Carrier Squadron: What is it good for?

[Garnfellow]

So squadrons built around a carrier -- whether you call it a CarRon, CarrierRon, or CruRon (Carrier) -- seem to exist in both the Imperial and Solomani Confederation navies. They are far less common than BatRons or CruRons, and the topic of "are fighters effective in the OTU?" always makes for a lively conversation.

But for the moment, let's assume that fighters are effective in the OTU up to TL 13, but are not effective at TL 14 or 15.

So in 1105, how would the Imperial and Confederation navies use these squadrons? What's their mission? Within a typical sector fleet, would they be most effectively deployed?

 

[Condottiere]

Canonically, the Solomani Navy would use them in support of either FleetRons for fleet actions, or AssRons for planetary assaults.

You're looking at one or two carriers in the group, with four to eight hundred fighters.

Uncanonically, I'd integrate them into the dreadnoughts, and build lots of escort carriers.

 

[McPerth]

As the effectivity of fighters in battle varies quite a lot according to the rules used (e.g. they are nearly useless in HG at high TLs, they are quite useful in MgT at any TL) the answer can also vary...

Assuming you're talking about HG (as you specify fighters are not effective at TL 14-15), they still have their uses:

• not all ships fought against are those high TLs (e.g. planetary, reserve or subsector fleets), and in those cases they keep being effective
• ground support, being used as orbital/air superiority or tactical support crafts
• tactical reccon (inside the system)
• raids to support fleets

And sure some more uses...

 

[mike wightman]

A fighter is a pretty effective 'grav tank' - so very useful for ground support.
Scouting, picket duty, commerce raiding, piracy suppression.

As mentioned upthread fighters in HG are verging on useless at high TLs because of the computer DM - building a power plant that can provide the EPs for the computer and the cost of the computer itself makes for very inefficient design cost wise.

Adding rules for fighters to combine and fight as a squadron can help a bit.

Under other rules fighters can be decisive - MgT especially has fighter squadrons more than capable of destroying capital ships (the authors of MgT want Star Wars not CT ship combat).

LBB2/Mayday combat also allows fighters to be effective against big ships.

 

[whartung]

Fighters help break the "1 turret/100 tons" rule, since you can mount weapons on a fighter than displaces less that 100 tons.

This allows you to bring more guns to the fight, which is usually advantageous.

When the TL offset the advantage of "low tech" guns, the fighters become less useful.

 

[Garnfellow]

So I'm picturing a couple of very different roles -- combat support for BatRons or solo as a jumped up patrol force, particularly for lower tech systems.

 

[epicenter00]

So in 1105, how would the Imperial and Confederation navies use these squadrons? What's their mission? Within a typical sector fleet, would they be most effectively deployed?

I imagine that even in the standard Traveller universe, even a primary Imperial battlefleet has elements which are actually not TL14-15. I've always felt that IN doctrine states all forward elements (the ones expected to do the brunt of the fighting and getting the glory) to be TL15. The immediate support wings and ships doing babysitting of a lot of the logistics train to be TL15 but with TL14 ships filling in gaps. In "reality" doctrine doesn't survive "reality" and there's likely TL13 ships in the IN, like colonial squadrons or even merchantmen activated and pressed into support roles and so on since navies rarely have enough prepared ships for combat. TL14 and TL15 ships break down or are damaged in combat. There's simply not enough of them around so some duties, especially those not expected to see combat are relegated to TL13 ships. TL13 battleships would not be expected fight TL14 let alone TL15 battleships and win, but they might be expected to fight TL14 and TL15 cruisers and perhaps delay high TL battleships. Fighters might actually sortie out and go poking about for these lower TL ships like that to hunt down.

