Character Retro Dancing

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
The other problem is the lack of cascade skills.

There are cascade skill all over CT. You just gotta read their descriptions to find them.

And, I read CT as encouraging to the GM to use cascade skills whenever he sees fit. Cascade skills and default skills. There are several "implied" cascades in CT as well.

 

[Straybow]

Not when they specify Pistol vs Autopistol and Rifle vs Assault Rifle as distinct skills.

"You mean you can point this thing and pull the trigger, just like a Revolver? I don't believe you. There's a trick to this new-fangled thing..."

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Not when they specify Pistol vs Autopistol and Rifle vs Assault Rifle as distinct skills.

"You mean you can point this thing and pull the trigger, just like a Revolver? I don't believe you. There's a trick to this new-fangled thing..."

Try using the Handgun or Pistol skill. They'll do what you need them to do.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Bill, S4,
That is some good role-playing. Who remembers The Fantasy Trip? And Prootwaddles?! They couldn't get above a 6 INT IIRC, which meant they couldn't learn any skills at all. That, combined with their propensity to wander about going "Prooot, prooot", made them "limited" characters. But there were people who played them....

 

[pendragonman]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Not when they specify Pistol vs Autopistol and Rifle vs Assault Rifle as distinct skills.

"You mean you can point this thing and pull the trigger, just like a Revolver? I don't believe you. There's a trick to this new-fangled thing..."

I have to disagree with you when you say something like rifle, assault rifle, pistol, autopistol, smg, etc are not technical skills. There is a need for knowledge in handling these weapons. For example:

You are the typical 1870's cowpuncher. Very handy with your Peacemaker and Springfield Rifle. Now, you find a M1911A1 45 cal Autopistol. Where is the safety? What IS a safety? How do you reload this piece of crap? Or, you happen along one of the ubiquitous AK-47s. Somehow the safety is off, and the selector is on rock and roll. You pull the trigger. Then muzzle climb kicks in and you shoot your horse dead. See the picture? Weapons fire is not just dex. Hitting the target after knowing how to work the weapon? Definitely dex based. Knowing how to work the weapon properly clearly requires some of the Int+Edu space.

Now, could said cowpuncher use them effectively as a cascade from his Springfield and Peacemaker skills? Sure, especially after a two minute demo on them

 

[BlackBat242]

For skills like that, I tend to use a combo...

The first full skill level requires one of your Int+Edu slots, as you are learning basic operation, care, field disassembly/reassembly, maintenance, cleaning, etc... but further ones don't, as they are simple refining of the dex-related hand-eye coordination/breath control/muscle control & memory, etc..

This is applicable to "simple" weapons like most "archaic" ones (blade combat), personal firearms, etc.

Larger, longer-ranged ones (especially crew-served weapons) may require Int+Edu slots throughout, as progressive levels require ballistics calculations, computer interface operations, use of accessories like counter-battery radar for your field gun (a level 3 skill), etc.


Brawling (bar-room brawl), Unarmed Combat (formalized self-defense & police-type techniques), or Martial Arts (Judo, Kung-Fu, etc) could also use the combo approach.

 

[Straybow]

[Supp4] Try using the Handgun or Pistol skill. They'll do what you need them to do.

LBB1 Chargen treated Pistol and Autopistol separately, and rifle vs carbine, etc. There are implied cascades, but nothing fleshed out. In terms of Int+Edu, all levels would apply.

[ChuckyH] Now, could said cowpuncher use them effectively as a cascade from his Springfield and Peacemaker skills? Sure after a two minute demo on them.

[BlackBat] The first full skill level requires one of your Int+Edu slots, as you are learning basic operation, care, field disassembly/reassembly, maintenance, cleaning, etc... but further ones don't, as they are simple refining of the dex-related hand-eye coordination/breath control/muscle control & memory, etc.

The 19th c. cowboy would use modern weapons at full skill. One does not need to use a skill slot for a two minute demo. Does it take a little more than two minutes to learn to strip and clean the weapon? Sure. Still not enough to take up a skill slot; that should be covered by Handgun-0 (though not all handgun-0 users know how).

