Canon vs. Fanon & The Wiki...

[aramis]

I understand that this is a canon discussion. You seem to be saying that you cannot have a Traveller canon without including the MegaTraveller books. I am saying that if you are using Classic LBB Traveller, you should use the books that were written for that rule set. The MegaTraveller books were written for the rule set featuring the Rebellion and disintegration of the 3rd Imperium. They are not necessarily canon for the Classic rule set.



As I said, I have them, somewhere in my basement in hard copy. I do not plan to pay for them in digital format. I assume that makes me a heretic in your view. I do have a thread covering my heretical view of an alternate OTU.

You're misunderstanding the purpose of canon.
It's not about the home user - your campaign can used whatever sources you wish...

It's about "what is the OTU?"

You're having the same issue with the lack of canon for CT prior to feedback on Sup 3.

After Sup 3, all the materials were intended for use in the same universe and milieux. Prior, the setting information was exemplar, not definition.

Fundamentally, Canon requires Intent of the Canon's authority. (not of the original authors, but of the canon defining authority.)

Marc is cagey about defining what is and isn't canon in the public space.

For example, we don't know what the biblical authors would have chosen as canonical, but we know what various churches do - the intent is in the authority (in the case of the bible, the various churches), not in the author.

Likewise, in the Canon of Traveller, it doesn't matter whether the individual authors thought they were writing canon or variant; it only matters what Marc thinks.

 

[BRJN]

Rob's Summary of the FB discussion

Thank you for posting the summary.

It may help (or may not) to think about Canon as if preparing to write an in-OTU history text: "what happened".
Traveller right now has many unreliable narrators and 'layers of an onion' plots unfolding. A more definitive voice is needed.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Rob's Summary of the FB discussion
Beyond that, you're going to have to go digging. TravellerMap helps.

Rob,

I love Trav-Map, but it is also an unreliable witness.

Shalom,
M.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Not much use to people who don't do facebook - how about a summary?

Mike,

There's too much too summarize there. Better read.

The existing summary is pretty inadequate.

Shalom,
M.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

As an example, here are the library data from MegaTraveller IE, RC, and Fighting Ships (and the material they replace is in parens):


