character development during play

[Gaming Glen]

This idea popped into my head while I was reading the regular Mongoose Traveller forum where someone was asking for better character improvement during play (for the new MG setting), and I thought I'd sound it out here first before proposing it there.

You have your skill level and tenth decimal point that ranges from .0 to .5, for example: Computer-2.1.

When you make a task check with that skill, roll a third die, designated in some manner different from the other two, and compare it to the decimal value. If that die is less than or equal to it (the whole number, not .1, you sillies ), then add an additional +1 to your roll. For example, Glen has to make a Computer task check, with modifiers for Int +2 (I wish) and Computer +2. He rolls 3 dice, the normal two dice come up 2 and 1, with +4 for modifiers equals 7. The third die comes up 1, which is less than or equal to the decimal portion of the skill so Glen gets to add an additional +1 which makes the modified roll total 8, success!

<insert some sort of progression to increase the decimal value, perhaps the official one instead of "tick" marks or some other progression indicator? Or, perhaps one successful roll of a skill during an adventure increases the decimal portion by 1?>

When the decimal portion reaches 6, increase the skill by one and reset the decimal portion to 0. For example, Leadership-1.5 would become Leadership-2.0.

Yeah, the wording needs some refining, but I wanted to get the gist of it written down before heading to bed to "sleep" on it some.

 

[CosmicGamer]

To me, it looks like you have two totally separate concepts here. Perhaps rethink and isolate for clarity.

When you make a task check with that skill, roll a third die, designated in some manner different from the other two, and compare it to the decimal value. If that die is less than or equal to it (the whole number, not .1, you sillies ), then add an additional +1 to your roll. For example, Glen has to make a Computer task check, with modifiers for Int +2 (I wish) and Computer +2. He rolls 3 dice, the normal two dice come up 2 and 1, with +4 for modifiers equals 7. The third die comes up 1, which is less than or equal to the decimal portion of the skill so Glen gets to add an additional +1 which makes the modified roll total 8, success!

This appears to me to have nothing to do with character development and is a 'bonus' mechanism that gives a random additional skill bonus (predominantly to higher skilled players?) to task rolls.

BTW, the whole number portion of a decimal number are those digits to the left of the decimal place. You say compare it to the decimal value and then say its the whole number. A bit confusing. If you'd like to clarify?

You have your skill level and tenth decimal point that ranges from .0 to .5, for example: Computer-2.1.

<insert some sort of progression to increase the decimal value, perhaps the official one instead of "tick" marks or some other progression indicator? Or, perhaps one successful roll of a skill during an adventure increases the decimal portion by 1?>

When the decimal portion reaches 6, increase the skill by one and reset the decimal portion to 0. For example, Leadership-1.5 would become Leadership-2.0.

Yeah, the wording needs some refining, but I wanted to get the gist of it written down before heading to bed to "sleep" on it some.

ok, yes, please get some sleep. At the moment, it looks to me like you are only proposing a method of recording progress?

 

[robject]

Sounds he hit two out of three points of a method for character improvement: assume there's a fractional value for skill levels. Task rolls thus add an extra D6, measured in tenths, to that fraction. If the fractional sum is > 1, then you get a +1 for that task roll.

Next, that fractional value can get bumped up, as a part of character improvement over the course of a character's adventuring life (I'm not sure exactly how that happens). When that value finally hits 0.6, round the skill level up to the next whole number. Voila, skill improvement.

 

[Gaming Glen]

This idea is incremental character improvement with the chance of actually being able to use what you recently have experienced or learned in a task check. People like to see their characters improve throughout a campaign and this is a way to indicate and use it; not just having unusable indicators, such as ticks marks or weeks of study, that in some year of the character's life would increase a skill.

My suggestion was to roll equal to or under the decimal value. Perhaps it would be preferred to use the task check mechanic on this as well, in that you add the decimal value to the third die and if it's 8+ then you get to add +1 to the actual task check; but, that means .1 would have no chance at all. I like my first idea better, it's one of the few times when rolling low is good*. Note: Come to think of it, .0 would have no chance at all either. That's why I went with actual skill success for increasing the decimal value.

Now when does this incremental skill level increase? Having at least one successful use of the skill in an adventure might be a little too fast for skill progression. And how do you apply training? To carry this another step , a hundredth decimal value can be kept for that purpose (I promise, no thousandth decimal value). This would replace the tick/training column or such indicator**. When that value, .x9 would increase, then increase x by 1 and reset the hundredth decimal value to 0. Increase the hundredth decimal value by 1 on a successful use of the skill once per adventure or for every <skill level> weeks of training. Special rule: When the skill reaches 3.14, the character, while having dessert, has a sudden revelation and the skill automatically goes to 3.15 .




* Is there ever a good time to roll low in Traveller, besides rolling damage due to friendly fire?

** Now that there's a percentile decimal value, an option could be to roll percentile die for the chance to add a +1 modifier to the task check and allowing the decimal value to range from .00 to .99. (Yeah, I hear you Vilani grumbling about new-fangled dice, saying it must be some Solomani trick. )

 

[robject]

* Is there ever a good time to roll low in Traveller, besides rolling damage due to friendly fire?

