• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

CT Only: Character Creation: Most Elegant Synthesis of Book 1 & Supplement 4?

GM Joe

SOC-12
Peer of the Realm
I've seen a number of people commenting that they only use Book 1 and Supplement 4 for character creation. Sounds good, but Supplement 4 uses Book 4 & 5 skills in some cases, while Book 1 doesn't. So you end up with, for example, Sailors with Battle Dress skill and Marines that can't acquire it.

Of course, you can always do a wholesale rewrite of either Book 1 or Supplement 4. And if you're doing that, you can go all the way and increase the number of skills characters can get (one way or another) to bring them more in line with Books 5-7.

But is there a more elegant way to handle it?
 
I've seen a number of people commenting that they only use Book 1 and Supplement 4 for character creation. Sounds good, but Supplement 4 uses Book 4 & 5 skills in some cases, while Book 1 doesn't. So you end up with, for example, Sailors with Battle Dress skill and Marines that can't acquire it.

It's not the skill. You can always add new skills to Book 1, replacing them on the chargen tables. It's the method of chargen that is different from Book 1 and Supp 4 that is the issue.
 
It's not the skill. You can always add new skills to Book 1, replacing them on the chargen tables. It's the method of chargen that is different from Book 1 and Supp 4 that is the issue.

There are several differences. So what's the best solution, in your opinion?
 
There are several differences. So what's the best solution, in your opinion?

The solution, imo, is to stick with one type of chargen or the other. I run my games only using Basic. And, I've run some only using Advanced.

I think, if you're talking re-write, then I'd just go with one type of chargen and stick with it--as has been done with later versions of Traveller.

If you're re-writing CT, then either go with all Advanced or all Basic. Don't mix 'em.
 
I think you have missed the point of the OP - he is wanting to stick to basic LBB1 and S4:CotI character generation, not use advanced.

The problem is skill that were added in LBB4 and LBB5 appear on the skill tables in S4:CotI. You need LBB4 and LBB5 to know how to use the skills.

In LBB1 no military character can get battledress skill, yet in S4:CotI a sailor can.

Solution 1 - remove all skills that are not in LBB1 from S4:CotI and substitute the most suitable replacement from LBB1

Solution 2 - make up rules for the skills you don't have the rules for.

Solution 3 - get LBB4 and 5 for the skill descriptions, and allow LBB1 military careers to substitute battle dress for vac suit if appropriate.

Solution 4 - complete re-write of the LBB1 generation tables using skill cascades to select skills
eg - table says space:technical, select from commo, gravitics, electronics, mechanical - that sort of thing.

I would go with option 1 or 2 personally.
 
I like Solution 3 there. Besides allowing Battlederess instead of Vaccsuit, what else would be needed? Weapon skills? Any skills from 4/5 that should really be available?

Actually, does a list exist comparing the skills available in Bk1 vs new skills in 4/5? Then the GM could cherry pick for substitutions.
 
Wow, I really should have written that first post more clearly!

To clarify: I do have all the books, but I am trying to some up with something for new players that wouldn't involve a lot of cross-referencing. I can stick with Book 1, but it would be nice to also offer the careers from Supplement 4: CotI. But then you run into the problem that those careers offer skills that should logically be offered to the careers in Book 1, but aren't.

Here's a list of the skills in CotI that are from Books 4 and/or 5:
Battle Dress
Carousing
Communications
Demolition
Gravitics
Instruction
Interrogation
Liaison
Recon
Recruiting
Ship Tactics
Survival

I did find a nice synthesis of the two (which also offers a good attempt at bringing skill parity with advanced character generation): Revised Basic Character Generation for Classic Traveller [PDF].

I could clean that up a bit and offer it to new players, but I wondered if there wasn't a simpler way. My first thought was to solve the skill number disparity by stealing the "enlisted ranks" idea from the above PDF (you still roll for promo if uncommissioned, and if you succeed you get a skill and advance in the enlisted ranks, which of course don't matter for mustering out benefits), and add a simple 8+ roll (with DMs from the Enlistment Roll) for Special Duty (success granting another skill roll).

But then I got stuck at the point where the skill mix is so different from Book 1 to CotI. That's why I wondered if anyone had a simple, elegant solution to that problem.

Sorry for the confusion! I posted with a little too much haste. :)
 
That's why I wondered if anyone had a simple, elegant solution to that problem.

