Cargo modules for more fuel

[PsiTraveller]

So played teh Drinax campaign today, and the party was trying to figure out how to get to Theev with their Jump 2 reach. They decided to fill the cargo hull with containers to give themselves 40 tons of fuel.
This would allow them to Jump into open space, refuel and make it to Theev in another week of travelling.

The fuel dump that can be found has 4 ton modules of Liquid hydrogen fuel tankage mentioned, but for the life of me I cannot find a price for such a thing.

The other low cost idea was to take 40 tons of water and pump the water through the processors and refuel that way, but they also got the location of the fuel cache, so they want to fill the hold with the tainted fuel and process it as they Jump to Theev, and arrive with full tanks in case things go badly.

Are there costs for internal storage tanks? I remember something from TNE about collapsible bladders, and there was something in the RCES Hornet books about it, but I cannot seem to track down a cost.

Anyone elses book fu better than mine?

Thanks

 

[PsiTraveller]

found it!

Trillion Credit Squadron for CT books pg 14, but is there a Mongoose reference?

 

[Spinward Scout]

According to The Traveller Adventure (not sure if it's the same for Mongoose), it's says a new 50 ton demountable tank is 50,000Cr - so about 1,000 credits per ton.

That's actually a great idea using containers for fuel storage. Just a matter of pumping the extra into the fuel tanks when needed.

 

[rancke]

The other low cost idea was to take 40 tons of water and pump the water through the processors and refuel that way, but they also got the location of the fuel cache, so they want to fill the hold with the tainted fuel and process it as they Jump to Theev, and arrive with full tanks in case things go badly.

You get more than a dT of hydrogen out of a dT of water. I can't remember how much more, unfortunately.


Hans

 

[PsiTraveller]

Spinward, what module and page number?

Scout, to be honest the conversion of scooped or unrefined fuel strikes me as a bit of voodoo in terms of game mechanics. Scooping a gas giant atmosphere and purifying it in L Hyd and then adding some water into the same tank and purifying that as well strikes me as a recipe for MisJumps. You will never be able to guarantee everything has gone through the processor.

So I am just ignoring the real life physics and chemistry. Fill a 60 ton tank with water, process 60 tons and you have 60 tons of fuel. Fill the same tank with gas from a gas giant and process it, 60 tons of fuel. I am not trying to prove the physics of getting enough L Hyd from a Methane or NH3 or exotic atmosphere gas giant. Not worried about it. It is not the driving force in my storyline. (Although I did use the almost 7 days the Vulture ship needs to process its fuel supply to change up the timing of ship movement.) But that is as far as I am pushing the math.

But the party was looking at my large scale map (I have the TR Sector printed out so the 4 pieces of cardstock it takes covers the dining room table).
They saw the long route around to get to Theev and started trying to figure out a way to get there faster. The cargo hold of fuel was quickly siezed on. They also wished there was a fuel station somewhere in between. This was all done before they met Krrsh on the Station. They were happy with their ideas and the way they figured things out.

 

[Condottiere]

It's rather abstract, though I would have supposed that a water tank should be cheaper than one meant to hold hydrogen or fuel.

Also, you could opt for the expandable bladder option.

 

[rancke]

So I am just ignoring the real life physics and chemistry.

Nothing wrong with that. Ignoring real life physics and chemistry is certainly in the finest traditions of Traveller.

It's only a problem if a referee likes to have a better explanation than "because I say so" when a player tries to invoke real life physics and chemistry.

Fill a 60 ton tank with water, process 60 tons and you have 60 tons of fuel. Fill the same tank with gas from a gas giant and process it, 60 tons of fuel.

I don't think there has ever been a statement about how much water or gas giant atmosphere you process during wilderness fuelling. You sit your ship down in an ocean and fill your fuel tanks. You make one pass through a gas giant's atmosphere and fill your tanks. That's it as far as hard information goes.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

You get more than a dT of hydrogen out of a dT of water. I can't remember how much more, unfortunately.

To make it short:

As a molecule of water has a molecular weight of 18 gr/mol, of wich 16 are from the oxygen atom and 2 from the 2 hydrogen atoms, 1/9 of the water weight is hydrogen.

So, if you have 9 tons of water (needing 9 m³ volume), you can electrolyze it (after all you have plenty of power, being fusion powered) into 1 ton of hydrogen and 8 tons of oxygen (that will probably be wellcome in some hostile environment colony).

The conclusion is that if you take water as fuel reserve, you need only 9 m³ per ton of hydrogen (against the usual 14), but you must have storage for the resulting oxygen, or release it to space, and will need some time to electrolyze it before using.

 

[Condottiere]

Could you, perhaps, use the resulting oxygen to top up declining levels in the crew compartments?

 

[atpollard]

To make it short:

As a molecule of water has a molecular weight of 18 gr/mol, of wich 16 are from the oxygen atom and 2 from the 2 hydrogen atoms, 1/9 of the water weight is hydrogen.

So, if you have 9 tons of water (needing 9 m³ volume), you can electrolyze it (after all you have plenty of power, being fusion powered) into 1 ton of hydrogen and 8 tons of oxygen (that will probably be wellcome in some hostile environment colony).

The conclusion is that if you take water as fuel reserve, you need only 9 m³ per ton of hydrogen (against the usual 14), but you must have storage for the resulting oxygen, or release it to space, and will need some time to electrolyze it before using.

The LOX could probably be stored on the container that originally held the water.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Spinward, what module and page number?