Rolling Law Level or under to avoid being harassed by the local authorities.

 

[aramis]

Rolling Law Level or under to avoid being harassed by the local authorities.

Uh, Rob, you roll LL or OVER to avoid harassment.

Higher law level, more harassment.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Thanks for clearing that first part up, makes more sense now.

Are you suggesting being able to train/incrementally level multiple skills at the same time?

I guess if you are using the system from the book, you do
x = # of weeks of training required/6
Every x weeks of training you add one tenth to the skill.

Am I getting it right?

 

[Icosahedron]

I'm uncomfortable with the maths of 0.6 = 1.0.

I like Robjects concept of 1D6+decimal >1 to succeed, except that there is no chance of success with decimals below 0.4.

Glen's original idea makes success a certainty with decimals over 0.6, so unless 0.6 = 1.0, that idea is equally problematic.

1D10 would solve the problem, but that's probably blasphemy hereabouts. :smirk:

Maybe 2D6-2 + decimal >= 1 is a way to go?

As for learning, maybe take a fixed number of weeks to gain a decimal (0.1 per 5 weeks = 50 weeks per skill level) but only count weeks in which a skill has been actively used or a training regimen has been adhered to. That way you include skill use without it becoming too powerful.

Just my Cr2.

 

[Gaming Glen]

I'm uncomfortable with the maths of 0.6 = 1.0.

Why? It's just a number. Don't be a slave to the numbers. Think of it as a base 6 "decimal" place.

Also, blame Traveller (or the designers) for using d6s, or rather, blame the designers of the d10 with not coming up with it sooner*.

I like Robjects concept of 1D6+decimal >1 to succeed, except that there is no chance of success with decimals below 0.4.

My way has less operations, just a comparison of the die roll to the decimal place. In other words, simple.

1D10 would solve the problem, but that's probably blasphemy hereabouts. :smirk:

Heretic! :devil:

Maybe 2D6-2 + decimal >= 1 is a way to go?

Again, a lot more operations, including rolling 2 extra dice instead of one die. And, now, which set of dice are for the actual task check and which are for the decimal check? I see arguments brewing about what pair of dice was called for what purpose.

As for learning, maybe take a fixed number of weeks to gain a decimal (0.1 per 5 weeks = 50 weeks per skill level) but only count weeks in which a skill has been actively used or a training regimen has been adhered to. That way you include skill use without it becoming too powerful.

I was suggesting that the number of weeks of training required to increase the decimal value by 1 was equal to the actual skill value, with a minimum of 1. So it would take 2 weeks to increase Computer-2.3 to Computer-2.4. This way the higher the skill the more study it takes to increase it.

I still think that's too fast. It would only take 6 weeks to raise a skill level 0 to 1, or from level 1 to 2. Which brings up another issue, level 0 to level 1 taking the same amount of time as going from level 1 to level 2. Perhaps skill level +1 in weeks of training to raise the decimal by one would be better. And, if being instructed by someone with Instruction skill, with the instructor having the required level in the skill being trained as per the rules, then remove the +1.


* Didn't one of the GDW crew say that they would have used the d10 for Traveller if the d10 was around when Traveller first came out?

 

[aramis]

Frank Chadwick used the d10 a lot.

 

[Commander Truestar]

This is how I handle Char Growth in MTU

Skill and Attribute Advancement:

In Classic Traveller, the assumption was that characters would not change substantially
during play, thus character advancement was a very slow process, and rather sketchy.
Here’s some rules to make character advancement a little nicer.

Learning by Doing:
If you use a skill during a session to particularly good effect, then you should remember
this; at the end of the situation. You would receive an experience tick for that skill.
Typically only one skill will get the tic per situation, (player’s choice if multiple skills
were used). If you don’t have a skill, you can be tutored by someone into an immediate
zero level for that skill. This requires a determination task on your part, and a tutor to
show you “how to use that vacuum suit”. Once the immediate situation passes, you
lose the zero level; however, if you used the skill successfully, then you can gain an
experience tick for the skill. This does not apply to the Jack Of All Trades skill.

Learning Through Practice:
You can elect to be practicing a skill desiring to improve it. You have to back this up
during role playing, by devoting time each game week to practice. At the end of a
game month, you can have one experience tick to assign to a skill that you’re
practicing, if you pass a Determination task

Learning Through Study:
You can elect to be studying a skill desiring to improve it. As with practice you have to
back this up during role playing. If you have an instructor to guide you, then you can
take one tick per week. If you don’t, then you can take one tick per game
month for a studied skill. If you pass a Determination task. You may not apply practice
or study to the Jack Of All Trades skill.

Making your skill improvement check:
If, at the end of a situation, you have ticks equal to the point cost of improving any of
your skills, you can elect to make an improvement check. An improvement check is of
Formidable difficulty, and you can use your DM for one appropriate characteristic on the
roll (which is most appropriate depends on the skill you’re trying to improve); you also
get to add the experience ticks you’ve accumulated for a skill as a positive DM to the
check.