Does it take an investment of time and effort to learn to shoot a pistol, a rifle, or a shotgun? Yes, but once you've learned them it "sticks" for decades. You pick up a gun and take ten minutes on the shooting range to knock the rust off. (I know a guy who hadn't shot in a couple years but was still able to put a smile on the silhouette at 25 feet.)

I would say knowing how to handle any firearm safely in a hunting or combat situation takes up a skill slot. That covers any and all basic handguns and long guns. Infantry support weapons would take a second. Maintaining level 3 or better in a weapon type requires regular practice and should take up a skill slot. Maybe for every level above 2. Below that it should not.

Another example:

Driving a vehicle is more than just stomping the pedals and turning the wheel. A monkey can do that. It isn't even level zero. Safely operating a motor vehicle (not endangering pedestrians, other vehicles, roadside fixtures) involves learning the rules of the road. That takes up an Int+Edu slot.

Young drivers have a much higher accident rate because they haven't learned how to pay attention to the traffic around them. In college towns there are problems with the driving skills of 3rd world students. Police officers are known to note on their ticket/accident reports DWO, DWM, etc (driving while oriental, mexican, etc).

We would describe that in Trav as Motor Vehicle-0. They're familiar with the rules, they just aren't that good at it.

To be fair, I'm certain that if I tried to drive in various Asian or 3rd world cities I'd have a hard time dodging donkeys while foolishly letting other drivers know my intensions by use of turn signals.

In the case of these characters, Supp4 is counting both Wheeled Vehicle-1 and ATV-1 against Int+Edu. Cascading should make one of them not count against the limit.

The Air/raft skill involves much more than just steering and altitude control (hard enough in 3D). If learning to watch traffic on a surface road system is difficult, imagine learning to watch traffic in 3D.

What are the traffic rules for a flying vehicle in the Downport vs in a typical major city with regular grav vehicle traffic or vs a rural area with none? How does one recognize marked traffic channels? How does one merge into them, or into street traffic to land?

That is definitely going to take up an Int+Edu slot. Level zero is only going to allow operation away from traffic, and with t/o, landing, altitude, and terrain following safeties engaged.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
LBB1 Chargen treated Pistol and Autopistol separately, and rifle vs carbine, etc. There are implied cascades, but nothing fleshed out. In terms of Int+Edu, all levels would apply.

Absolutely the Experience Limit would apply. But you can't look at CT as just LBB 1-3. The game is expanded in other works, and starting with LBB4, we see the weapons being combined as cascade skills. The Combat Rifleman skill. The Pistol skill. The Handgun skill.

I think the different versions of the skills are meant to be part of the rules set that way. It wasn't just an expansion to the rules(because single weapon skills are used later and throughout CT).

For example, the Pistol skill is introduced in Book 4, allowing characters to use both revolvers and autopistols using the same skill.


In Book 5, the Handgun skill makes it on the scene, which includes use of revolvers, autopistols, and snub pistols.

GMs should infer from that that cascade skill (when making your own) depends on the type of career the character is exposed to.

Makes sense to me.

Under Book 4, Marine and Army characters won't gain expertise in the snub pistol (even though the weapon is introduced in that book) unless they are experienced with Zero-G weapons. A Marine wouldn't train with a snub pistol unless he was trained with Zero-G weapons (which is why, in Book 4, Marines and Army characters can only get expertise with a snub pistol via the Zero-G weapons skill).

When Book 5 came along, dealing with Naval personnel, it seemed logical that some Naval troopers might carry a snub pistol. So, a new skill was created--the Handgun skill--to include snub pistols.

See...it depends on character background.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Straybow:
LBB1 Chargen treated Pistol and Autopistol separately, and rifle vs carbine, etc. There are implied cascades, but nothing fleshed out. In terms of Int+Edu, all levels would apply.