Amber Zone. IE.
Ancients. IE. (AD02 p41. AD03. AD12. M01.)
Anglic. IE.
Antares. IE.
Ansing Expedition. IE.
Antebellum. IE.
Antiquity. IE.
Barracks Emperors. IE.
Battle Rider, Battleship, Battle Tender. FSOTSI.
Behind the Claw. IE.
Belt Mining. IE.
Belter. IE.
Bilstein Yards. IE.
Boat. IE.
Capital. IE.
Chirper (sophont). IE (AD02 p5 (profile).)
Church of the Chosen Ones. IE.
Ciencia Iphegienia. IE.
Civil War. IE.
Client State. IE.
Confederation. IE.
Coyns. IE p21, 49. (AD03.)
Crisis of '99. IE.
Cruiser. FSOTSI.
Currency, Imperial. IE.
Darmine. IE.
Darrian Confederation. IE.
Deneb. IE.
Digest Touring Award. IE.
Directions, Galactic. IE.
Domain. IE.
Emperors of the Flag. IE.
The Emperor's List. IE.
Empire. IE.
Express Boat (100t ship). IE. (AD02 p42. AD03.) T5 Deckplans 1.
False War. IE.
Federation. IE.
The First Frontier War. IE.
The First Imperium. IE.
The First Interstellar War. IE.
The Fourth Frontier War. IE.
Galanglic. IE.
Gas Giant. IE.
General Shipyards. IE.
Glea. IE.
Good War/Bad War. IE (AD07.)
Grand Prince. IE.
Great Rift. IE.
Guaran. IE.
History of the Spinward Marches. IE.
Hiver, Hive Federation. IE.
Holiday Year. IE.
Humaniti, Humans. IE.
Imperial Calendar. RC.
Imperial Edict 97. IE.
The Imperial Nobility. IE.
Imperial Research. IE.
Imperial Rules of War. IE.
Imperial Stationery. IE.
Imperial Sunburst. IE.
Imperial Warrant. IE.
Interdiction. IE.
Iolanthe. IE.
Iridium Throne. IE.
Jump Dimming. IE.
Jumpspace. IE.
Kedzugh, Commonality of. IE.
Kirur, K'Kree. IE.
Kusyu. IE [sic]
Lair. IE.
Lancia. IE.
Lanthanum. IE.
Lesser Rift. IE.
Llellewyloly. IE.
Loeskalth. IE.
Main. IE.
Major Race. IE.
Megacorporations. RC.
Mercenary. IE.
Minor Race. IE.
Moot. IE.
Monadium. IE.
Naval Base. IE. (S09)
Naval Depot. IE. (S09)
Nobility. IE.
Nth Interstellar War. IE.
Octagon Society. IE (AD03.)
Oort Cloud. IE.
Outworld Coalition. IE.
Pacification Campaigns. IE.
Phoenix Project. IE.
Postal Union. IE.
Psionic games, psionics, psionics institute, psionics suppressions. IE.
Psychohistory. IE.
Rachele Society, Rachelean Revolts. IE.
Ramshackle Empire. IE.
Red Zone. IE.
Repatriation Bond. IE.
Robots in the Imperium. RC (AD02 p31+.)
The Research Project. RC.
Rule of Man. IE.
Rule of Terra. IE.
Scout Base. IE.
Second Frontier War. IE.
Second Imperium. IE.
Sector. IE.
Shudusham Concords. IE.
Signal GK (definition). IE (AD13.)
Six Races. IE.
Soegz. IE.
Solomani (humans). IE (AD12. DA03a.)
Solomani autonomous region, confederation, history, hypothesis, movement, rim war, security, sphere. IE.
Sophont (definition). IE (AD12. AD13.)
Sophontology. IE.
Spinward Main. IE.
Spinward Marches. IE.
Strephon. IE.
Subsector. IE.
Superheavy Elements. IE.
Survey, First. IE.
Survey, Second. IE.
SuSAG (corporation). RC (AD09.)
Sword Worlds (humans). IE (AD07. SMC.)
Sylean Federation. IE.
System Defense Boat. IE.
Terra, Terran Confederation. IE.
Third Frontier War. IE.
Third Imperium. IE.
Thoengling Empire. IE.
Trade Routes. IE.
Travel Zone. IE.
Trojan Points. IE.
Tukera Lines (corporation). RC (AD03. AD13.)
Twilight. IE.
Twilight's Peak. IE.
Two Thousand Worlds. IE.
Vargr campaigns, Vargr extents. IE.
Vegan, Vegan autonomous district. IE.
Vilani (humans). IE (AD12. AD13.)
Vland. IE.
War. IE.
Way Station. IE.
Xboat (100t ship). IE (See Express Boat.)
Xboat Station. IE.
Year Zero. IE.
Zhdant. IE.


Here's what the Spinward Marches Campaign adds:

154th Battle Rider Squadron. SMC.
4518th Lift Infantry Regiment. SMC.
Al Morai. SMC.
The Federation of Arden. SMC.
The Fifth Frontier War. SMC, IE.
The Frontier Wars. SMC.
Nolikian (20kt battle rider). SMC.
Sloan (5kt fleet escort). SMC.


And here are the most useful Golden Era entries that MegaTraveller IE and RC omit:

Arkesh Spacers
Artifacts and Ancient Sites
The Baraccai Technum
Bilstein Yards
The Forboldn Project. TTB.
The Gaesh
Ganulf, Manoeuvre of (Fourth Frontier War)
Imperial Fleet
Imperial Navy
Imperial Squadron
InStarSpec
Jamison Factors
MagnetoDynamics
McClellan Factors
Oberlindes Lines
Sinzarmes
Tyrfing Incident
UTP (fledgling line)
Xmail


And here are entries that T5 has added, overridden or expanded on:

Antimatter Battery (artifact)
Black Globe, White Globe etc
Collector
The Frozen Watch
Grav Platforms (artifact)
Kinunir
Patrol Corvette
Scout/Courier
Mindwipe
Personality Overlay
Planetary Core Tap (artifact)
Pocket Universe (artifact)
Portal (artifact)
Shimmersuit (artifact)
Starport
Travellers' Aid Society

Rob,

The only easy place to find all of that data and more is here: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Encyclopedia#External_Link.2Fs

You also missed a number of the entries in your list.

It goes into detail.

Shalom,
M.