However, my greatest suspicion about fighters in the TL14 and TL15 era on the battle line is that they'd take on the role of light cavalry. Not the Napoleonic version but the Ancient version of it: They hunt down the wounded, the stragglers, fleeing enemies, and so on - people with damaged computers or m-drives who can't pull off ballerina moves in their huge battleships anymore. In a big naval battle, these shiny TL14 and TL15 ships get hit. They get hit hard. They get hit hard enough so that they can no longer maneuver well; maybe their drives are knocked off line, their computers are destroyed, whatever. A TL14 or TL15 battleship is a significant investment in resources; you don't want these ships to be salvaged, especially if you (as the commanding admiral) are not sure if you're going to be in possession of the battlefield after the fight, so you want to destroy these enemy cripples so they can't be recovered and repaired. You could let your cruisers and battleships handle it, but ships are pretty durable and in "reality" they probably last far longer than they do in Traveller wargames where "destroyed" ships are neatly identified and removed from play.

So you let the fighters handle it. Once a battleship is no longer able to move or fire very well, so its manuver advantage is gone. The fighters are loaded with nukes and so on and are sent in to finish off the enemy ship. This lets your battleships and cruisers maneuver and bring their firepower on the enemy effectives. They can drive off ships like tugs and possibly even Battle Tenders (perhaps they can't hit the Battle Tender because of wonky Traveller computer rules, but they can prevent it from grabbing the battleship and leaving). It's obviously a stupidly hazardous job; other battleships and cruisers might try and cover their crippled fleetmate. The enemy Admiral probably will launch his fighters to try and intercept yours.

 

[whartung]

I imagine that even in the standard Traveller universe, even a primary Imperial battlefleet has elements which are actually not TL14-15. I've always felt that IN doctrine states all forward elements (the ones expected to do the brunt of the fighting and getting the glory) to be TL15. The immediate support wings and ships doing babysitting of a lot of the logistics train to be TL15 but with TL14 ships filling in gaps.

(Using HG here…)

The logistics train will be the best bang/buck ships that can be bought since the majority of them are big holes in space with drives. They will use the "cheapest" tech. TL-15 power plants are twice as efficient as TL14.

But since the power plant is typically not a dominant design feature in a logistics ship, the lower TL may be worth have a plant twice as big as a TL 15 plant.

There is no advantage to a TL15 J3 drive. They just as big, go just as far, and cost just as much, and use just as much fuel as a TL15 drive. I would argue they should be cheaper at TL15, but…it is what it is.

But in the end, there's no reason for the IN to be flying "low tech" ships unless they want to fly "low tech" ships. The IN has had HUNDREDS OF YEARS to build up, and rebuild up, and build up again. HUNDREDS OF YEARS of TL15 availability. HUNDREDS OF YEARS without a resource exhausting campaign that could not be replenished readily. HUNDREDS OF YEARS for low tech ships to come in to service, serve, become reserve, then get scrapped and replaced.

Only the Rebellion reset the IN, everything else can be considered "employee shrinkage" or "wear and tear". The resources available to the IN are enormous.

So, simply, anything the IN wants to be TL 15, can be TL 15 -- whether it's ships, depots, shipyards, etc. You can't even blame political foot dragging, as there are generations of people involved that have come, ruled, foot dragged, and then retired and died in the time of the IN building up it's fleet.

 

[Condottiere]

In comparison to our actual warships, Traveller ones are around a hundred times cheap to maintain annually, which discourages new construction unless necessary.

 

[McPerth]

However, my greatest suspicion about fighters in the TL14 and TL15 era on the battle line is that they'd take on the role of light cavalry. Not the Napoleonic version but the Ancient version of it: They hunt down the wounded, the stragglers, fleeing enemies, and so on - people with damaged computers or m-drives who can't pull off ballerina moves in their huge battleships anymore. In a big naval battle, these shiny TL14 and TL15 ships get hit. They get hit hard. They get hit hard enough so that they can no longer maneuver well; maybe their drives are knocked off line, their computers are destroyed, whatever. A TL14 or TL15 battleship is a significant investment in resources; you don't want these ships to be salvaged, especially if you (as the commanding admiral) are not sure if you're going to be in possession of the battlefield after the fight, so you want to destroy these enemy cripples so they can't be recovered and repaired. You could let your cruisers and battleships handle it, but ships are pretty durable and in "reality" they probably last far longer than they do in Traveller wargames where "destroyed" ships are neatly identified and removed from play.

