Colonial Fleets

[Birdrock]

Thinking about colonial fleets is easier than thinking about Imperial ones. You're stuck in a rigidly regional mindset. You have to think very practical and there's less power projection on a long scale. Presumably.

Regina

I want to know what Regina's colonial fleet is. But to get there I have to work towards it.

Yori

First, I can guarantee that Regina doesn't have just 3 Kinunir-class whatever-they-are's and a baker's dozen of Gazelles. This is a subsector capital. From there I ask myself, well self, what sort of world would have 3 Kinuniriin (BCr 1.3 each) and 13 Gazelles (MCr 300 each) -- about 8 billion credits outright, or a considerably smaller sum as a lease.

I infer:

(1) the world has an interest in escorting merchant ships, and pursuing pirates.

(2) the world has a vague interest in nearby "shows the flag" and "surgical strikes", but not very often.

So the world has trade to protect; in particular, I'd say regular freighters; for instance, the Oberlindes Jump-3 cargoliners.

So this is not a nothing world, like Treece. BUT it could be a world like Yori.


Back to Regina

Now, after having decided what a not-unimportant world like Yori would field, I will expect to see cruisers for Regina. How many? Oh, put a squadron of them there -- say four. There's a 120 billion credits right there, and I expect to see another 120 billion credits in support craft as well. And as in the case of Yori, these are ships, and that does not include system defense.

And to a Budget

Now my abstract, dimensionless, basic budgetary system ranks Yori as a 14, and Regina as a 32. Obviously the difference between 14 and 32 is similar to the difference between BCr 8 and BCr 250 -- all the difference in the world. So what I need now is a world in between these two and see what my expectations are for it.

Ivendo

And that world could be Ivendo -- a low pop world with a good starport and a lowish Tech Level. Bases, but not a hot spot. So I see more need for support than Yori -- but the ships I primarily would expect to see are things like Chrysanthemums or Fer-De-Lances. A couple squadrons of kiloton stuff, and maybe a Sloan.

So BCr9 for three Sloans, BCr7 of Chrysanthemums, and another BCr 8 of support craft, for a total of BCr24.

Ivendo's budget is 18, not much higher than Yori.

Trends

Three data points is by no means enough to extract a trend, but I think there can be an exponential or inverse logarithmic trend here. Larger budget numbers results in increasing military budgets.

Test: Mora

By my calculations, the Mora budget number is 50 - a very high number, and hard to beat. I think this means that Mora has one of the biggest military budgets in the Marches, if not the Domain. I might expect battleships to be here. 8 of those would easily be a cool trillion credits, plus another trillion for support.

 

[Peter Schutze]

kinda depends how your deciding that budget number doesnt it ?

if you think Colonial fleets are largely influenced by trade protection, perhaps the gurps trade number would give a good comparitor for your budget (guesstimates) ?

also for trade patrols wouldnt more smallish ships make sense ? things in the 1-5k ton range

 

[rancke]

A ballpark figure for Regina's planetary navy is easy to get.

Regina's population is 725 million in 1112 [Grand Survey] and 734 million in 1120 [BtC:81]. What date are you looking for? 1105? Guesstimate 715 million?

Regina's tech level and trade classifications are 12 and 'Rich'.

Regina's GNP is Cr16,000*1.6*715,000,000 = MCr18,304,000.

Average military spending for Imperial member worlds is 3%. This is the big variable. Would Regina, located as it is, with the Zhodani and the Vargr lurking just over the border spend more or less than the average? I'd be inclined to say more, but let's stick to the average to begin with.

Military budget is thus 3% of GNP = MCr549,120.

Of this, 30% goes to the Imperium, leaving 70% for Regina: MCr384,384.

Of this, the proportion allocated to the army averages 40% on most worlds. No particular reason to assume it isn't the case for Regina too, but this is another place where things can be fiddled with.

Remaining for the planetary navy, 60% = MCr230,630.

Yearly budget for the navy part of Regina's defense forces: BCr230. Note that these are local credits, worth about 0.7 Imperial credits each. This becomes relevant if Regina buys any of its hardware from off-planet sources.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Test: Mora

By my calculations, the Mora budget number is 50 - a very high number, and hard to beat. I think this means that Mora has one of the biggest military budgets in the Marches, if not the Domain.

Not surprising, since Mora has one of the highest populations in the Marches and the highest current tech level.

The highest budget in the Domain would be Lintl in Reft Sector with its population of 40 billion. Unless, that is, its military budget is a significantly smaller part of its GNP, which is certainly quite possible given its location far from potential invaders.

I might expect battleships to be here. 8 of those would easily be a cool trillion credits, plus another trillion for support.

Given the same assumptions about military tax and army/navy apportions, Mora's planetary navy would have a budget of BCr3,880...


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

..snop snip...


Given the same assumptions about military tax and army/navy apportions, Mora's planetary navy would have a budget of BCr3,880...