 

[Frewfrux]

I don't understand the debate around Cannon. Sure Cannon exists to promote consistency in published materials, but it's primary purpose for GM's / players should be to foster creativity when needed. Therefore, if you read something you don't like/want, don't use it.

No one plays in the OTU (what?!?!) because no one's character is Cannon. All games are, by necessity, non-canonical, and the purpose of any rule-set is to play the game, not to debate Cannon.

Unless you're writing for publication, do what you want.

In terms of the Wiki's eventual bifurcation (the original question) I would think that it should depend on what the purpose of the wiki is. Is the wiki there to promote and define Cannon, or there as a suppository for ideas from a variety of sources?

If you're wanting to promote Cannon you may also want to limit user's abilities to make changes.

If you're wanting to have it be a place where people can deposit ideas for other to use (maybe even considering them for future Cannon), why not just create a [Cannon] tag for pages that are non-editable by the general public and accepted by Marc as Cannon?

 

[mike wightman]

Mike,

There's too much too summarize there. Better read.

The existing summary is pretty inadequate.

Shalom,
M.

I don't, will not, and couldn't be paid to, have a facebook account.

If facebook discussions rather than this forum are the future of Traveller then I can not contribute.

 

[Frewfrux]

Mike, I like your signature...

The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

To play devil's advocate, however, I would say that if all you have is CT LBB 1-3, then you are NOT free to make the decisions yourself, you are required to; you don't have a choice.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Hi Frewfrux,

I don't understand the debate around Cannon. Sure Cannon exists to promote consistency in published materials, but it's primary purpose for GM's / players should be to foster creativity when needed. Therefore, if you read something you don't like/want, don't use it.

Canon is a schema for determining officialdom.

Cannons fire cannon balls or other forms of munitions.

You make fine points.

No one plays in the OTU (what?!?!) because no one's character is Cannon. All games are, by necessity, non-canonical, and the purpose of any rule-set is to play the game, not to debate Cannon.

Almost all of us base our ATU or IMTU on the OTU. Real world building is impossibly complex for the average referee or gamemaster.

Almost every referee ever uses the toolsets and basic assumptions of the OTU to undergird their universe and form a foundation.

Unless you're writing for publication, do what you want.

Right on.

In terms of the Wiki's eventual bifurcation (the original question) I would think that it should depend on what the purpose of the wiki is. Is the wiki there to promote and define Cannon, or there as a suppository for ideas from a variety of sources?

MWM and FFE has cited that the wiki is a resource to support fans. It was a self-limiting fan that wanted to bifurcate the wiki, but was unwilling to actually put in the work to do it. That person mostly wanted to complain and tell others how to do it. I heard that directly from that person when I pressed them.

So, in that sense, the wiki had to walk a tight rope in-between promoting the OTU (...the T5 OTU), supporting sister publications, and creating a repository (...watch out for suppositories... I was a military medic and know exactly what those are) for ideas from a variety of sources.

In other words, just like real life, we often don't get to pick the ideal ...and live in the intersection between a rock and a hard place. Could be worse.

If you're wanting to promote Cannon you may also want to limit user's abilities to make changes.

Perhaps, but Traveller is creative chaos on another level. And everyone is welcome to the show. Traveller is inclusive.

If you're wanting to have it be a place where people can deposit ideas for other to use (maybe even considering them for future Cannon), why not just create a [Cannon] tag for pages that are non-editable by the general public and accepted by Marc as Cannon?

Good idea. Thanks! The wiki does have the ability to lock articles, but so far it hasn't been a problem.

Thank you for sharing your opinions. They are greatly appreciated.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Mike,

First of all, I love your work. Period.

Second of all, I don't care for FB either, but... I go where the fans go. That is the task that Marc Miller has assigned to me and the wiki team. We promote fans everywhere, where they congregate, and we don't exclude anyone except those too asocial to work and play well with others.

That means going where the fans go. I completely understand your dislike of that platform, but it's not practical to exclude large bodies of fans based on their choice of communications platform. Most bang for the buck. Basic utilitarianism.

As an aside, I count over twenty major places of congregation for Traveller fans. I try to frequent the top five where I can best promote Traveller and keep putting new life into our venerated and much beloved hobby. I have a feeling that you might understand.

I don't, will not, and couldn't be paid to, have a facebook account.

No one is asking you too. Please choose your own choice of playground and enjoy it. In my case, I'm just happy to see you, wherever you might be.

