Capital Ships

[Hal]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Even if you don'tlike Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium the point is still valid. The ships had to be bigger under the Mega Traveller rules to accomplish the same results under the High Guard design rules. Even the Patrol Cruiser was bigger. 440 vs 400.

Part of the problem lies with the fact that MT designed put a little more detail into ship design that were missing from CT. I seem to recall that a ship could sense another ship out to roughly 1.5 light seconds - or 3 light seconds if the target were already acquired. This was the CT rule set. MT changed that and gave values for the energy output.

GURPS Traveller ships can now build brigs, armories, battle suit morgues, ship's galley and so forth - items that were not present in the CT ship design.

I think - all things considered, that a lot of discussion about whether something is effective or not in *ANY* Traveller universe versus the CT Universe should look at the underlying principles of the game system involved. In GURPS TRAVELLER, a missile can be a far more devastating weapon than it ever was in CT. In T20, it would appear that the spinal mounts are more effective than ever.

I've never seen the T20 combat tables and such - but I can think of one way to alter combat probability tables to make them more CT like...

Larger Hulls automatically add a value to a die roll (or subtract depending on how the tables are set up). Use a bell curve distribution such that either high numbers or low numbers are equally unlikely. Place the ship killing crit results at either the low end of the spectrum or at the high end of the spectrum.

Example: using 2d6

2: vaporize ship
3: vaporize ship
4: Nasty result
5: Nasty result
6-10: Survivable result
11-12: No result

Ships of the largest class get a +2 on the table
ships of the next largest class get a +1
Normal sized ships get no modifications
Small craft get a -1 to result
smallest craft get -2 to result

As it is, I haven't the slightest clue on how T20 really does it - suffice to say that if a 4,000 dton ship can take out a capital class ship relatively easily - and you can get 100 smaller class ships for each larger class ship - something is WRONG (relative to CT rules only )

 

[Ben W Bell]

Originally posted by Jame]:
Now, in the OTU this seems to be battle-cruisers (a la the WW1 version) on up. What can y'all (go Texas, woo.) tell me about the various kinds and their purposes?

Traveller's Aide #7 Fighting Ships gives a fairly comprehensive run down on what the different classifications of ships are used for. It tells you the difference between a battlecruiser and a standard cruiser, a destroyer and a battle rider.

 

[Jame]

Sure, if you have the money.

But if ye have the money, no doubt it is!

 

[BetterThanLife]

TA#7 is only $5.00. If that is expensive you have stumbled into the wrong hobby.

Definitely stay away from anything by Games Workshop!

In all seriousness though Capital ships are whatever your GM wants them to be. Typically Capital Ships Have a Spinal Mount and a Jump Drive. Battle Riders and Monitors don't tend to be classed as ships. (Though they tend to be in the same general class.)

Originally posted by Jame]:
Sure, if you have the money.

But if ye have the money, no doubt it is!

 

[Jame]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
TA#7 is only $5.00. If that is expensive you have stumbled into the wrong hobby.

Definitely stay away from anything by Games Workshop!

Try being unemployed, with few prospects. That'll let you understand.

In all seriousness though Capital ships are whatever your GM wants them to be. Typically Capital Ships Have a Spinal Mount and a Jump Drive. Battle Riders and Monitors don't tend to be classed as ships. (Though they tend to be in the same general class.)

This is to get a sense of capital ships' capabilities, not their size. Though I agree about battle riders and monitors.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Jame]:
This is to get a sense of capital ships' capabilities, not their size. Though I agree about battle riders and monitors.

Ok, capabilities. And I'm talking about starships here, with internal jump drives and fuel. Riders will come later.

I classify capital ships according to tonnage, and then function (= capabilities). These classifications are my own, but align pretty well with canon.

Dreadnought: 300,000 dtons and up. Always has a big spinal mount and lots of secondary weapons. Usually has Marines and fighters. The "Tigress-class" is the classic example (although she doesn't have any Marines). This ship can do anything, and is intended to be an intimidator. These ships are not cost-effective but are very impressive.

Battleship: from 150,000 dtons to 250,000 dtons. Always has a big spinal mount and lots of secondary weapons. May have Marines, usually does not have fighters. The "Plankwell-class" is a good example. More specialized than a dreadnought, meant just for fighting other starships. Still not very cost-effective but useful for defensive actions where they might have to retreat using their own jump drives.

<<battlecruisers belong here, but I'm putting them at the bottom because they're a more complex subject and need more space>>

Cruiser: from 30,000 dtons to 80,000 dtons. Usually has a spinal mount and secondary weapons. Often very specialized, some specializations are:

Missile cruiser-may skip the spinal mount, has lots of missile bays and magazine space to support them. Often well armored and very agile. Useful for planetary bombardment.