Absolutely the Experience Limit would apply. But you can't look at CT as just LBB 1-3.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, if you view CT as just LBB1-3, you get no Int+Edu limit. IIRC, it comes in LBB5 (High Guard). And, it comes as a result of the advanced chargen systems, that start loading up a character with huge quantities of skills....

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
/SNIP of a really good discussion/
See...it depends on character background.

This whole thread addresses one of the biggest problems with Traveller: How do you model a system that wants to be seen as "hard science" and yet be playable (without supercomputers)? So, the original LBBs left a lot to the imagination. The later LBBs tried to go deeper into a realistic simulation, and ended up capping skills because of it.

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
My answer to that, though, is that the Experience Limit is more of a limit needed for game mechanic reasons on a set of mechanics based on 2D.

Every time we start to argue about the skills/cascades (especially Gun Combat for some reason ), we're really arguing about how to model our RL experiences. Chucky is right that someone with no experience (even from TV) with magazine-based weapons would be stumped by an AK-47 (at minimum, after he ran out of ammo). An even better example, though would be a clip-loaded weapon! How many of you have ever loaded one?

But, a lot of that would depend on TL of a homeworld, TL in their career, whether they have a natural affinity for weapons, etc. IOW, it would depend on a good referee knowing the character and his background, and talking with the player about it.

I really don't like the Int+Edu limit, either, and would like to find a solid mechanism for doing what Straybow says:

Originally posted by Straybow:
I'm saying that the Int+Edu limit should only apply to skills in a way that makes sense. Things that actually take intellectual effort to learn, practice, and perfect.

(And, given the number of people who make it to work each day, in their automobiles, around here, Vehicle isn't one of those.

)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Actually, if you view CT as just LBB1-3, you get no Int+Edu limit. IIRC, it comes in LBB5 (High Guard). And, it comes as a result of the advanced chargen systems, that start loading up a character with huge quantities of skills....

Almost correct. Maximum skills is not mentioned in Book 1, but it is in both Starter Traveller and The Traveller Book.

Depends on which basic rules you use--but you don't need "advanced" rules in Book 4+ to find the rule.

This whole thread addresses one of the biggest problems with Traveller: How do you model a system that wants to be seen as "hard science" and yet be playable (without supercomputers)?

And I've marveled, many times, at how well it captures what it captures.

Like the combat system. I've modded it, sure, to my own tastes. But, the CT combat system, as is, is a work of art. It actually walks the line between realism (you're killed or seriously wounded if you're shot) and game play (let's all have a bunch of gunfights in our games!).

Vanilla CT does that remarkably well, balancing the two.

Every time we start to argue about the skills/cascades (especially Gun Combat for some reason ), we're really arguing about how to model our RL experiences.

Who's arguing? I'm just discussing Traveller. You?

Chucky is right that someone with no experience (even from TV) with magazine-based weapons would be stumped by an AK-47 (at minimum, after he ran out of ammo).

In looking through JTAS the other night, I saw a system for rolling up character homeworlds. Different careers had different requirements on the homeworld, or the career wasn't available. Belters needed a belt in the system. Merchants needed a Class C+ starport. That sort of thing.

Joe Fugate (from DGP, who wrote MT) wrote the article (and we can see the he incorporated his homeworld thoughts into MT, the same way he did the UTP).

For the Army? The homeworld requirement was TL 6+.

At first, I thought, "Really? Heck, there were armies back in the Roman times. Why TL 6+?"

Then, I remembered Chucky's discussion with you. THAT'S why TL 6. So that weapons like the AK-47 can be understood and easily used.

I doubt a person from an Army of a TL 4 world would "get it" as quickly as someone from a TL 7 world.

I really don't like the Int+Edu limit, either, and would like to find a solid mechanism for doing what Straybow says:

I didn't like it for the longest time. I found I was used to other games where characters got all these honkin' skills. CT characters just didn't feel like a fully realized character without a sheet full of skills.

That's why I would mod CharGen so that my players could get more skills.

