/7/19
2124/LUNION/2933/Raydrad/6.5/13
2124/LUNION/2934/Zyra/7/14
2124/LUNION/2935/Murchison/7/15
2124/LUNION/2936/Hammermium/8/16
2124/LUNION/3032/Katarulu/8/13
2124/LUNION/3035/Prilissa/7.5/16
2124/LUNION/3038/Tee-Tee-Tee/7.5/19
2124/LUNION/3039/Youghal/6.5/20
2124/LUNION/3040/Tenelphi/7/21
2124/LUNION/3138/Zephyr/7.5/19
2124/LUNION/3139/Chamois/7.5/20
2124/LUNION/3233/Ramiva/7.5/15
2124/LUNION/3235/TRIN/10/17
2124/LUNION/3236/Hazel/7/18

 

[tjoneslo]

Hello Folks,
What follows is a data dump giving people an idea of just how honking HUGE the trade set up is when using the rules from GURP TRAVELLER FAR TRADER.

I've got a similar data file for all 52,000 worlds in charted spaces. If anyone really wants the 230Mb text file with all the data, I'll send it along. But yes, there is an interesting amount of trade and connections in the Traveller Universe.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Very cool.

Thank you, Hal.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[RandyB]

IMO and IIRC, a key issue with the system in Far Trader is that there is no mechanism for calculating "this route is swamped by trade from closer worlds and thus peters out", which would go a long way toward making the trade routes make sense. As-is, there is measurable trade between worlds that plausibly wouldn't trade at all.

 

[tjoneslo]

IMO and IIRC, a key issue with the system in Far Trader is that there is no mechanism for calculating "this route is swamped by trade from closer worlds and thus peters out", which would go a long way toward making the trade routes make sense. As-is, there is measurable trade between worlds that plausibly wouldn't trade at all.

There are four steps of decreasing trade with distance. So if you start with a BTN over 17, even if the worlds are on the other side of the Imperium they still have some trade with one another. If you took that table and changes the distances to be additive rather than a log scale for distances to reduce trade it would go along way to fix this problem.

 

[aramis]

IMO and IIRC, a key issue with the system in Far Trader is that there is no mechanism for calculating "this route is swamped by trade from closer worlds and thus peters out", which would go a long way toward making the trade routes make sense. As-is, there is measurable trade between worlds that plausibly wouldn't trade at all.

IMO, the problem with GTFT is not the method, but the details...

The drop off for range isn't factoring in the different shipping capabilitites by TL (nor significantly enough by world).

And as was noted above, by RandyB, nearer suppliers killing trade isn't accounted for.

At TL 9, J6 is 12 weeks round trip comm time, and at least 14 weeks travel time round trip.

By comparison, US-UK-France-Belgium have had telegraph at several hours round trip to any major city; if the recipient is waiting, a return message means under a day round trip for the message. And crossing times for the atlantic to under a week by commercial steamer since the 1880's. So one could order and have goods at NY or Atlanta by the following week, and pretty much anywhere in the US within 3. Shipping times of 6-8 weeks being an allowed standard including 1-2 weeks post for the order.

 

[Hal]

While I agree in theory, that closer competitors will have an edge, part of the problem is this:

Best as I can figure, a 40' x 8' x 10' trailer (just giving ideas here) would be equal to 3200 cubic feet of volume, or roughly 6 dtons worth of freight/cargo. When dealing with abstracts, the law of comparative advantage isn't be accounted for in the sense that 6 dtons of freight from the longer distance world isn't the same as the 6 dtons of freight from the closer. One could contain nuts and bolts of varying sizes - the output of a week's work from a single factory, while another could be plastics manufactured goods, the output of a single day from another factory. We're not comparing apples to apples here. So - saying that a closer market should have dibs over the overall economic picture isn't in line with the law of comparative advantage.