The Traveller Adventure

It's in the chapter/section called: In Search of Longer Legs. (pg. 44)

 

[PsiTraveller]

Multiple tanks are needed to store material during the process, otherwise you keep contaminating the Hydrogen tank with oxygen and getting more water back, so your 60 ton fuel tank (for example) needs to be divided up into 3 20 ton units and then have a spare 20 ton tank to hold the first batch of processed material so you can empty out one of the 20 ton fuel tanks to put more fuel into as you process the second fuel tank.

Cracking the products of gas giants and asteroid ice/comets will IRL provide an awesome array of chemicals and water/oxygen/hydrogen. The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin gives an excellent example of how to use native envrioment materials on Mars to make everything from fuel to plastic in a Fuel Processor.

IMT game I am looking at doing the same thing, and allowing a business model using a modified fuel processor to provide plastic and petrochemicals from harvesting a methane gas giant. A bit of a change from the Roughneck Class harvester, and the Audi Diesel fuel from water and C02. It would allow a low tech level planet to get hydrocarbon fuel without the need for Drilling infrastructure. Just modify the output of a Fuel Processor.

Another fun book for MTU is Marshall Savage's "How to Colonize the Galaxy in 8 Easy Steps." The chapters on the riches of an asteroid belt point to a huge boost in a system economy when those resources are exploited.

Both books have some good material about making fuel from available materials.

 

[rancke]

Multiple tanks are needed to store material during the process, otherwise you keep contaminating the Hydrogen tank with oxygen and getting more water back, so your 60 ton fuel tank (for example) needs to be divided up into 3 20 ton units and then have a spare 20 ton tank to hold the first batch of processed material so you can empty out one of the 20 ton fuel tanks to put more fuel into as you process the second fuel tank.

Presumably an ultra-tech fuel purifier has ways to handle any such problem built in.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Presumably an ultra-tech fuel purifier has ways to handle any such problem built in.
Hans

I always just assumed a built in bladder so the balloon filled with water could deflate and the balloon to hold the LH2 could inflate within the same storage tank. I know that LH2 makes metals very sad from prolonged exposure, so a fuel tank probably already had some sort of hydrogen-proof bladder. How much can a waterproof bladder add to the cost of a 100,000 credit per dTon tank.

 

[McPerth]

Could you, perhaps, use the resulting oxygen to top up declining levels in the crew compartments?

That could be dangerous, as oxygen is toxic above certain levels (IIRC about 40-60% at 1 bar presure).

IIRC my chemical studies (many years ago) a mol of gas (in this case 32 g of oxigen) accupies about 22 liters at 1 bar presure and 25ºC temperature. So a single ton of oxigen would occupy about 687 kl (a little under 50 dtons), if I've done my math right, so, this single ton of oxygen cam make breathable (oxygen about 20%) about 250 dtons of ship (assuming there was no oxygen at all on it).

Keeing this numbers, to obtain a single ton of hydrogen (and obtaining 8 tons of oxygen in the process), you obtain oxygen to make breathable abaut 2000 dtons of ship...

I guess you will have lots of spare oxygen to store, and will need storage for it

The LOX could probably be stored on the container that originally held the water.

It's a possibility. Frankly, I have no idea of how much volume LOX needs, but the container must be quite stronguer tan one to jsuu hold water.

 

[rancke]

The LOX could probably be stored on the container that originally held the water.

Unless the fuel processing absolutely HAS to take place in jumpspace, the simplest solution is to vent the excess oxygen.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

It's a possibility. Frankly, I have no idea of how much volume LOX needs, but the container must be quite stronger tan one to just hold water.

This is Traveller, we can just run the Oxygen (atomic #8) through the PP and fusion it into sulfur (atomic # 16) and store it as a powder.

 

[atpollard]

Unless the fuel processing absolutely HAS to take place in jumpspace, the simplest solution is to vent the excess oxygen.

Hans

I agree 100% ... of course if it catches on, then 10,000 years from now the Eighth Imperium may have to contend with giant space whales skimming the free oxygen from interplanetary space.

 

[CosmicGamer]

For Mongoose,

The core rules mention a fuel module for the 50 ton modular cutter. Allows this small craft to do fuel skimming and ferry fuel. The 30t fuel capacity module costs MCr 1.

Drop Tanks are on page 43 of high guard
It's not just pricing. Rules for use, dangers, changing a ship performance - a 400dt ship with a 160dt drop tank no longer has the same maneuverability.

Spinward Marches and other books make reference to collapsible ‘fuel bladders’ and more permanent conversions for extending a ships range to reach remote worlds, but I don't know if or where these items are detailed.

I'd think it cheaper than the external drop tank which costs MCr 0.1 per 50 tons of fuel space. The hookups should also be far cheaper than the MCr 1 per 50tons as docking ports and explosive collars wouldn't be needed.

 

[PsiTraveller]

The fuel module is an odd price IMHO. It seems pretty expensive for only 30 ton capacity. But I am taking the stats and using it for the 30 tons at a time to process into Petrochemicals or Polymer derivatives.
Even if you take a 3 to 1 ratio your 30 tons of fuels worth 500/ton (15000 Credits) could be turned into 10 tons of refined oil or synthetic fibre spools worth 50,000 to 70,000 Credits.

That is not bad money on a daily basis. It definitely pays the bills.

Large ships could be called Nostromos and convert material on the way to the final destination. Process chunks of iceteroids or holds full of gas giant atmosphere. Gets to the destination with storage holds full of finished or semi finished goods.