Chrysanthemums and Fer-de-Lances

[rancke]

Here's a question for you TCS and HG experts: How good are the designs for the Chrysanthemum and the Fer-de-Lance? They're both from around 1000, so they're among the earliest TL15 designs. Is is plausible that the IN has kept on building them for over a century instead of replacing them with a different design?


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

Why replace a trusted design? Maybe now they're just building the Fer-de-Lance-G Block 6 and the Chrysanthemum-C Block 8? If the design was really solid, they may have just upgraded what they had, maybe changed some design elements to take advantages of new concepts but kept the design significantly intact

 

[rancke]

Why replace a trusted design?

No reason. If it is a trusted design. Is it? That's what I'm asking. I'm just being curious.


Hans

 

[robject]

When porting them to T5, I found it difficult to justify there being two designs for what felt like essentially the same basic ship with different add-ons. At least it felt almost that way.

 

[rancke]

When porting them to T5, I found it difficult to justify there being two designs for what felt like essentially the same basic ship with different add-ons. At least it felt almost that way.

Perhaps the different add-ons fit them for different roles?


Hans

 

[robject]

Perhaps the different add-ons fit them for different roles?


Hans

That's almost exactly what I was seeing, and it was exactly what I was thinking. Unless there's a fundamental design difference -- maybe hull configuration, for example -- then these are two roles from a single class.

But that's just from a design point of view. In-game there can be as many separate 1000 ton destroyer classes with identical stats as desired.

 

[Jame]

Why replace a trusted design? Maybe now they're just building the Fer-de-Lance-G Block 6 and the Chrysanthemum-C Block 8? If the design was really solid, they may have just upgraded what they had, maybe changed some design elements to take advantages of new concepts but kept the design significantly intact

This is what I figure happened. Then again, I always liked the Chryssies.
So most likely, they just have upgraded TL-15 stuff.

And probably also TL-10, -11 and -12 versions too for Colonial navies.

 

[robject]

And probably also TL-10, -11 and -12 versions too for Colonial navies.

Colonial navies need some love. I haven't seen a lot of text on them other than describing them in high-level generalities, except for the odd bit of design notes for some starships.

 

[rancke]

This is what I figure happened. Then again, I always liked the Chryssies.
So most likely, they just have upgraded TL-15 stuff.

Most likely they have simply been built in several batches in the course of the 11th Century.

And probably also TL-10, -11 and -12 versions too for Colonial navies.

A design upgraded to a different tech level (as opposed to a ship with some components replaced) would be a different class.

Colonial navies need some love. I haven't seen a lot of text on them other than describing them in high-level generalities, except for the odd bit of design notes for some starships.

GT did GTL9, 10, 11, and 12 versions of the patrol ship. Also, IIRC, some other ship types in different TL versions.


Hans

 

[martletsquire]

The T20 Traveller's Aide #07 Fighting Ships by QLI, set around Imperial Year 993, states that the Chrysanthemums were built at TL14 first starting around 950, and are being updated to higher tech levels. An actual quote from the writeup is "Designed with ease of upgrade in mind, it seems likely
that the Chrysanthemum will be in service for many decades to come." and that it is "starman friendly".

The Fer-de-Lance was brought into production due to losses in escorts during war-fighting, and is a flawed design, all weapon, no defense, and is a flawed design. The quote is "Overall, the Fer-De-Lance is a half-baked design that suffers from too many compromises and too short a development
period. However, the Imperial Navy has invested a great deal in these ships and placed huge orders as soon as the designs
were ready. Vessels are sent to the front as fast as they come off the ways. With so many on order or in service, it is likely that
those that survive will be refitted to remove the worst of their defects and that the class will eventually emerge as something
worth keeping in service." All I can say on that is, wow.

Fast forward to Supplement 09 and those designs are still being built, and the Fer-de-Lance is still a 2nd class design.

It seems to make no sense, until you factor in the politics and money involved in any military program.

For me, the Chrysies are much more visually appealing, while the Ferdies look slapped together.

 

[rancke]

The T20 Traveller's Aide #07 Fighting Ships by QLI, set around Imperial Year 993, states that the Chrysanthemums were built at TL14 first starting around 950, and are being updated to higher tech levels.

Which is highly unlikely. You can't update a TL14 ship to TL15 by replacing a few peripheals. You may argue that the hull itself is the same (although the rules don't agree) since the armor weight is the same. But you have to replace ALL the TL14 components with TL15 components. Otherwise it remains a TL14 design. That's very likely going to cost more than building new ships would.

An actual quote from the writeup is "Designed with ease of upgrade in mind, it seems likely that the Chrysanthemum will be in service for many decades to come." and that it is "starman friendly".

