Can a pistol not kill you in one shot?

[jchurchill]

Perhaps this way the SAS and other close quarter combat times use the "double tap" in real life. Two shots from anything above a 7.65mm [.32 for our non-metric friends] is going to slow a person down if not kill him.

 

[jchurchill]

Perhaps this way the SAS and other close quarter combat times use the "double tap" in real life. Two shots from anything above a 7.65mm [.32 for our non-metric friends] is going to slow a person down if not kill him.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
Just a point, Traveller is a game and with character generation like it is; getting killed with one shot from a pistol is going to take any enjoyment out of the game for the players. They will switch to something else.

If you really need to kill players, have them suck vaccuum for a couple of minutes. It fits the SF theme of Traveller and restricts mundane deaths.

The problem is that Traveller has a large number of rulesets, ranging from reasonably gritty (GURPS) to rather cinematic (T20). There are plenty of game mechanics around that can kill players with a single or couple of shots (DP9's Silhouette system springs to mind), and generally I find combat in such systems is better than combat with the ones where you have to fire a zillion shots/hack the victim to bits to whittle down the hitpoints to zero. You have to think about combat more carefully in the former cases, hiding behind cover, not taking stupid risks, etc and some people find that more enjoyable because it's more realistic.

YMMV though. But I don't think one should avoid 'mundane' or instant death in Traveller just because it's a sci-fi game. If anything, things will be getting much more lethal in the future. Taken to an extreme, you end up with DP9's Core Command setting, where the handguns people fire could level a building.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
Just a point, Traveller is a game and with character generation like it is; getting killed with one shot from a pistol is going to take any enjoyment out of the game for the players. They will switch to something else.

If you really need to kill players, have them suck vaccuum for a couple of minutes. It fits the SF theme of Traveller and restricts mundane deaths.

The problem is that Traveller has a large number of rulesets, ranging from reasonably gritty (GURPS) to rather cinematic (T20). There are plenty of game mechanics around that can kill players with a single or couple of shots (DP9's Silhouette system springs to mind), and generally I find combat in such systems is better than combat with the ones where you have to fire a zillion shots/hack the victim to bits to whittle down the hitpoints to zero. You have to think about combat more carefully in the former cases, hiding behind cover, not taking stupid risks, etc and some people find that more enjoyable because it's more realistic.

YMMV though. But I don't think one should avoid 'mundane' or instant death in Traveller just because it's a sci-fi game. If anything, things will be getting much more lethal in the future. Taken to an extreme, you end up with DP9's Core Command setting, where the handguns people fire could level a building.

 

[Ranger]

This is exactly the kind of situation that probably generated the MT rules for 1/2, 2x, 3x, and 4x damage effects based on how well you rolled against the to hit number. With those rules, you could definatly kill someone with a pistol in one shot.

 

[Ranger]

This is exactly the kind of situation that probably generated the MT rules for 1/2, 2x, 3x, and 4x damage effects based on how well you rolled against the to hit number. With those rules, you could definatly kill someone with a pistol in one shot.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
This is exactly the kind of situation that probably generated the MT rules for 1/2, 2x, 3x, and 4x damage effects based on how well you rolled against the to hit number. With those rules, you could definatly kill someone with a pistol in one shot.

Yes, but. I'm trying to use the MT rules, but I don't like the following:

1) as you don't resolve the damage dice until after the fight, you can end up with someone still fightin g when a stat went past zero or a case where someone is 'out' when no stats have taken much damage at all

2) the hit doesn't reduce your ability at the time

3) There isn't any 'blunt trauma' represented.

So I thought of using MT to determine 'dice assigned' and CT to determine damage, but that still means that killing someone (if that requires dropping all three to zero with no carryover) is tough.

If you integrated 'carry over extra damage', that'd probably go a long way towards fixing things.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
This is exactly the kind of situation that probably generated the MT rules for 1/2, 2x, 3x, and 4x damage effects based on how well you rolled against the to hit number. With those rules, you could definatly kill someone with a pistol in one shot.