The "Basic" half of the MegaTraveller character generation chapter is the wheel you are trying to reinvent. All eighteen careers, one skill list. Keep using the CT skill *descriptions* except where MT has used a new grouping. Heck, you could probably just drop the MT career tables and the two page master skill chart into the CT processes.
 
Another option would be to try and pair up the CotI skills with LBB1 skills, then offer the player rolling the LBB1 character the choice of the basic skill or the CotI skill,
e.g. battledress/vaccsuit,, streetwise/carousing, admin/liaison: weapon skills could have demo added as a choice etc.

One final option - make some new skill tables to add to the ones in LBB1.
e.g.
Navy - carousing, commo, gravitics, instruction, liaison, ship tactics

Note there are some skills in cotI that i would remove and replace with LBB1 skills - instruction and recruiting - and some that I would just replace because they are just other skills renamed - liaison/carousing/streetwise are just about all the same (maybe the higher your soc and rank the more refined skill name you take).
 
Last edited:
I think you have missed the point of the OP - he is wanting to stick to basic LBB1 and S4:CotI character generation, not use advanced.

The problem is skill that were added in LBB4 and LBB5 appear on the skill tables in S4:CotI. You need LBB4 and LBB5 to know how to use the skills.

In LBB1 no military character can get battledress skill, yet in S4:CotI a sailor can.

Solution 1 - remove all skills that are not in LBB1 from S4:CotI and substitute the most suitable replacement from LBB1

Solution 2 - make up rules for the skills you don't have the rules for.

Solution 3 - get LBB4 and 5 for the skill descriptions, and allow LBB1 military careers to substitute battle dress for vac suit if appropriate.

Solution 4 - complete re-write of the LBB1 generation tables using skill cascades to select skills
eg - table says space:technical, select from commo, gravitics, electronics, mechanical - that sort of thing.

I would go with option 1 or 2 personally.
Solution 5 - Use the MT character Generation tables which is essentially solution 4 already done.
 
The "Basic" half of the MegaTraveller character generation chapter is the wheel you are trying to reinvent. All eighteen careers, one skill list. Keep using the CT skill *descriptions* except where MT has used a new grouping. Heck, you could probably just drop the MT career tables and the two page master skill chart into the CT processes.

That's a good point. Unfortunately, I sold all my MT stuff shortly after Imperium Games went out of business since I didn't need it for reference anymore and had always preferred CT over it. All I have at this point is my shelves o' CT stuff, long with the T4 stuff from when I was working on that.

I think you have missed the point of the OP - he is wanting to stick to basic LBB1 and S4:CotI character generation, not use advanced.

The problem is skill that were added in LBB4 and LBB5 appear on the skill tables in S4:CotI. You need LBB4 and LBB5 to know how to use the skills.

In LBB1 no military character can get battledress skill, yet in S4:CotI a sailor can.

Solution 1 - remove all skills that are not in LBB1 from S4:CotI and substitute the most suitable replacement from LBB1

Solution 2 - make up rules for the skills you don't have the rules for.

Solution 3 - get LBB4 and 5 for the skill descriptions, and allow LBB1 military careers to substitute battle dress for vac suit if appropriate.

Solution 4 - complete re-write of the LBB1 generation tables using skill cascades to select skills
eg - table says space:technical, select from commo, gravitics, electronics, mechanical - that sort of thing.

I would go with option 1 or 2 personally.

I like Solution 3 there. Besides allowing Battlederess instead of Vaccsuit, what else would be needed? Weapon skills? Any skills from 4/5 that should really be available?

Actually, does a list exist comparing the skills available in Bk1 vs new skills in 4/5? Then the GM could cherry pick for substitutions.

Another option would be to try and pair up the CotI skills with LBB1 skills, then offer the player rolling the LBB1 character the choice of the basic skill or the CotI skill,
e.g. battledress/vaccsuit,, streetwise/carousing, admin/liaison: weapon skills could have demo added as a choice etc.

One final option - make some new skill tables to add to the ones in LBB1.
e.g.
Navy - carousing, commo, gravitics, instruction, liaison, ship tactics

Note there are some skills in cotI that i would remove and replace with LBB1 skills - instruction and recruiting - and some that I would just replace because they are just other skills renamed - liaison/carousing/streetwise are just about all the same (maybe the higher your soc and rank the more refined skill name you take).

Mike - Hmm! Lots of good ideas to think about. Thank you, Mike!

Let me go through the skill list and see if I can divide them up. (By the way, I missed Zero-G Combat when I made my previous post on the list of skills in CotI that aren't in LBB1.)