If facebook discussions rather than this forum are the future of Traveller then I can not contribute.

No worries. I haven't seen you participate at many of the most frequented Traveller forums and that's ok. I'm just happy to see you here. But, sometimes some pretty neat ideas happen elsewhere. I try to cross link some of the neater discussions while performing all of my other Traveller jobs.

Thanks for all of your neat contributions to Traveller. I highly value them. I hope that you will eventually grant me permission to share more of your ideas at the wiki. I love your art and your ideas. I think that eventually some of your brilliant ideas and contributions will become canon for the OTU.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak,
Master Traveller chronicler and wiki guy.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Aramis,

Thank you so much for your valuable insights.

After Sup 3, all the materials were intended for use in the same universe and milieux. Prior, the setting information was exemplar, not definition.

Fundamentally, Canon requires Intent of the Canon's authority. (not of the original authors, but of the canon defining authority.)

Right.

Marc is cagey about defining what is and isn't canon in the public space.

And he's perfectly right to be that way. However, there is some use in further figuring out what Trav Canon should be according to MWM.

For example, we don't know what the biblical authors would have chosen as canonical, but we know what various churches do - the intent is in the authority (in the case of the bible, the various churches), not in the author.

Likewise, in the Canon of Traveller, it doesn't matter whether the individual authors thought they were writing canon or variant; it only matters what Marc thinks.

Right.

Shalom,
M.

 

[robject]

You also missed a number of the entries in your list.

On purpose. As I said, the Burrito Principle applies.

As a counter-example, I note that previous attempts fail. That's because they don't draw a line.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

On purpose. As I said, the Burrito Principle applies.

As a counter-example, I note that previous attempts fail. That's because they don't draw a line.

*** Where is your line drawn? ****

You should definitely chat with me today. Not that I don't appreciate your drive-by comment or the application of the Pareto Principle that has become your burrito.

Shalom,
M.

 

[tjoneslo]

There are two sides to this conversation here. The first is Rob's Canon list and what is or is not to be included in that list. The second is, somewhat ignored, is the wiki the correct place to collect and present the canon list.

The wiki, by design, includes everything. This is its strength. But, as the discussion in this thread shows, its too big. There is too much information. And it's not just Rob's list, or Whipsnade's sniping. I had several discussions with Hans Ranke and others about these same topics. And there are at least two other project's I'm aware of that are a refection of the size of the wiki.

The lesson I take from this is the wiki needs a guide.

If you know what you are looking for, the wiki is a great resource. If you have an idea of what kinds of things you are researching, the wiki works well. If you are just looking to find something, well, the wiki requires you know what you are looking for and are willing to take the time and make the effort read through many articles to find the cool bits.

The assumption in the projects and suggestions follows that of most published books. There is an author or editor who selects the articles that are relevant to the topic at hand. This could be the Canon articles (as shown by Rob), or the Spinward Marches, or the Galaxiad era. Something to filter the massive whole that is the Traveller Wiki.

Every time I see one of these comments or suggestions or projects I dig through the MediaWiki extensions, look at a number of other wikis, and read the suggestion(s) again. I now have about a dozen technical solutions to the idea of a guide. The problem is a) I don't like any of them, and b) I'm not sure they address the underlying need.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Thomas,

Always appreciate you thoughts on the matters. Thank you for sharing them.

There are two sides to this conversation here. The first is Rob's Canon list and what is or is not to be included in that list. The second is, somewhat ignored, is the wiki the correct place to collect and present the canon list.

Rob's list is Rob's list. It is also an unreliable witness.

The wiki, by design, includes everything. This is its strength. But, as the discussion in this thread shows, its too big. There is too much information. And it's not just Rob's list, or Whipsnade's sniping.

It is too big in one way, in that it is bigger than one person can really know. On the other hand with over 400 publications and 40 years of production, it isn't big enough. I'm glad that the community is puzzling out how to improve it.

Whatever happens though, it can't be all things to all people. It's limited and finite. There are few fans who want more than it can provide, especially with the very limited supply of volunteers and the very early stages of development.

I had several discussions with Hans Ranke and others about these same topics. And there are at least two other project's I'm aware of that are a refection of the size of the wiki.

Me too.

*** What are the other projects that you are thinking of? ***

The lesson I take from this is the wiki needs a guide.

