Character Retro Dancing

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, and halberds? I don't think you'd want to swing it at me. I'd take it away and spank you with it for playing with sharp objects.

Mostly, I think this is dealt with by having an intelligent referee. "Dude, you come from a TL15 arcology. You can't even spell halberd, much less use one. You could swing it like a baseball bat, but you don't know what one of those is, either."

Alternatively, "Your homeworld has a noble contingent with an honorary household guard that uses archaic weapons for show. You have an idea what that large can opener is, and how to use it. Careful not to cut yourself."

 

[weasel fierce]

well, the guys a hero. He'll make something up

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by weasel fierce:
well, the guys a hero. He'll make something up

Heh.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
I'm looking at tossing about Skill-0s liberally to counteract part of it. I may even require the first skill level earned to be a zero. And, of course, the zeros wouldn't count toward the limit....

This is what I do. And, it's supported in CT canon. If any character would logical have a skill, I'll typically give it to them at Skill-0.

For example, if a character is from a homeworld that is an asteroid belt, I'll just give him Vacc Suit-0.

If a character is from a TL 7 world, with a high pop, and a std atmo, I'll probably give him Wheeled Vehicle-0. If in doubt (or I just want to "be that way") I may give the character a roll to see if he has the Skill-0 skill. In this case, I may say, "Roll EDU or less on 2D to have Wheeled Vehicle-0."

The other thing I do is make sure skills are broad by defintion. And, I use logical cascade skills, sometimes at the same level, and sometimes at one or two levels lower.

So, if a character has AutoRifle-3, I don't see a problem if he picks up a Gauss Rifle and uses it at the same skill level. Or, if that character picks up a shotgun, I'll let him use it at one level lower (effectively Shotgun-2). If a skill is a bit more distantly related, I'll use the minus two cascade, so if this character picks up a AutoPistol, he can use it as if he had AutoPistol-1.

I find that judging character skills like this both supported in canon and makes a CT character with a few skills very playable because he's actually skilled in many areas even though he's only got three skills on the character sheet.

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Originally posted by Straybow:
Why do I have my doubts that typical Trav character would have the faintest idea how to use a halberd?

At Skill-0?

Heck, I don't know anything about a halberd, but if you came after me, I'd sure swing that sucker and try to poke you with it.

I wouldn't get any bonuses to-hit, but I bet it would be pretty easy to damage you with it.

But then what is No Skill? Skill-0 should only be for things the character's homeworld and background reasonably provide. I don't think any post 19th century person will have skill-0 in hand weapons. We just don't do that.

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
And, when I was saying that I don't like the INT+EDU limit, I didn't mean throw it out altogether. I'm looking at tossing about Skill-0s liberally to counteract part of it. I may even require the first skill level earned to be a zero. And, of course, the zeros wouldn't count toward the limit.

Yes, if you were giving 3-4 rolls per term then starting at zero makes sense. I'd give the player an option, if rolling a skill that is their MOS or central to their assignment, to take level 1 in place of the next roll.

So, that Dexter guy would become:
Combat Rifleman-1, Wheeled Vehicle-0, Blade-4, SMG-2, Gambling-5, Vacc Suit-1, Brawling-3, Forgery-0, Bribery-4, Medical-3, Engineering-0, Legal-0, Electronics-1, ATV-0, Grav Vehicle-2, Mechanical-2, Steward-1, Streetwise-1, Gunnery-0, Pilot-0.

That drops 11 skill levels off the bat. If any of those level-0 skills were MOS or whatever he'd have a choice to move a level from one of the others to the core job skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Straybow:
I don't think any post 19th century person will have skill-0 in hand weapons. We just don't do that.

If a knife was lying on a table, and someone broke into your house, with that being the only weapon within reach, would you grab the knife or fight with your bare hands?

Skill-0 means a basic familiarity with the skill. I've never before fought with a sword in my life, but if I had to use one, I understand that you've got to swing it hard and use it to block.

Now, I wouldn't be any good at it, but I've got a basic familiarity with it. I know how to pick it up, where to grip it, and how to swing it.

That's Skill-0.

Now, on the other hand, take me and give me a paper written in Russian. I have no Liguistics skill. Not even at Skill-0. I couldn't begin to translate the page for you. It's just a bunch of scratches to me.

So, I don't have a default skill of Skill-0 in Russian or Liguistics.

That's the difference in Skill-0 and no skill at all. And, no skill at all is subject to a negative DM on throws (is it a -4 DM?).

 

[BlackBat242]

7 copies of the same post?

Your frustration is showing.

I see you fixed it


Straybow quote: "I don't think any post 19th century person will have skill-0 in hand weapons. We just don't do that."

I know a large number of people with good skills with swords (especially rapier, foil, & epee), axes, and the like.