Now, let's take another example - again, using GURPS TRAVELLER. Let's say we have four Rifles packed in a crate that measures 2' x 4.5' x 1.5'. It only contains four rifles valued at say, 830 credits each. Times four brings the value of the package to 3320. Volume works out to 3.675 cubic feet. That works out to roughly 136 units per dton of volume right? Let's make it simple and assume that we're only shipping 130 units of 4 rifles or roughly 520 rifles. Total value is 431,600 credits. Now, ship that for a total of 30 parsecs at say, 800 credits per parsec. Total cost works out to 800 x 30 or 24,000 credits to ship. Wait, did I say 30 parsecs? Let's make it 100 parsecs. At 100 parsecs at 800 credits per dton, we've just increased the cost of those rifles by another 80,000. Dividing that by the 520 rifles, the additional cost to the rifles is only 153 some odd credits per rifle.

Ok, maybe it wasn't rifles being shipped, it was nuts and bolts. Per "crate" cost is different than per dTon cost, etc.

Even if you match the value of the goods worth in shipping fees, the question comes down to whether or not you can even get the goods because no one nearby is manufacturing it, and if the locals found that they could make more money manufacturing that which is going for double its normal value after shipping from the long distance location - you still run into the situation where to produce more goods of something they weren't making before, something else ends up not being produced by the near by manufacturer because they only have so much in the way of labor, capital goods to produce more manufactured goods, and so much material that may or may not be in abundance at the nearer location.

So - do I have a problem with the long distance trade? Not particularly because we're not dealing with specifics - only generalities. I do however, note that when dealing with this kind of approach, that the author himself indicates that it was a SIMPLE two world gravity model, but that the reality would involve more worlds, more trade partners, etc. It was an abstraction that had been simplified (Ye gads, GURPS TRAVELLER FAR TRADER was simplified!!!!)

In any event, I have problems wrapping my mind around the level of trade that is being assumed in each instance where BTN is greater than 6.0 (Ie 6.5+). Dividing the dton tonnage by around 5 or 6 gives you a ballpark for how many tractor trailer's worth of contents involved. Then you compare that against real life just to see if it even makes sense. But for a world that is barely able to meet the 6.5 threshold, but having 30 or so HIGH industrial worlds within a given range, seems to produce more trade than the world has people. THAT to me seems wrong. But, I'm not an expert and I only have two semesters in economics in addition to my accounting background (plus programming as a major plus history and psychology and sociology classes). I know enough to be dangerous to myself alas.

 

[Hal]

I've got a similar data file for all 52,000 worlds in charted spaces. If anyone really wants the 230Mb text file with all the data, I'll send it along. But yes, there is an interesting amount of trade and connections in the Traveller Universe.

You should make that file available in the files section. What would be of even more value in my opinion, is an analysis of how many tons of ships are involved in handling ALL of the trade at any given time.

For instance? I was looking at "real distance" versus "Jump Distance" and found that the range varied by around 25% more than the real distance. In other words, sometimes you could find a star that was say 20 parsecs away, and be able to do it in 10 jumps with a Jump-2 ship, but (per my limited data set with Spinward Marches), it seemed to hover around 12 or so Jumps to actually get there due to the stars not making a perfect bee-line of stepping stones (so to speak). So a trade pair with 10 jumps between it, would require a total of 10 "sets" of starships to carry that trade - as compared/contrasted against a world pair that could be reached in one jump. Why? Because the ship's going from world A to world B in one week, will also require trade from World B to A in one week (Ie twice the ships required for the total tonnage). But those ships would be jumping back and forth every other week. The one that is 10 jumps away, will have a total of 9 ships in transit when the 10th set is on the planet.

My point is - getting a total number of hulls is useful for multiple reasons. Gives an idea of how much fuel has to be made available for the traffic, how much ore has to be mined to produce the starship hulls, and how many hulls are likely out there at any given time. If by definition, tramp freighter hulls are 800 dtons or less, it would be fun knowing how many (in theory) free trader hulls there are supposed to be out there at any given time.

Ah, gotta love this hobby - it's more entertaining than calculating how many Angels can dance on a pinhead (None, Angels can't dance).

 

[aramis]

While I agree in theory, that closer competitors will have an edge, part of the problem is this:

Best as I can figure, a 40' x 8' x 10' trailer (just giving ideas here) would be equal to 3200 cubic feet of volume, or roughly 6 dtons worth of freight/cargo.