It does. Towards that end, Charted Space Overview and Traveller Setting Overview pages were built out that map out the OTU. A massive project of cateogries makes it easy to find all categorized articles for a particular interest such as Galaxiad articles or others. Those are now among the most used and requested of pages.

Those "Big Picture" guide pages are available off the landing or home page for the wiki here:
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Main_Page

They work. Advanced Collective pages also provide referral trees, which provide links to other subjects of interest related to a particular AAB data page. Ship pages have referral links to other ships pages, sophont pages to sophont types, and the like. It's all pragmatic and functional.

If you know what you are looking for, the wiki is a great resource. If you have an idea of what kinds of things you are researching, the wiki works well. If you are just looking to find something, well, the wiki requires you know what you are looking for and are willing to take the time and make the effort read through many articles to find the cool bits.

I scan the most used forums and provide links and answers. That has slowly been educating the community what is out there and how to use it.

That also draws in new volunteers and experts, expanding the scope of what is wanted and what can be done.

The assumption in the projects and suggestions follows that of most published books. There is an author or editor who selects the articles that are relevant to the topic at hand. This could be the Canon articles (as shown by Rob), or the Spinward Marches, or the Galaxiad era. Something to filter the massive whole that is the Traveller Wiki.

MWM is mostly hands off regarding canon.

He looks at it differently than Rob or others concerned with canon matters. Don's view on it jibed more with MWM than Rob.

I am personally indifferent, as long as MWM is happy with it, I will leave it alone unless someone comes up with something new that might work... In that case, I bring it to the attention of MWM and he can decide what he will decide.

Until then, there is a system in place until we have something better.

I think that Rob and others do is important so that something better can eventually be found. We all owe Rob a debt of gratitude for being willing to explore the matter.

Every time I see one of these comments or suggestions or projects I dig through the MediaWiki extensions, look at a number of other wikis, and read the suggestion(s) again. I now have about a dozen technical solutions to the idea of a guide. The problem is a) I don't like any of them, and b) I'm not sure they address the underlying need.

I have as well. On the technical side of the house, there are possibilities.

However, on the reasoning / philosophical side of the house, we still don't have a compelling why. And implementing a technical solution without a good causal rationale doesn't seem wise.

The current system works and has been peer reviewed. It has also been reviewed by MWM without rejection.

I'm looking forward to a better system arising when it happens. But, no one has yet figured out what that might be or how it might look. Bifurcating the wiki isn't practical. Having namespaces, category tags, and other markers on each and every article is not only possible, but is already in place.

Shabbat Shalom,
M.

 

[Timerover51]

Originally Posted by tjoneslo
If you know what you are looking for, the wiki is a great resource. If you have an idea of what kinds of things you are researching, the wiki works well. If you are just looking to find something, well, the wiki requires you know what you are looking for and are willing to take the time and make the effort read through many articles to find the cool bits.

I am not sure that I would agree with this. I was looking at the page on Wochiers (world)/data, http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Wochiers_(world)/data.

Under Milieu 1116, it gives the following data. (What is Milieu 1116, is that pre-Rebellion, start of Rebellion, post-Rebellion, or what?)

The UWP is EAC28CC-9, identical to the 1979 Edition of the Spinward Marches Supplement. When you put the curser over that, a pop-up appears giving the population as 700 Million. So the planet has a Class E star port (no facilities), size is A (10,000 miles), atmosphere is C (insidious), the hydrographics is 2 (definitely NOT water), with a population of 700 Million, a government of C (Charismatic Oligarchy), and a Law Level of C (extreme). The Tech Level is 9.

The Cultural Details are listed at B78C, which means what? It looks like there might be an army of 150 on the planet, for a population of 700 million?

The real kicker is in the Economic and Star Port details. For a population of 700 million, the GWP is 2,049 Million Credits, or less than 3 Credits per person. The trade volume is 177 Million Credits, or about a quarter-credit per person. The Class E star port does have the capacity to build 840,000 tons of ships per year, with only 15 employees. When did Class E star ports, with no facilities beyond a beacon showing where to land, begin to be building ships? The employees have to be incredibly productive to turn out 56,000 tons of ship per year each.

The New Era data is just as bad, except the Tech Level is now A, and the population is now 800 million. The GWP has gone down and is now slightly over 2 Credits per person, with the Trade Volume has go up to 448 Million Credits per year, or 0.56 Credits per person per year. The Class E star port is still building ships, and has 25,510 employees to maintain the radio beacon showing the landing spot.