If you make your check, then you lose all your ticks for that skill, but the skill increases in level by one. You also get one tick added to improving your Education stat.

If you fail your check, then you lose half your ticks (round in your favor, so if you started with three you end up with two ticks)
for that skill, and you get no increase.

Improving your Stats:
Your Education improves naturally over time as your skill levels increase(GM's Discretion).
Your Intelligence is innate and doesn’t improve.
Your Social Standing can improve through role playing(Gaining a reputation(good or bad),
rising in economic status and political power).

Physical characteristics can all improve by +1 by undergoing a conditioning regimen. The
bonus takes effect after months of this regimen, and you must account for the regimen
during role play. The regimen essentially uses a lot of the time you’d otherwise devote
to other activities, so it’s a bit difficult to do both at once(although some physical skills
and activities can be practiced in conjunction with a physical regimen).

If you skip the regimen for more than a month, you lose the benefit to your physical characteristics.

Let me know what you think?

Marc

 

[Icosahedron]

I like the simplicity of Glen's system, it lets you use fractional points in game and minimises all the messy bookkeeping.

I'm just not 60-per-hex happy with 'heximals' (think about it...).

 

[FreeTrav]

Marc: Please contact me in email - editor@freelancetraveller.com - I'd like to take this, clean it up, and print it in Freelance Traveller's house-rules section (Doing It My Way).

 

[Commander Truestar]

Marc: Please contact me in email - editor@freelancetraveller.com - I'd like to take this, clean it up, and print it in Freelance Traveller's house-rules section (Doing It My Way).

Really?

Ok

Marc

 

[Gaming Glen]

Isn't that the way the game does it now, ever since the CT-was-only-version-in-town days? With nebulous tick marks, and GM discretion, which viewed from a player's point of view, means never? Players want to see progression, no matter how small.

That's why I'm trying to convert this nebulous system into something a little more formal, and something that can have an immediate game effect for all that training and learning experience (i.e., an extra die roll that may affect the outcome). Those tick marks get added directly into the skill level and might just affect an outcome as soon as they are added, instead of waiting for a long time until you massed enough tick marks to increase the skill a whole level. My main concern is that making a formal system might make skill progression a bit faster than the background careers do.

Heh, just thought of those min-maxers that want to spend every non-adventuring minute of their character's life training (how boring)... make them roll a Carouse check to AVOID that week-long getaway on an island full of exotic beauties so they can continue training. And if they don't have Carouse, then take that -3 DM because they haven't learned WHEN to party and WHEN NOT to party. And if they do go to the getaway, they get a "tick mark" for their Carouse skill so not all is Lost. :devil:



Heximals. I like it.

 

[aramis]

CT had no learning from use rules.
CT Experience in a nutshell
Pick 1 gun, 1 blade, and 2 non weapon skills. Make a 2d for 8+ dedication roll, and if made, raise by 1 for four years. Then, make a second dedication for the following 4 years, to make it permanent.

Stat is permanent after 4 years.

Sabbatical: take 4 years off, gain a skill at level 2.

Not much "ticking" going on. Most GM's I know either
1) adopted the MT system backwards (max 1 tic per 6 mo, 2d+ticks+(Edu/5) for 15+ to go up)
2) adopted some form of tick system not unlike T4
3) simply picked the closest table for you and had you roll after 4 years.

 

[Icosahedron]

Isn't that the way the game does it now, ever since the CT-was-only-version-in-town days? With nebulous tick marks, and GM discretion, which viewed from a player's point of view, means never? Players want to see progression, no matter how small.

That's why I'm trying to convert this nebulous system into something a little more formal, and something that can have an immediate game effect for all that training and learning experience (i.e., an extra die roll that may affect the outcome). Those tick marks get added directly into the skill level and might just affect an outcome as soon as they are added, instead of waiting for a long time until you massed enough tick marks to increase the skill a whole level. My main concern is that making a formal system might make skill progression a bit faster than the background careers do.

Yep, that's what I like about this system. I might even get used to base 6 eventually. You just need to figure out improvement rate so it's not too empowering.
I seem to recall Supp4 discussing that on the CT forum sometime last year. Might be worth looking that up.

 

[Icosahedron]

Been thinking about this some more and I'm getting more comfortable with heximals - it's a D6 system after all...
How about if, once in two months, one skill (method of determination TBA) that has been used in game or has been the subject of training, has a chance of improvement. Roll over the current whole number skill level on 1D6 to succeed. Success adds one heximal point.
If my calculations are right, that should lead to a progress rate compatible with LBB4+ chargen in the early stages, LBB1 at higher levels, and provides a natural limit of Skill-6.

Edit: Oops, just realised this is the MGT thread, but IIRC MGT chargen provides skill gain rates somewhere between the LBB systems, so it should be fine. You can always tweak the rolls to monthly or quarterly...

Just need to figure how to pick which skill gets improved, now.