Just go to any SCA event, any Mountain Man rendezvous, or Ren-Faire to see them in action... often with weapons they made themselves!

Any College campus is likely to have a fencing team, and what logger doesn't have at least Axe-2?

What is a professional carpenter's Hammer skill? Think he couldn't use it effectively as a weapon?


Many of the people mentioned earlier (except the loggers and carpenters) are likely to have (or be studying for) high-tech jobs, and many have advanced degrees... they learn "archaic" weapons skills as a "change-of-pace" stress-reliever.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BlackBat242:
7 copies of the same post?

Your frustration is showing.

I see you fixed it

Gawd, you can say that again.

I want to finish putting up my sensor rules, but, crap, it's such an effort.

 

[BlackBat242]

Agreed... I can't begin to count how many times recently I have seen one of these two messages when on this board (and ONLY on this board):

Software error:
Can't EXlock '/data/12/1/110/144/1110796/user/1168419/htdocs/CotI/Discuss/cache-72JK73ME/lock/global.cgi'. The operating system has run out of file locks to give me. Please ask the administrator to contact the web hosting provider. The exact error returned by the operating system is: No locks available
For help, please send mail to the webmaster ([no address given]), giving this error message and the time and date of the error.

Or:

Accelerator Error:
Oops, I can't get a flock on the counter file.


I suppose that that is an abbreviation for "file lock", but I have to say it...


What the flock is going on here?

 

[hunter]

I'm currently arguing with our provider about the problem.

Hunter

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Originally posted by Straybow:
I don't think any post 19th century person will have skill-0 in hand weapons. We just don't do that.

If a knife was lying on a table, and someone broke into your house...

Skill-0 means a basic familiarity with the skill. I've never before fought with a sword in my life, but if I had to use one, I understand that you've got to swing it hard and use it to block.

Now, I wouldn't be any good at it, but I've got a basic familiarity with it. I know how to pick it up, where to grip it, and how to swing it.

That's Skill-0.

...And, no skill at all is subject to a negative DM on throws (is it a -4 DM?).

I don't recall what the penalty is for no skill with a combat weapon. I can't find my LBBs.

Watch a crime drama and what true fact do they usually bring up when they have a knife victim? Using a knife often results in the wielder cutting him/her self. Do you know how to use that kitchen knife without hurting yourself?

Now try that with a sharp 3-foot blade around, in close quarters, against an attacker and you might find some minuses applied to your metaphorical attack roll.

Now imagine the attacker is somebody similarly armed and competent. No expert, just had basic training, maybe a little combat experience with it, and still has all his fingers. Knife-0 or sword-0, in other words. Don't you think you'd have minuses in comparison? Of course.

Knife-1 or Sword-1 is someone more than just competent, it is someone with considerable skill.

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by BlackBat242:
I know a large number of people with good skills with swords (especially rapier, foil, & epee), axes, and the like.

...Any College campus is likely to have a fencing team, and what logger doesn't have at least Axe-2?

Ah, the fencing team; all twelve of them. Out of a student body of maybe 10k? Loggers, on the other hand, use chainsaws rather than axes. Besides, chopping a stationary piece of wood isn't comparable to combat.

RPG interests? Maybe combat experience? You likely know more people familiar with hand weapons than the average guy.

All these are people who have skill-0 (or better) because they made an effort to get it. The other 95% (or more) of the population don't. Even in the military, with 85% of them being noncombatants who've forgotten boot camp bayonet drill.

One can make the military different IYTU, maybe training a little with archaic weapons due to some tradition. But that's only four professions out of however many.

 

[BlackBat242]

True... The point I was trying (murkily) to make, both to you and the lovers of "0-level in most skills" is that there are a lot of skills than don't match someone's tech level, but which they might have training in... and that training of some sort is essential for even a skill level of 0.

Maybe not much training, and informally received, but some.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh yeah, TL isn't the only arbiter of skill familiarity, to be sure. However, I don't plan on dropping Halberd-0 on any characters unless there's a good reason (i.e., a well-fleshed out background). One of the issues I'm having is with allowing for combat skills for the occasional plain-Jane citizen without it being a skill that every Ma&Pa grocery owner is going to have.

But, I think a few skill-0s based on background is handy. And, I plan on figuring out how to administer those "MOS" skills to provide some focus....

 

[pendragonman]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
One of the issues I'm having is with allowing for combat skills for the occasional plain-Jane citizen without it being a skill that every Ma&Pa grocery owner is going to have.

Ma&Pa don't know halberd? Wow, you'd think we were talking about a tech-based space game or something...

I agree. Zero-level should definitely NOT be given in every skill imaginable. A few for background or to show an initial study in the area, but no more.