Although this example might be a bit extreme, I can only wonder how many more like it are in the Wiki. Note, there is no indication who put the page on Wochiers together.

Essentially, the Wiki data is only as good as the person posting it makes it. As Marc decides what is canon and what is not, and does change things, Traveller canon is not fixed at all. The best that can be said of an item is that on this specific day, the item was canon, tomorrow that could change.

 

[tjoneslo]

I am not sure that I would agree with this. I was looking at the page on Wochiers (world)/data, http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Wochiers_(world)/data.

You did manage to find one of not for human consumption pages in the wiki. All of this data is on the main article in the box information in the left side of the page with better explanations.

Under Milieu 1116, it gives the following data. (What is Milieu 1116, is that pre-Rebellion, start of Rebellion, post-Rebellion, or what?)

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Milieu_1116

The UWP is EAC28CC-9, identical to the 1979 Edition of the Spinward Marches Supplement. When you put the curser over that, a pop-up appears giving the population as 700 Million. So the planet has a Class E star port (no facilities), size is A (10,000 miles), atmosphere is C (insidious), the hydrographics is 2 (definitely NOT water), with a population of 700 Million, a government of C (Charismatic Oligarchy), and a Law Level of C (extreme). The Tech Level is 9.

The Cultural Details are listed at B78C, which means what? It looks like there might be an army of 150 on the planet, for a population of 700 million?

Army size is Battalion Equivalents (BEs), about 500 men in each, so about 75,000 men. The army rules from Rebellion Sourcebook and Ground Forces give rules for swapping an BE for better equipment, meaning the army budget is spent on imported equipment and training, and not on recruiting local forces. So the army may be smaller than that.

The real kicker is in the Economic and Star Port details. For a population of 700 million, the GWP is 2,049 Million Credits, or less than 3 Credits per person. The trade volume is 177 Million Credits, or about a quarter-credit per person. The Class E star port does have the capacity to build 840,000 tons of ships per year, with only 15 employees. When did Class E star ports, with no facilities beyond a beacon showing where to land, begin to be building ships? The employees have to be incredibly productive to turn out 56,000 tons of ship per year each.

The GWP value should be Billion credits, so 2,927 Cr per person. With a class E port, there is almost no trade to or from the world. So a very small crew can handle the trade.

The ship building rules don't assume the port is building them, but the government is doing so as needed at port(s) not available to the civilian or external population.

The New Era data is just as bad, except the Tech Level is now A, and the population is now 800 million. The GWP has gone down and is now slightly over 2 Credits per person, with the Trade Volume has go up to 448 Million Credits per year, or 0.56 Credits per person per year. The Class E star port is still building ships, and has 25,510 employees to maintain the radio beacon showing the landing spot.

With the collapse of the rest of the greater Imperial civilization, the remaining trade in the Regency now needs to be routed through worlds less suited to managing it. Like Wochiers.

Although this example might be a bit extreme, I can only wonder how many more like it are in the Wiki. Note, there is no indication who put the page on Wochiers together.

This page isn't for human consumption. This is all generated data from the various Traveller versions and uploaded by a bot user. The main page has the important reference information.

Essentially, the Wiki data is only as good as the person posting it makes it. As Marc decides what is canon and what is not, and does change things, Traveller canon is not fixed at all. The best that can be said of an item is that on this specific day, the item was canon, tomorrow that could change.

Yes. And the wiki will always be a step or two behind any canon decision.

 

[Timerover51]

You did manage to find one of not for human consumption pages in the wiki. All of this data is on the main article in the box information in the left side of the page with better explanations.

How many more pages like this are in the Wiki then that are as you put it "not for human consumption"?

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Milieu_1116

When I have to start using the Wiki to figure out terms being used, I stop using the Wiki as being borderline incomprehensible.

Army size is Battalion Equivalents (BEs), about 500 men in each, so about 75,000 men. The army rules from Rebellion Sourcebook and Ground Forces give rules for swapping an BE for better equipment, meaning the army budget is spent on imported equipment and training, and not on recruiting local forces. So the army may be smaller than that.

How is one supposed to know that if they do not have the Rebellion Sourcebook and Ground Forces? The Wiki assumes that all users have all Traveller material.