Yes, but. I'm trying to use the MT rules, but I don't like the following:

1) as you don't resolve the damage dice until after the fight, you can end up with someone still fightin g when a stat went past zero or a case where someone is 'out' when no stats have taken much damage at all

2) the hit doesn't reduce your ability at the time

3) There isn't any 'blunt trauma' represented.

So I thought of using MT to determine 'dice assigned' and CT to determine damage, but that still means that killing someone (if that requires dropping all three to zero with no carryover) is tough.

If you integrated 'carry over extra damage', that'd probably go a long way towards fixing things.

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ranger:
This is exactly the kind of situation that probably generated the MT rules for 1/2, 2x, 3x, and 4x damage effects based on how well you rolled against the to hit number. With those rules, you could definatly kill someone with a pistol in one shot.

Yes, but. I'm trying to use the MT rules, but I don't like the following:

1) as you don't resolve the damage dice until after the fight, you can end up with someone still fightin g when a stat went past zero or a case where someone is 'out' when no stats have taken much damage at all

2) the hit doesn't reduce your ability at the time

3) There isn't any 'blunt trauma' represented.

So I thought of using MT to determine 'dice assigned' and CT to determine damage, but that still means that killing someone (if that requires dropping all three to zero with no carryover) is tough.

If you integrated 'carry over extra damage', that'd probably go a long way towards fixing things. </font>[/QUOTE]That's the same issue I have with MT combat, but like you said, you can just take the time to calculate the damage durring the combat (since MT damage points are simply CT dice of damage).

I think carry over is implied in the CT 'first wound' rule, even though it isn't explicitly writen that way. The last sentance of the paragraph says "As a reasult, first blood may immediatly incapacitate or even kill." You couldn't kill with one shot if you don't carry the damage over to the other stats.

The second issue is that actual instant killing is very rare in the 'real world'. Even direct head shots rarely kill instintaniously. They are usually fatal, but the victim often holds on for minutes or even hours before they actually expire. The key question is can they continue to fight after being hit, and in Traveller they can't if one of their stats is reduced to 0, which a pistol has a pretty good chance of doing in one shot.

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ranger:
This is exactly the kind of situation that probably generated the MT rules for 1/2, 2x, 3x, and 4x damage effects based on how well you rolled against the to hit number. With those rules, you could definatly kill someone with a pistol in one shot.

Yes, but. I'm trying to use the MT rules, but I don't like the following:

1) as you don't resolve the damage dice until after the fight, you can end up with someone still fightin g when a stat went past zero or a case where someone is 'out' when no stats have taken much damage at all

2) the hit doesn't reduce your ability at the time

3) There isn't any 'blunt trauma' represented.

So I thought of using MT to determine 'dice assigned' and CT to determine damage, but that still means that killing someone (if that requires dropping all three to zero with no carryover) is tough.

If you integrated 'carry over extra damage', that'd probably go a long way towards fixing things. </font>[/QUOTE]That's the same issue I have with MT combat, but like you said, you can just take the time to calculate the damage durring the combat (since MT damage points are simply CT dice of damage).

I think carry over is implied in the CT 'first wound' rule, even though it isn't explicitly writen that way. The last sentance of the paragraph says "As a reasult, first blood may immediatly incapacitate or even kill." You couldn't kill with one shot if you don't carry the damage over to the other stats.

The second issue is that actual instant killing is very rare in the 'real world'. Even direct head shots rarely kill instintaniously. They are usually fatal, but the victim often holds on for minutes or even hours before they actually expire. The key question is can they continue to fight after being hit, and in Traveller they can't if one of their stats is reduced to 0, which a pistol has a pretty good chance of doing in one shot.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
The second issue is that actual instant killing is very rare in the 'real world'. Even direct head shots rarely kill instintaniously. They are usually fatal, but the victim often holds on for minutes or even hours before they actually expire. The key question is can they continue to fight after being hit, and in Traveller they can't if one of their stats is reduced to 0, which a pistol has a pretty good chance of doing in one shot.