Strike cruiser-usually a particle accelerator spinal mount, missile bays, often some fighters. Intended for planetary bombardment and support of ground troops. Might carry some troops itself. Meson gun bays make excellent ortillery weapons for this type of ship.

Raider cruiser-spinal mount, lots of energy weapons, high jump capacity. Intended for commerce raiding, operations behind enemy lines. Usually too lightly protected for the line of battle.

Light cruiser-the smallest ship you can cram a spinal mount into. Usually not well protected and with little secondary armament, used for escort/rear area defense. Can be dangerous in sufficient numbers.

Heavy cruiser-the most balanced of the cruisers, also usually the biggest. Tries to be a small battleship, with decent protection and firepower. Intended to kill other cruisers, and snipe at battleships in a fleet action.

Battlecruiser - This is a complex subject. Historically battlecruisers (BCs) suffered from an identity crisis: no one agreed on just what they were for. Everyone knew what a battleship did; it fought other battleships for control of the seas and it killed anything else that tried to stand up to it. Cruisers killed other cruisers and patrolled the seas to keep out the riff-raff, but had to run from battleships. Battlecruisers didn't fit into any of this.

The British initially designed their battlecruisers to hunt down and kill enemy cruisers and commerce raiders, so they gave them high speed, heavy firepower, and thinner armor. The Germans built their battlecruisers as faster versions of their battleships, and so their battlecruisers gave up a little firepower and armor to get speed just under that of the British battlecruisers. When the US finally got around to building ships like this (the "Alaska" class) they were called "large cruisers" and had firepower and armor in between that of cruisers and battleships, while they were just as fast as any cruiser (thanks in part to better technology than WW1 ships).

All this means that the "battlecruiser" type of ship has the fuzziest definition of any naval vessel and so you can make them do whatever you want in YTU. IMTU they work like this:

Battlecruiser-from 80,000 dtons to 150,000 dtons. Carries a cruiser-sized spinal mount and lots of secondary weapons. Usually has Marines and a fighter group. Tries to be a "dreadnought writ small," able to go anywhere and do anything, but on a more limited scale. Not as impressive as a dreadnought, but cheaper.

 

[Dom]

Originally posted by Hal:
As it is, I haven't the slightest clue on how T20 really does it - suffice to say that if a 4,000 dton ship can take out a capital class ship relatively easily - and you can get 100 smaller class ships for each larger class ship - something is WRONG (relative to CT rules only )

Actually, it's wrong compared to pretty much all the other editions of Traveller. It's the little things like this (when they aren't tested) that make big differences and undermine the canon background. Having small destroyers that can kill a battleship in a single hit (when designed with effectively the same sequence as HG/CT) change the way the universe works.

I wish it weren't the case, but it is...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Try being unemployed, with few prospects. That'll let you understand.

Write an article for COTI (or something bigger, if you're feeling really creative). You won't get rich, but it'll buy you a few Traveller books.

 

[Jame]

Maybe something about Depots.

 

[mike wightman]

I'd buy it.

 

[Jame]

So I suppose I have to write it.

I might need some help, at least in terms of resources and a pointer on how to get QLI to buy it.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

If you want a co-author, give me a shout.

Getting it published is simple: just email MJD with a description. If he likes the idea, all you have to then is write the thing!

 

[Jame]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
If you want a co-author, give me a shout.

Getting it published is simple: just email MJD with a description. If he likes the idea, all you have to then is write the thing!

First I'll "call" MJD. Then we may talk.

 

[Dom]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I'd buy it.

I'd buy a well done Solomani Fleet set like TA7.

Dom

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by The Oz:

This is how TRAVELLER big-ship combat has been since HG. TNE changed things with FF&S so that meson screens could be built to any desired size and meson screens then also subtracted damage from incoming meson guns, making bigger ships more survivable. I know nothing of T4, but T20 seems to have made meson guns even more lethal than HG had them.

IIRC TNE only had meson screens subtract damage in Battle Rider. In Brilliant Lances and TNE proper they were still all-or-nothing.

 

[MJD]

Jame, mail me on mjd.qli@virgin.net about a submission. If you can justify TA7 as a necessity for your article you can have it as part of the fee but up front if you see what I mean.

 

[Jame]

Originally posted by MJD:
Jame, mail me on mjd.qli@virgin.net about a submission. If you can justify TA7 as a necessity for your article you can have it as part of the fee but up front if you see what I mean.

Done - two days ago, in fact. Just a little elbow-joggling.