Containers are available in common standard lengths of 20-ft (6.1 m), 40-ft (12.2 m), 45-ft (13.7 m), 48-ft (14.6 m), and 53-ft (16.2 m). United States domestic standard containers are generally 48-ft and 53-ft (rail and truck). Container capacity is measured in twenty-foot equivalent units (TEU, or sometimes teu). An equivalent unit is a measure of containerised cargo capacity equal to one standard 20 ft (length) × 8 ft (width) × 9 ft in (height) container. In metric units this is 6.10 m (length) × 2.44 m (width) × 2.59 m (height), or approximately 38.5 m³.
(interfreight.co.za, accessed 23 may 2016)​

1 TEU = 38.5 cubic meters, which is 2.75 Td (at 14 per Td).

 

[Hal]

Containers are available in common standard lengths of 20-ft (6.1 m), 40-ft (12.2 m), 45-ft (13.7 m), 48-ft (14.6 m), and 53-ft (16.2 m). United States domestic standard containers are generally 48-ft and 53-ft (rail and truck). Container capacity is measured in twenty-foot equivalent units (TEU, or sometimes teu). An equivalent unit is a measure of containerised cargo capacity equal to one standard 20 ft (length) × 8 ft (width) × 9 ft in (height) container. In metric units this is 6.10 m (length) × 2.44 m (width) × 2.59 m (height), or approximately 38.5 m³.
(interfreight.co.za, accessed 23 may 2016)​

1 TEU = 38.5 cubic meters, which is 2.75 Td (at 14 per Td).

using GURPS then, that TEU is equal to 2.88 dTons at 1 per 500 cubic feet. Close enough for government work. (Thanks for the TEU measurement - going to prove useful!)

 

[aramis]

using GURPS then, that TEU is equal to 2.88 dTons at 1 per 500 cubic feet. Close enough for government work. (Thanks for the TEU measurement - going to prove useful!)

Note that actual containers can also be 9'6" - such are called "High-cube" containers - another 40 CuFt per TEU. And that those volumes are outside measure; interior is usually 4" to 8" less overall.

 

[Hal]

Note that actual containers can also be 9'6" - such are called "High-cube" containers - another 40 CuFt per TEU. And that those volumes are outside measure; interior is usually 4" to 8" less overall.

The idea is to have some sort of handle on what all the trade in Traveller really "means" so to speak. At not quite 6 dTons per "trailer", an Empress Marava with its 49 dton cargo space (excluding the empty turret space) can hold about close to 8 tractor trailer type loads.

That sort of feels like looking at a picture and not being able to comprehend what the scale is, and then seeing that same picture with a man standing next to it.

As it stands now, I'm using Fantasy Grounds 2 with a player over the net trying to hammer out rules that I can use with GT.

For now, we're using something like this in our campaign:

Using GT:IW trade tables and speculative cargo rules, the player rolls against merchant skill with some minor penalties involved based on trade type of world plus one other addition:

If the ship has been at the world within 3 months prior, a cumulative -1 penalty is added (to discourage "liner like" activity). A jump between Lunion and Strouden can take as little as 24 days total (including the time it takes to engage in wilderness refueling at Sharrip's gas giant). So a jump back to Lunion from Strouden, will result (once at Lunion for the second time within 3 months) in a -1 penalty to all activity rolls. Should the player head back to Strouden again, he'd incure a -1 penalty at Strouden (second time within 3 months). Then he heads back to Lunion again. This time, his penalty is -2 (Second time within 6 months). If the captain decides that pickings are scarce, he might chose to head for Adibicci. Since it is his first time there, there is no penalty involved. But should he head back to Lunion again - it will be the third time in 9 months he's been there - and gets a -3 penalty. If he goes to Strouden this time, it has been over 3 months since his last visit, and he's back to a zero modifier for transactions on that world. He needs to pick some place other than Lunion to head to - or he needs to wait until 3 months has passed to drop his penalty back to zero.

That still doesn't help with the "Bidding on freight" issue however.