Today, I've learned the error of my ways (2D6 mechanically). But, I've also learned to embrace the Experience Limit. It makes a lot of sense to me on a lot of levels (not just mechanically).

The thought that a person's total expertise can be summed up by the sum of his Intelligence and his Education, I think, is brilliant. It's just like the brillance in having this life in combat summed up by the sum of his physical characteristics.

It's really pretty elegant.

And, I like what Marc says about people loosing expertise. He's right. People do get worse at things if they don't practice. If I didn't type as much as I do, I'd certainly lose a skill level in typing speed after enough time as passed (physical thing). And, everytime I stop playing Traveller for a long period of time (years), I remember the basics but sometimes forget small details that I reaquaint myself with when I start playing again (mental thing).

The thought that a skill can decrease to make room for a new skill, or an increase in an old skill, has a certain amount of elegance to it as well.

Don't forget, that Marc writes rules for increasing ones EDU (although it can't be raised higher than INT).

Originally posted by Straybow:
I'm saying that the Int+Edu limit should only apply to skills in a way that makes sense.

But, as I note above, it does make sense. To me. To other CT players.

If you disagree, mod it, brother, mod it.

 

[Gruffty]

I use the INT+EDU max skills thingy like this:

A character can have a maximum number of skills equal to INT+EDU.....

But each skill can be of any level (but see below).

So:

Ed Sample: UPP: 777987
INT+EDU = 17

Ed can have 17 skills:

1. Air/Raft
2. Combat Rifleman
3. Gravitics
4. Blade
5. Electronics
6. Mechanical
7. Computer
8. Medical
9. Instruction
10. Recruiting
11. Communications
12. Gambling
13. Administration
14. Forgery
15. Bribery
16. Auto Pistol
17. Demolitions

....which can all be at any levels:

1. Air/Raft-2
2. Combat Rifleman-3
3. Gravitics-1
4. Blade-2
5. Electronics-1
6. Mechanical-2
7. Computer-1
8. Medical-1
9. Instruction-1
10. Recruiting-1
11. Communications-1
12. Gambling-1
13. Administration-1
14. Forgery-1
15. Bribery-1
16. Auto Pistol-2
17. Demolitions-1

....I also say that the total number of skill levels cannot exceed INT+EDU*2. This allows for an average of level-2 in skills, with the opportunity to have a few higher skill levels with the rest being lower (level-1) skills. Level-0 skills aren't included in my rules.

 

[Gruffty]

So, Ed Sample can have a maximum of 17 skills, across which he is allowed a maximum total of 34 skill levels.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Gruffty:
A character can have a maximum number of skills equal to INT+EDU.....

But each skill can be of any level.

Wow. In the past, I would have agreed with you. But, now, knowing what I do about 2D mechanics, I'd worry that you've defeated the purpose of the Experience Limit by running the rule that way.

I mean, if a character with INT-7 EDU-5 can have 12 skills, no matter the level...

Pilot-4
Navigator-1
Steward-2
Engineer-3
Gunner-3
AutoPistol-2
SMG-3
Communications-1
Mechanical-2
Electronics-1
JOT-3
Medical-2

In anything this character does, he'll be overpowering.

For example, he needs an 8+ to hit with his SMG. SMGs are typically used for Short Range encounters. He gets +3 for skill and +3 for range. That's an automatic hit, and I haven't added in DMs for armor or high DEX. If he does have DEX-9+, he gets another +2.

On full, auto, he gets two shots.

Adding in DMs for armor, the only type he doesn't automatically hit is Cloth and Combat armor, but even that's not that hard with the two shots. He'll roll 5+ to-hit for the Cloth and 7+ to-hit for the Combat armor, and that if he doesn't get the +2 for high DEX (then it's Cloth at 3+ and Combat armor at 5+). All other types of armor, he hits automatically.

Now, this is fine if a character only has one skill like this. The Experience Limit keeps that character from getting too many skills like this (so that he's not a bad-ass in too many areas).