This is true in a lot of situations, but equally true are the cases of guys being hit in the *hand* and dying of shock. And there are plenty of people in conflicts the world over who have died from the first gunshot wound, and died on the spot. This is what I meant when I said actual combat has a very tough to model situation because of the vast variability of the human response to damage. In some cases, people keep going after all logic says they should be dead dead dead, and in other cases, they die (perhaps from shock or giving up) after the first seemingly trivial wound.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Ranger:
The second issue is that actual instant killing is very rare in the 'real world'. Even direct head shots rarely kill instintaniously. They are usually fatal, but the victim often holds on for minutes or even hours before they actually expire. The key question is can they continue to fight after being hit, and in Traveller they can't if one of their stats is reduced to 0, which a pistol has a pretty good chance of doing in one shot.

This is true in a lot of situations, but equally true are the cases of guys being hit in the *hand* and dying of shock. And there are plenty of people in conflicts the world over who have died from the first gunshot wound, and died on the spot. This is what I meant when I said actual combat has a very tough to model situation because of the vast variability of the human response to damage. In some cases, people keep going after all logic says they should be dead dead dead, and in other cases, they die (perhaps from shock or giving up) after the first seemingly trivial wound.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
This is true in a lot of situations, but equally true are the cases of guys being hit in the *hand* and dying of shock.

Can you give cites? There's nothing vital in the hand to induce a reaction like that.

And there are plenty of people in conflicts the world over who have died from the first gunshot wound, and died on the spot.

Note that 'died on the spot' generally means 'dead within a minute'. Other than a direct brain shot, it's pretty much impossible to kill in less than 3-5 seconds (hard limit based on the physics of blood flow).

Of course, a lot of this is an issue of gameplay. A realistic system, in which (a) it's fairly easy to take a fatal wound, and (b) people who've taken fatal wounds may well continue fighting for the next ten minutes, pretty much works out as the worse possible combination for PC survival.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
This is true in a lot of situations, but equally true are the cases of guys being hit in the *hand* and dying of shock.

Can you give cites? There's nothing vital in the hand to induce a reaction like that.

And there are plenty of people in conflicts the world over who have died from the first gunshot wound, and died on the spot.

Note that 'died on the spot' generally means 'dead within a minute'. Other than a direct brain shot, it's pretty much impossible to kill in less than 3-5 seconds (hard limit based on the physics of blood flow).

Of course, a lot of this is an issue of gameplay. A realistic system, in which (a) it's fairly easy to take a fatal wound, and (b) people who've taken fatal wounds may well continue fighting for the next ten minutes, pretty much works out as the worse possible combination for PC survival.

 

[Kensai]

There are all sorts of nasty things that can happen when a supersonic lump of steel enters one's anatomy; given the wide variation in tissue densities, bullet ballistics, etc. it's extremely difficult to predict just what will happen - much more so than with a cutting weapon or blunt trauma.

However it is true that even a fairly light wound (as trauma specialists would see it) is quite likely to render one hors de combat. For example, a bullet through the Achilles tendon would be non-life-threatening but also render the victim unable to move beyond a crawl - which would amount to an M (mobility) kill with regards to a vehicle.

It's a farily well documented phenomenon (sorry no references cause my notes aren't with me) that even a minor wound can trigger cardiac arrest and cause death that way... bummer of a way to go though, and it's not actually very common.

In terms of game systems I'd have to go with something that reflects the effects of wounds on combat performance, such as SILHOUETTE or even R. Talsorian's Friday Night Firefight. I hate T20's system - even though it's not as ridiculous as D20's unkillable-in-less-than-three-hour characters, you get blokes running around at peak ability with half their torsos ripped off... completely senseless....

 

[Kensai]

There are all sorts of nasty things that can happen when a supersonic lump of steel enters one's anatomy; given the wide variation in tissue densities, bullet ballistics, etc. it's extremely difficult to predict just what will happen - much more so than with a cutting weapon or blunt trauma.

However it is true that even a fairly light wound (as trauma specialists would see it) is quite likely to render one hors de combat. For example, a bullet through the Achilles tendon would be non-life-threatening but also render the victim unable to move beyond a crawl - which would amount to an M (mobility) kill with regards to a vehicle.

It's a farily well documented phenomenon (sorry no references cause my notes aren't with me) that even a minor wound can trigger cardiac arrest and cause death that way... bummer of a way to go though, and it's not actually very common.