The GWP value should be Billion credits, so 2,927 Cr per person. With a class E port, there is almost no trade to or from the world. So a very small crew can handle the trade.

So the planet population is producing less than 3.000 credits per yer on the average. That means a very large number are producing nothing at all.

The ship building rules don't assume the port is building them, but the government is doing so as needed at port(s) not available to the civilian or external population.

Where is this ever mentioned in the rules? Everything I have seen in the rules assumes that the listed star port is the best that there is on the planet. Then there is the Insidious Atmosphere to deal with.

With the collapse of the rest of the greater Imperial civilization, the remaining trade in the Regency now needs to be routed through worlds less suited to managing it. Like Wochiers.

Less that One Credit per person per year is an acceptable figure?

This page isn't for human consumption. This is all generated data from the various Traveller versions and uploaded by a bot user. The main page has the important reference information.

One, how is the casual user supposed to know this? And when are bots posting to the Wiki? How is that possible?

Yes. And the wiki will always be a step or two behind any canon decision.

Which means that it is a source of information which may or may not be correct, and may or may not be canon. In my view, this makes it a questionable resource at best. It is a resource, but needs to be treated carefully, just like Wikipedia.

 

[tjoneslo]

How many more pages like this are in the Wiki then that are as you put it "not for human consumption"?

A great many. All of them are the sub-pages. if you see a "/" in the article title, it is a sub-page and is probably not for normal consumption. The sub-pages are used for wiki internal processing.

How is one supposed to know that if they do not have the Rebellion Sourcebook and Ground Forces? The Wiki assumes that all users have all Traveller material.

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Trade_Map_Key

The wiki also has a very strong "No Game Rules" policy. So the wiki won't contain that information.

So the planet population is producing less than 3.000 credits per yer on the average. That means a very large number are producing nothing at all.

A per-capita income of less than 3,000 credits means the world is a poor one. A TL-9 world would expected to have a per-capita income of over Cr3,500. So this world is not only poor by Imperial standards, it is poor by TL-9 world standards.

Where is this ever mentioned in the rules? Everything I have seen in the rules assumes that the listed star port is the best that there is on the planet.

GT:Staports, where the port size and number of employees assume the SPA is paid from the fees for commercial trade through the port. If the government want to run a ship construction port (also class E) to build ships, they can.

Less that One Credit per person per year is an acceptable figure?

For external trade, sure. The class E port really says no interstellar trade.

Which means that it is a source of information which may or may not be correct, and may or may not be canon. In my view, this makes it a questionable resource at best. It is a resource, but needs to be treated carefully, just like Wikipedia.

Yes, it does. Please see previous messages in this thread.

 

[Timerover51]

A great many. All of them are the sub-pages. if you see a "/" in the article title, it is a sub-page and is probably not for normal consumption. The sub-pages are used for wiki internal processing.

How is the casual reader supposed to know this? I have been a forum member since September of 2012, and had no idea that there were difference classes of Wiki pages.

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Trade_Map_Key

The wiki also has a very strong "No Game Rules" policy. So the wiki won't contain that information.

Why would I look at a page that dealt with Trade to find out about military data? You are assuming that the reader is going to immediately know this.

A per-capita income of less than 3,000 credits means the world is a poor one. A TL-9 world would expected to have a per-capita income of over Cr3,500. So this world is not only poor by Imperial standards, it is poor by TL-9 world standards.

I suspect that you and I have totally different ideas as to what an average per capita production, not income, means to the average person.

GT:Staports (sic), where the port size and number of employees assume the SPA is paid from the fees for commercial trade through the port. If the government want to run a ship construction port (also class E) to build ships, they can.

Again, you are assuming that the average reader is instantly going to know that this information came from GURPS Traveller. I do not own and never plan to own any of the GURPS products. Therefore, I and any other reader who does not own GURPS Traveller is going to be quite baffled. If you are going to include material from GURPS Traveller in the Wiki, it should be clearly marked as such.

For external trade, sure. The class E port really says no interstellar trade.

If the Class E star port means no interstellar trade, why is this even mentioned then? Do no one check newly created Wiki pages?

Yes, it does. Please see previous messages in this thread.

I am not sure what you mean by this. However, as we appear to be talking about two different universes, I am not sure continuing this discussion any further is worthwhile.