What I'm thinking of doing is having some sort of reversed process, where the player picks an actual "Value" for his freight services on a given bunch of Freight lots. Perhaps based on the following concept:

"Enemy" NPC captains are generally speaking, also bidding on the freight lots that the player character is bidding on (assuming that there are ships also in port and that the number of ships in port is sufficiently high to take up the slack on what the PC captain isn't bidding on). What an NPC captain will bid for the same lot that the player character is bidding on, will be equal to:

If 3d6 roll is less than 11 - 3d6/10% of the going freight rate.
If 3d6 roll is greater than 10, (3d6-1)/10% going freight rate.

If the going freight rate per parsec is 900 credits, then the player who says he wants 110% going freight rate for a given lot of freight, has to see if anyone undercuts him. At a high competition port, I might have a -1 bonus to the NPC captain rolls (for example). So he bids 110%, I roll 3d6 and get a 12. 12-1 becomes an 11. This in turn becomes (11-1)/10% or 100% going rate. An NPC captain underbid the player character's bid of 110% by bidding 100% going rate. The player character does NOT get that particular freight lot.

So, if the player character captain bids on 6 lots of freight, and only wins 4 of them, he has to decide whether he has enough to lift off with, or say another day and bid on more freight lots. Alternatively, he might bid on high risk lots (fragile or hazmat style freight lots) and take it from there. As GM, I could note that the player is taking food AND hazmat freight, and have him make an admin saving roll to note that transport regulations prohibit the transport of food and hazmat materials in the same lot, and that he has to clean his hold before he can again take food on his ship having once carried hazmat materials in his hold.

Problem is? Are the extra die rolls WORTH it? Therein lies the question.

 

[tjoneslo]

Problem is? Are the extra die rolls WORTH it? Therein lies the question.

This depends upon the focus of the game you are running. For a good comparison, contrast with the number of dice rolls for a single combat between the captain and his enemy.

The problem I've found with the multi-roll situations like this is they are focused on one person. See also Shadowrun's hacking rules, or any of several game's diplomacy rules. So while the Captain is having a time of getting the cargo, the rest of the players are sitting at the table twidding their thumbs and/or discussing the weather (It's raining on Mongo again).

I end up having to split my attention as GM for these kinds of things Captain is negotiating cargo, these two are chasing rumors in a bar, those two are finding extra spare parts and other interesting parts in the junk yard.

For Traveller I prefer this to having a bar fight.

 

[RandyB]

<snip good stuff about comparative advantage and two-party gravity model for the sake of brevity>

The two points I mention are excellent observations, I simply wanted to conserve space rather than fully quoting your work.

Comparative advantage was that thing nibbling at the back of my mind that I couldn't articulate. Distance shipped, IMO, is more of a factor in comparative advantage at the scale of LTU travel times, enough that the trade routes generated just don't make sense.

And the two-party nature of the gravity model of trade is why the trade routes fail the "sniff test". The model does not in any way attempt to address the multi-party environment of trade in the LTU. So, as thorough and otherwise interesting as it is, that necessary simplification is a fatal flaw in application.

 

[Hal]

The two points I mention are excellent observations, I simply wanted to conserve space rather than fully quoting your work.

Comparative advantage was that thing nibbling at the back of my mind that I couldn't articulate. Distance shipped, IMO, is more of a factor in comparative advantage at the scale of LTU travel times, enough that the trade routes generated just don't make sense.

And the two-party nature of the gravity model of trade is why the trade routes fail the "sniff test". The model does not in any way attempt to address the multi-party environment of trade in the LTU. So, as thorough and otherwise interesting as it is, that necessary simplification is a fatal flaw in application.

Question: in your mind - while fatally flawed in that the gravity model is only applied between two worlds, does the fact that the same model is applied between ALL of the worlds, means that what ever is missed by the two world model is caught by the "other" two world models?

It is kind of like when you use MS Paint using the option for the "spray" brush. One click doesn't fill the area in with color. Multiple clicks on the other hand, result in a more solid fill in color. Likewise, might not the two world gravity model between MULTIPLE worlds at the same time catch up the missing "slack"?