Again this doesn't actually make sense. If you build a TL14 ship in 993 and upgrade it to TL15 in 1000 (assuming for purposes of argument that doing so is a) possible and b) makes sense), it is still going to be more than a century old in 1107. And if you build a new batch in (say) 1020, that batch would be TL15 from the start, wouldn't it? What would be the sense of building another batch of TL14 ships and the upgrading them?

The Fer-de-Lance was brought into production due to losses in escorts during war-fighting, and is a flawed design, all weapon, no defense. The quote is "Overall, the Fer-De-Lance is a half-baked design that suffers from too many compromises and too short a development period. However, the Imperial Navy has invested a great deal in these ships and placed huge orders as soon as the designs were ready. Vessels are sent to the front as fast as they come off the ways. With so many on order or in service, it is likely that
those that survive will be refitted to remove the worst of their defects and that the class will eventually emerge as something worth keeping in service." All I can say on that is, wow.

All I can say is that the Quicklink writers went though some extraordinary contortions just to be able to reuse a couple of old designs instead of coming up with a TL14 design or two of their own. I think that was a really big mistake; the attempt to retrofit those ships to 993 was an epic fail and one that I'm quite prepared to ignore, at least until and unless Marc Miller or one of his minions says otherwise.

Fast forward to Supplement 09 and those designs are still being built, and the Fer-de-Lance is still a 2nd class design.

The problem right there is that it's not really a fast forward. Supp 9 is the original information. Anyway, those alleged TL14 designs are NOT still being built; if anything is being built in 1107, it's TL15 designs. It says so right in Supp 9: the Chrysanthemum and the Fer-de-Lance are TL15 designs, which makes TA07's information contradictory.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

... You may argue that the hull itself is the same (although the rules don't agree) ...

Clarify please. Is that a T20 thing?

 

[rancke]

Clarify please. Is that a T20 thing?

It's an HG thing.

"The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed." [HG:20]​

In other words, a hull built at a TL14 shipyard is a TL14 hull and a hull built at a TL 15 shipyard is a TL15 hull. Even if you can't point out the difference, there is one.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

It's an HG thing.

"The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed." [HG:20]​

In other words, a hull built at a TL14 shipyard is a TL14 hull and a hull built at a TL 15 shipyard is a TL15 hull. Even if you can't point out the difference, there is one.


Hans

That sounds a bit like the difference between a po-tai-to and a po-tah-to. The building shipyard determines what it's stuffed with, but it's still ultimately Solanum Tuberosum.

 

[rancke]

That sounds a bit like the difference between a po-tai-to and a po-tah-to. The building shipyard determines what it's stuffed with, but it's still ultimately Solanum Tuberosum.

I said it was a rules thing. One very important difference between a TL14 hull and a TL15 hull according to the rules is that you can stuff TL15 components into a TL15 hull and not into a TL14 hull. It's not just about the volume of the armor.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

TCS allows you to refit with higher TL drives and weapons etc.

Note that this is what was done to the AHL - weapon wise at least.

 

[rancke]

TCS allows you to refit with higher TL drives and weapons etc.

Conflicting rules. Why am I not surprised? Not that I'll object to this particular change. It makes sense that you can install better weapons if some comes along (as long as you're prepared to pay for it).

What I object to is the notion that this increases the TL of the ship. And it doesn't -- see below.

Note that this is what was done to the AHL - weapon wise at least.

And the AHLs that were thus refitted didn't become TL15 ships but TL14 ships with TL15 weapons. Check page 31 of Supp 9. The spinal is a factor N meson (TL15) but the tech level given for the ship as a whole is 14.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

But they are proof that you can install TL15 stuff in TL14 hulls - so the OTU setting trumps the vague rule in HG2 that was clarified in TCS

 

[rancke]

But they are proof that you can install TL15 stuff in TL14 hulls - so the OTU setting trumps the vague rule in HG2 that was clarified in TCS

I believe I said so myself. I certainly meant to say so. My apologies if I wasn't lucid enough.

The real point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that what it doesn't prove is that putting TL15 stuff in TL14 ships make them TL15 ships. It doesn't.


Hans

 

[martletsquire]

But wait, if you have a Chrysie built at TL14, and upgraded to TL15, yeah, its still a TL14 ish.

But you build a Chrysie at TL15, then its a TL15.

One of the issues I had with High Guard is its lack of flexibility in regards to building modular ships. Just gotta use your imagination.

As to TL issues, anyone saying that modern (1980's) up-weaponed WWII battleships with additional computers and such weren't a match for "modern" ships, well, I'll just leave that argument for later.