See that, if using HG, little damage will be achieved against those heavily armored ships computers or drives, unless they are hit by the larger spinals, and then they are likely to be mission killed anyway.

In HG, most non spinal damage against such ships is due to surface explosion nukes, and most of this damage will go to weaponry and fuel. Even PA spinals are likely to only do this same damage.

Of this damage, weapons will make them no more vulnerable than they are while new, and you need many fuel hits to leave them out of fuel (and so without maneuver drives), but, if achieved, they are again mission killed (unable to do anything but throwing missiles without computer modifier).

(Using HG here…)

The logistics train will be the best bang/buck ships that can be bought since the majority of them are big holes in space with drives. They will use the "cheapest" tech. TL-15 power plants are twice as efficient as TL14.

But since the power plant is typically not a dominant design feature in a logistics ship, the lower TL may be worth have a plant twice as big as a TL 15 plant.

There is no advantage to a TL15 J3 drive. They just as big, go just as far, and cost just as much, and use just as much fuel as a TL15 drive. I would argue they should be cheaper at TL15, but…it is what it is.

But in the end, there's no reason for the IN to be flying "low tech" ships unless they want to fly "low tech" ships. The IN has had HUNDREDS OF YEARS to build up, and rebuild up, and build up again. HUNDREDS OF YEARS of TL15 availability. HUNDREDS OF YEARS without a resource exhausting campaign that could not be replenished readily. HUNDREDS OF YEARS for low tech ships to come in to service, serve, become reserve, then get scrapped and replaced.

Only the Rebellion reset the IN, everything else can be considered "employee shrinkage" or "wear and tear". The resources available to the IN are enormous.

So, simply, anything the IN wants to be TL 15, can be TL 15 -- whether it's ships, depots, shipyards, etc. You can't even blame political foot dragging, as there are generations of people involved that have come, ruled, foot dragged, and then retired and died in the time of the IN building up it's fleet.

But maybe not all the supply train (not even all the battle squadrons) are IN regulars, the rest being composed by reserve/colonial fleets and mobilized merchant ships. And we cannot rule out that some (many) of them are under TL 15. See that in FFW colonial squadrons are assumed to be lower TL tan front-line IN ones.

And sure in many cases planetary navies (if you're on offensive) will not be TL 15, and you still have to overcome them.

 

[epicenter00]

So, simply, anything the IN wants to be TL 15, can be TL 15 -- whether it's ships, depots, shipyards, etc. You can't even blame political foot dragging, as there are generations of people involved that have come, ruled, foot dragged, and then retired and died in the time of the IN building up it's fleet.

Yeah, but that's the strange part about the OTU.

It's not all TL15. You're right, it should be, but it's not.

They have weird designs like TL14 battleships and so on in the Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium and so on. These are not new stop-gap designs used as the Rebellion ground on. Apparently the Imperium was actually making them. (Let's not even get into the illogic about why planets in the Imperium's more coreward sectors are still TL12 or something after all this time - they can't all possibly be anti-technology.)

 

[kilemall]

I can think of a reason for lower tech IN ships-

pork barrel politics, spreading the Navy dollar around to buy friends and develop planets.

With perhaps some justification that 'we can stretch the budget, provide internal control/anti-piracy and build the hulls cheap now, refit later'.

Which is the sort of thing that sounds great until the mesons start flying.

 

[mike wightman]

Yeah, but that's the strange part about the OTU.

It's not all TL15. You're right, it should be, but it's not.

They have weird designs like TL14 battleships and so on in the Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium and so on. These are not new stop-gap designs used as the Rebellion ground on. Apparently the Imperium was actually making them. (Let's not even get into the illogic about why planets in the Imperium's more coreward sectors are still TL12 or something after all this time - they can't all possibly be anti-technology.)

Nope, Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium shows the evolution of Imperial ship design. The IN is TL15 period.
Colonial/reserve stuff may be lower TL, either hand me downs or new builds from the IN database of lower TL designs.

A better source is S9, every ship in the modern fleet is TL15 or a TL14/15 refit.
The Atlantic class cruiser, a TL15 design, has fluff text to say it is old and obsolute and more modern TL15 designs are replacing it.