Easy ones to replace in CotI:
Battle Dress - Replace with Vacc Suit in CotI.
Carousing - Replace with Streetwise in CotI.
Communications - Replace with Electronics in CotI.
Liaison - Replace with Streetwise in CotI.

Skills that should probably be back-ported to LBB1:
Demolition
Interrogation
Recon
Ship Tactics (With Book 2 space combat, perhaps take Ship Tactics skill level minus one, round down, and add to Predict and/or Maneuver/Evade program level?)
Survival
Zero-G Combat

Could Go Either Way:
Gravitics - Replace with Electronics in CotI?
Instruction - Replace with Admin in CotI?
Recruiting - Replace with Streetwise in CotI?

Hmm. As I look at it, Solution 3 is starting to seem most promising. Either that or throw up my hands and just stick to LBB1.

What do you think?
 
That's a good point. Unfortunately, I sold all my MT stuff shortly after Imperium Games went out of business since I didn't need it for reference anymore and had always preferred CT over it. All I have at this point is my shelves o' CT stuff, long with the T4 stuff from when I was working on that.

The PDF of the one book is available on RPGNow, or the whole line from FFE on CD.


The OP is asking for a CT based solution - buy a different game is not it.

25 years after both editions fell out of print? Use the tools provided and stop obsessing over the edition markers on the cover.
 
The thread is clearly labelled CT only - the OP is asking about a fix to CT/CotI - should I recommend buying T5 or MgT to fix the problem?

I am not obsessing as you put it - I'm trying to help the OP as requested.
 
I played around with it a little more, and I think I'm going to throw up my hands and stick to the LBB1 careers for this campaign. I'm just not satisfied with my work implementing any of the excellent suggestions for how to solve it. :(

The good thing is, new Traveller players eventually turn into experienced ones (if I'm lucky) and then it will be easier to expand their horizons with more career and skill options.

Thanks agan for all the help, Mike. Knowing me, I'll probably gnaw at this a bit more next week, trying to do justice to your ideas, but at this point I'm ready to call it quits for the time being.
 
25 years after both editions fell out of print? Use the tools provided and stop obsessing over the edition markers on the cover.

:) I like trying to figure how to make things like this work. And, I don't really care for (re)buying more RPGs at this point in my life. I have a ton of stuff for CT that I've kept for all these years because I love the game, even though I hadn't played any RPG in more than a decade. It seemed to me that it would be nice to get up a campaign using some of those materials, but I didn't want to overwhelm newbies. That's how I got to this poiint...
 
The thread is clearly labelled CT only - the OP is asking about a fix to CT/CotI - should I recommend buying T5 or MgT to fix the problem?

I am not obsessing as you put it - I'm trying to help the OP as requested.

One of your recommendations was ALREADY DONE, and was published in MT. We're pointing out that that work has ALREADY BEEN DONE, and so, unless he's masochistically insistent upon "not looking outside CT", his goal can be met by adopting a total of 8 pages of MT. (6 of CGen, 2 of skill list)
 
Aha, I think I figured it out while we were watching our Saturday Night movie. :)

I remembered Mike's suggestion of adding a skill table to each, and wondered if the 'extra' skills from CotI would divide nicely into 6/6/6 (Army/Marines/Navy). So I took a look in Books 4 & 5 and came up with these extra skill lists:

Army
1. Demolitions
2. Instruction
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Recruiting
6. Survival

Marines
1. Battle Dress
2. Demolitions
3. Interrogation
4. Recon
5. Survival
6. Zero-G Combat

Navy
1. Carousing
2. Communications
3. Gravitics
4. Interrogation
5. Liaison
6. Ship Tactics

I think that just leaves Marines without Instruction and Recruiting vs. what they can get in Book 4, and leaves Navy without Instruction. But neither of those is any biggie. I wouldn't have included them for Army, but they can't get Battle Dress or Zero-G Combat in Book 4, so I needed something to fill in.

Anyway, that's my first cut at it. Not exactly as simple as I wanted to make it, because it still requires 4 books. But I think it's reasonable given that 2 of those book are only used for referencing skills. And, it doesn't require modifying the existing tables of various careers across Book 1 and Book 2. Minimal changes. And it'll work well with my swiped "enlistees roll for promo" and "special duty" rolls that yield additional skills (this gives at least 3 careers a larger skill pool to draw from so they don't necessarily end up with ludicrously high levels in the skills they have).

Anyone see any improvements to be made?
 
Back
Top