IMTU, I use a negative one DM on any area the character has no skill. This negative is only canceled by achieving level zero in the skill. Further, as characters progress throughout the game, they must take a skill at level zero before they can improve it to level one, and that can not be the same experience award session.

I allow an awarded skill point to either raise on skill one point or to "buy" three skills at level zero. The skills either raised or bought at zero must be relavent in the scenario just completed. Skill points can also be saved to be used as "luck" points later on. One skill point giving 2 "luck" points. Luck points being able to reroll a fantastic failure or to save the character from a disasterous consequence (you know, like instant death). They don't come away completely clean from the use, but they do get away. Hey, they are heros, right?

Example:

Bill Sample (Ed's twin) had a heck of a night. He completed the adventure that occured on a tech 3 planet, and was RD'd sooo well he earned two skill points this session. He uses one skill point to take Halberd zero, glaive zero, and and battleaxe zero (there was a large amount of combat on this world). He uses the other one to raise his engineering skill (the reason he was even on this berg was his ship broke down).

Bill could have taken an up in engineering and saved the other for 2 luck points.

 

[weasel fierce]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Oh yeah, TL isn't the only arbiter of skill familiarity, to be sure. However, I don't plan on dropping Halberd-0 on any characters unless there's a good reason (i.e., a well-fleshed out background). One of the issues I'm having is with allowing for combat skills for the occasional plain-Jane citizen without it being a skill that every Ma&Pa grocery owner is going to have.

Well, every plain jane citizen doesnt have 0 level skills. Its only player characters. Which, in your campaign, means like...5 dudes in a rust bucket of a ship trying to find a way to come up with 13.000 credits by Monday

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
If a knife was lying on a table, and someone broke into your house, with that being the only weapon within reach, would you grab the knife or fight with your bare hands?

Skill-0 means a basic familiarity with the skill. I've never before fought with a sword in my life, but if I had to use one, I understand that you've got to swing it hard and use it to block.

Now, I wouldn't be any good at it, but I've got a basic familiarity with it. I know how to pick it up, where to grip it, and how to swing it.

That's Skill-0.
...

I would argue that the overwhelming majority of people (98% or higher) do not qualify for even Blade-0, as most do not know the basics of how to properly use a (sharp) kitchen knife. If they did, the ginsu-style knife manufacturers would go out of business. Those individuals who do know how to correctly employ a kitchen knife (for slicing, chopping, mincing, etc.) have likely had some training and/or experience in the culinary arts (Steward, in Traveller terms).

Being able to properly identify and heft a weapon does not constitute sufficient familiarity for Weapon-0 skill, IMO. One would have to have had at least some basic instruction or limited experience with such a weapon to be considered Skill Level-0 expertise. Otherwise, why bother with a level of 0 at all?

IMTU Blade-0 (for example) would indicate that an individual had at least been shown how to properly handle and use a long knife, and has had some limited experience in doing just that, but has not had the practical experience which would be conferred from a hand-to-hand combat training course or from actual street knife-fighting experience.

Getting back to your home invasion example: lacking sufficient combat background with edged weaponry, the homeowner would be at a distinct disadvantage, skill-wise. On the other hand, (s)he might exhibit the combat drug effect DM associated with the adrenaline surge accompanying righteous indignation (rage), should the ref allow it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Arthur hault-Denger:
I would argue that the overwhelming majority of people (98% or higher) do not qualify for even Blade-0, as most do not know the basics of how to properly use a (sharp) kitchen knife.

Actually, Canon supports your statement.

In Book 1, all characters are given expertise at Skill-0 with every weapon listed in the book.

But, those are all characters with careers who would have at least some working knowledge with all sorts of weapons: Navy/Marines/Army (military personnel); Merchants (barfights); Scouts (nature of the job); Other (criminals).

Check out Supplement 4, CotI. Doctors are not elligible for the rule. They use weapons with the unskilled penalty if they have no skill with a weapon. I remember another career is like this too (Bureaucrats?).

What does that say?

Well, it says that Skill-0 depends on a characters background. If a character would logically have a default skill in an area, then give it to him. (This is supported in canon as well.) If there's no reason for him to a basic understanding of the skill, then he cannot have it at Skill-0.

There are plenty of examples in CT where characters are just given Skill-0 in some skill or other.

My rule of thumb is: If the character's background matches, then give him the Skill-0 (or at least give him a roll to have the Skill-0). If the skill is something that requires specific training (Medical, Pilot, Engineering, Navigation, etc), then I will likely not give the character Skill-0 in the area unless his background strongly suggest the character would have the skill.

 

[Arthur Denger]

That is sound reasoning. In pre-Mercenary days, when skills of any level were worth their weight in iridium, 0 level in a skill was highly valued. IIRC, no level of JoT skill could ever be considered equal to level 0 in any specific skill.