In terms of game systems I'd have to go with something that reflects the effects of wounds on combat performance, such as SILHOUETTE or even R. Talsorian's Friday Night Firefight. I hate T20's system - even though it's not as ridiculous as D20's unkillable-in-less-than-three-hour characters, you get blokes running around at peak ability with half their torsos ripped off... completely senseless....

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Kensai:
It's a farily well documented phenomenon (sorry no references cause my notes aren't with me) that even a minor wound can trigger cardiac arrest and cause death that way... bummer of a way to go though, and it's not actually very common.

You referring to Commotio Cordis -- cardiac arrest caused by a low-force blunt impact to the chest right above the heart? Usually associated with sports. Not sure what other minor injuries can cause immediate heart failure.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Kensai:
It's a farily well documented phenomenon (sorry no references cause my notes aren't with me) that even a minor wound can trigger cardiac arrest and cause death that way... bummer of a way to go though, and it's not actually very common.

You referring to Commotio Cordis -- cardiac arrest caused by a low-force blunt impact to the chest right above the heart? Usually associated with sports. Not sure what other minor injuries can cause immediate heart failure.

 

[Ranger]

I went back and re-read the MT combat rules (since I hadn't read them in about a year), and they are even nastier than I remembered. It's 2x, 4x, and 8x damage for exceeding the too hit by 2, 4, and 8 respectivly. On top of that, a pistol has a to hit number of 3 at close range (less than 1 meter). So, on average, you can expect to cause 4x damage with a pistol shot at close range (roll 7 or better). That's 8D of damage or a mean of 28 (8 x 3.5) points of damage for one pistol shot if you're using the CT damage system. No matter how you apply that much damage, an average charactor is going to die from an average pistol shot at close range (of course, if you roll all the damage against only one or two stats while applying the 8D, the charactor could still survive, but on average, that is not going to happen). If you use the first hit with carryover, you're definatly going to kill any average charactor.

Now, if you then take a look at the assessing and treating damage rules, wounds that go untreated cause from 1D to 4D addisional damage if they are not treated over time. You can also save a dieing charactor if you apply treatment within 1D minutes (I assume this means CPR to maintain vitals).

I guess it really comes down to how much detail you want. Traveller in CT and MT was always on the more abstract side. With no 'hit location' chart, the damage on the low and high ends were meant to include everything from a flesh wound to a head shot, with average damage being the same as a body shot.

If you want a hit location chart, there is one in Traveller's Digest 13, but it isn't designed to be used in combat (there is no modification for damage due to location). It's just meant to tell you where you were hit after all the action is done.

 

[Ranger]

I went back and re-read the MT combat rules (since I hadn't read them in about a year), and they are even nastier than I remembered. It's 2x, 4x, and 8x damage for exceeding the too hit by 2, 4, and 8 respectivly. On top of that, a pistol has a to hit number of 3 at close range (less than 1 meter). So, on average, you can expect to cause 4x damage with a pistol shot at close range (roll 7 or better). That's 8D of damage or a mean of 28 (8 x 3.5) points of damage for one pistol shot if you're using the CT damage system. No matter how you apply that much damage, an average charactor is going to die from an average pistol shot at close range (of course, if you roll all the damage against only one or two stats while applying the 8D, the charactor could still survive, but on average, that is not going to happen). If you use the first hit with carryover, you're definatly going to kill any average charactor.

Now, if you then take a look at the assessing and treating damage rules, wounds that go untreated cause from 1D to 4D addisional damage if they are not treated over time. You can also save a dieing charactor if you apply treatment within 1D minutes (I assume this means CPR to maintain vitals).

I guess it really comes down to how much detail you want. Traveller in CT and MT was always on the more abstract side. With no 'hit location' chart, the damage on the low and high ends were meant to include everything from a flesh wound to a head shot, with average damage being the same as a body shot.

If you want a hit location chart, there is one in Traveller's Digest 13, but it isn't designed to be used in combat (there is no modification for damage due to location). It's just meant to tell you where you were hit after all the action is done.