If not, then perhaps there should be a way to cut back on what is in the two model version for long distances along the lines of additional modifiers to the BTN value. For instance: World is within shorter distance of another WTN value X (Where X is some value that makes sense to you) - 1 WTN Value. Or maybe there should be another category that counts how many trade partners there are and give a diminishing return value once the BTN reaches a given value.

For instance: Once TBTN (New term that means Total BiTradeNumber) equals 5 x pop (just throwing numbers out for example), further BTN values are discounted in some fashion. So, five BTN partners at 10 would be worth 50 TBTN. A Pop A world can handle that level of Trade, but all other Trade partners now suffer a -1 or -2 or what ever makes sense to you, for their BTN's. This means that all of the fringe trade partners at 6.5 - drop off the radar. The world is just too busy filling the needs of other more important trade partners.

Just thinking outside the box... I don't know what the original author factored into his model nor do I know what effect my suggestions might have overall. It just seems to me, that at some point in time, ANY given world just can't meet the trade needs.

I remember a discussion about where the limits should be. If a world's GDP is at a given level, how can it engage in trade to its benefit if it doesn't somehow become a part of its GDP? GURPS SPACE mentions something sort of like this where the world's Trade volume is based upon a percentage of its GDP (I'd have to reread the rules to be sure exactly how it was meant to be implemented).

Well, time to bring this to a close for the moment.

 

[Hal]

This depends upon the focus of the game you are running. For a good comparison, contrast with the number of dice rolls for a single combat between the captain and his enemy.

The problem I've found with the multi-roll situations like this is they are focused on one person. See also Shadowrun's hacking rules, or any of several game's diplomacy rules. So while the Captain is having a time of getting the cargo, the rest of the players are sitting at the table twidding their thumbs and/or discussing the weather (It's raining on Mongo again).

I end up having to split my attention as GM for these kinds of things Captain is negotiating cargo, these two are chasing rumors in a bar, those two are finding extra spare parts and other interesting parts in the junk yard.

For Traveller I prefer this to having a bar fight.

For now, since I'm only running a one on one campaign over FANTASY GROUNDS 2, having the spotlight on one character isn't a major issue. The other fun part is - having the basic "rules" set up, means I can automate the process to some degree.

 

[tjoneslo]

Question: in your mind - while fatally flawed in that the gravity model is only applied between two worlds, does the fact that the same model is applied between ALL of the worlds, means that what ever is missed by the two world model is caught by the "other" two world models?

As you pointed out, the gravity trade model as presented in GT:FT has been drastically simplified. The SJG publication standard is (or was) "Works with pencil, paper, and three dice. Calculator optional". And doing this by hand comprehensively over anything large than a subsector is... strenuous.

...Perhaps there should be a way to cut back on what is in the two model version for long distances along the lines of additional modifiers to the BTN value. For instance: World is within shorter distance of another WTN value X (Where X is some value that makes sense to you) - 1 WTN Value. Or maybe there should be another category that counts how many trade partners there are and give a diminishing return value once the BTN reaches a given value.

In the simplified assumptions of the system rather than introducing another step into the process I would modify the distance table on page 15. Keeping in mind that each -1 to the BTN represents a 10x fall off in trade, instead of 10-19: -2, 20-29: -2.5: 30-59: -3, divide this into smaller bands for each step. For example:
10-14: -2, 15-19: -2.5, 20-24: -3, 25-29: -3.5, 30-39: -4, 40-49: -4.5, 50-59: -5.

This would force trade to be much more local. And it would cut down on the overall amount of trade. I'm quite sure you could statistically generate the exact ranges based upon your idea of how much the local trade should overwhelm the long distance trade.

 

[RandyB]

Question: in your mind - while fatally flawed in that the gravity model is only applied between two worlds, does the fact that the same model is applied between ALL of the worlds, means that what ever is missed by the two world model is caught by the "other" two world models?

My estimate is "no", because IMO the two-world model gives too much trade at too great of a distance. The best way I can imagine to handle it would be to drop routes once they decrease due to distance below a certain value if a larger route between closer worlds overlaps.

(I hope that makes sense.)

 

[robject]

In other words, beyond a certain threshold, the values approach noise or error.