If you go your route, I fear that the skill limit you have is not really "limiting" anything. I'd wager there's no difference if you use the skill limit in your game, or if you didn't use it.

How many skills, do you think, do you have to pair back by using his method? I bet's it rare that a character reaches his limit.

Just a suggestion, but I would seriously consider the Experience Limit as written. I went through the same thoughts you are now having, and the conclusion is that the Experience Limit is there for a reason--an important reason.

 

[Gruffty]

Originally posted by S4:
if a character with INT-7 EDU-5 can have 12 skills, no matter the level...

Pilot-4
Navigator-1
Steward-2
Engineer-3
Gunner-3
AutoPistol-2
SMG-3
Communications-1
Mechanical-2
Electronics-1
JOT-3
Medical-2

In anything this character does, he'll be overpowering.

....and that's where my INT+EDU*2 maximum total skill levels comes in.

Your example character has 12 skills....

...but...

it has a total of 27 skill levels. Under my rules, he's 3 skill levels over his maximum total skill levels.

However, having said that, I agree that a limit of some description is needed; maybe I should re-think the INT+EDU*2 part, as that's where the levels seem to get out of control.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Gruffty:
....and that's where my INT+EDU*2 maximum total skill levels comes in.

Your example character has 12 skills....

...but...

it has a total of 27 skill levels. Under my rules, he's 3 skill levels over his maximum total skill levels.

However, having said that, I agree that a limit of some description is needed; maybe I should re-think the INT+EDU*2 part, as that's where the levels seem to get out of control.

Believe me, I do know where you're coming from. We want to look at our character sheets and feel like we're looking at a character. We look down and see:

Rifle-2
Vacc Suit-1
Streetwise-1

And, we don't feel like we've got a real character there. Maybe half a character.

The one thing I realized was that Classic Traveller characters can do many things without skills.

For example, they can pick up any weapon in Book 1 and use it without penalty. They just don't get the "bonus" of a +1DM or more.

I had to remember that CT skills are typically very broad in scope. I also had to remember that some skills give a greater benefit per skill level than other skills. For example, many Vacc Suit throws provide for a +2DM or a +4DM per level of skill.

That, alone, makes the character above more powerful than he looks on paper.

It took me a while to realize, but going with the Experience Limit really is a good thing to do. That's why I retro-danced those three characters in my campaign (not because I wanted to take anything away from the players).

 

[Straybow]

Correct on that. But I don't recall LBB1 giving that many skills at level 0.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
But I don't recall LBB1 giving that many skills at level 0.

Yep, even LBB1 gives all characters Skill-0 with every weapon in LBB1.

 

[Straybow]

Why do I have my doubts that typical Trav character would have the faintest idea how to use a halberd?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Why do I have my doubts that typical Trav character would have the faintest idea how to use a halberd?

At Skill-0?

Heck, I don't know anything about a halberd, but if you came after me, I'd sure swing that sucker and try to poke you with it.

I wouldn't get any bonuses to-hit, but I bet it would be pretty easy to damage you with it.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Almost correct. Maximum skills is not mentioned in Book 1, but it is in both Starter Traveller and The Traveller Book.

Well, that wouldn't be LBB1-3, now would it? You radical, you...

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Who's arguing? I'm just discussing Traveller. You?

No, no. No arguing from me. Just very emphatic discussions, don't you know....

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
For the Army? The homeworld requirement was TL 6+.

At first, I thought, "Really? Heck, there were armies back in the Roman times. Why TL 6+?"

Then, I remembered Chucky's discussion with you. THAT'S why TL 6. So that weapons like the AK-47 can be understood and easily used.

I doubt a person from an Army of a TL 4 world would "get it" as quickly as someone from a TL 7 world.

Very good point.

And, when I was saying that I don't like the INT+EDU limit, I didn't mean throw it out altogether. I'm looking at tossing about Skill-0s liberally to counteract part of it. I may even require the first skill level earned to be a zero. And, of course, the zeros wouldn't count toward the limit....