Hans

To be clear, using Hans' projections Mora has 3.88 Trillion credits worth of fleet budget.

 

[HG_B]

. Note that these are local credits, worth about 0.7 Imperial credits each. This becomes relevant if Regina buys any of its hardware from off-planet sources. Hans

Use full value. They would most likely use Imp credits.

 

[rancke]

To be clear, using Hans' projections Mora has 3.88 Trillion credits worth of fleet budget.

That's using Striker's figures. Which seems to fit Real Life figures pretty well. Ten billion people can afford a lot of military. If you want them to refrain from doing so, you have to remove the surrounding threats. 3% of GNP is already on the low side for an empire surrounded by hostile and unfriendly neighbors. Granted, the Imperium has a quality advantage (tech) over its neighbors, but if it spends so little that the Solomani and the Zhodani can afford to spend five or ten times times as much, its tech advantage won't save it. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

That said, if we were using my figures, Mora would "only" spend one quarter as much. But that is a private fudge and I've never really come up with a good justification. And one trillion credits is quite a bit of money too.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Use full value. They would most likely use Imp credits.

Sure, if you like. That would be a budget of 2.72 trillion Imperial credits then.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Sure, if you like. That would be a budget of 2.72 trillion Imperial credits then.


Hans

Wow! That's plenty. Can you imagine the amount of Monitors that would buy. Tromp most jump capable fleets.

 

[McPerth]

I'm affraid none of the ships you say may be supported by Regina (TL 10 in CT, 12 in MT), nor by any world in its subsector (highest TL 13 at Efate, Pixie and Boughene).

As I understand, colonial fleets must be able to be supported by the subsector that builds them, and planetary fleets by the planet they're built on. So Regina Colonial Fleet may not be of higher TL than 13.

If that can help you, in FFW Regina (then TL 10) has 2 Jump1 cruiser squadrons, Alell has 1 jump 1 cruiser squadron and Efate has 1 cruiser and 1 BR squadrons (both jump4). That's all Regina subsector colonial fleet shown in the game (SDBs aside).

Also in JTAS (nº 9, page 6, TNS) talks about the Regina's 10 heavy SDB being sent to the main GG. It's the same number that apears in FFW as SDB force por Regina.

 

[HG_B]

If that can help you, in FFW Regina (then TL 10) has 2 Jump1 cruiser squadrons,

No reason for a planetary fleet to be jump capable. They should be monitors. The sub-sector fleet would of course be Jump capable.

 

[rancke]

I'm affraid none of the ships you say may be supported by Regina (TL 10 in CT, 12 in MT), nor by any world in its subsector (highest TL 13 at Efate, Pixie and Boughene).

Regina's TL was retconned from 10 to 12. It's not a Ct vs. MT thing. It's an early days vs. nowadays thing.

As I understand, colonial fleets must be able to be supported by the subsector that builds them, and planetary fleets by th eplanet they're built on. So Regina Colonial Fleet may not be of higher TL than 13.

Probably not. However, Grand Census (I think it was) introduced the concept of planets having a different TL from its High Common (that's the one in the UWPs) in selected technological fields. According to that, Regina could conceivably have a space TL of 14 and Efate of 15. There is evidence to suggest that Regina has a space TL of at least 13 (its ability to build jump-4 Kinunirs).

Still, you're probably right about the duchy navy only being TL13 and Regina's navy likewise only being TL13. Why is that a problem?

If that can help you, in FFW Regina (then TL 10) has 2 Jump1 cruiser squadrons, Alell has 1 jump 1 cruiser squadron and Efate has 1 cruiser and 1 BR squadrons (both jump4). That's all Regina subsector colonial fleet shown in the game (SDBs aside).

Force levels in FFW is based on the effective assumption that all population multipliers are 1 (because the population multiplier hadn't been thought of yet). With PMs of 7 and 8, Regina should at least have seven and Efate eight times as many squadrons. But most the money is presumably spent on monitors and SDBs.

Also in JTAS (nº 9, page 6, TNS) talks about the Regina's 10 heavy SDB being sent to the main GG. It's the same number that apears in FFW as SDB force por Regina.

700 million people. GNP of 18 trillion credits. Defenses: 10 heavy SDBs. And one CruRon. Let's not forget the CruRon.

Still, it sounds more than a little implausible to me.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

No reason for a planetary fleet to be jump capable. They should be monitors. The sub-sector fleet would of course be Jump capable.

True, That's why I also talked about its heavy SDB (I guess that means monitors)

 

[mike wightman]

If Norris can buy a TL15 regiment he can buy TL15 ships too.

Going with the concept of a duchy navy then most of the initial colonial counters in FFW belong to the duchy of regina - don't forget that regina controls jewell for the Imperium at this time.

 

[Dragoner]

Individual worlds do contribute cr's to sub-sector and sector fleets which do have ships like Kokirriaks (supp 9, pg 42).

 

[HG_B]

True, That's why I also talked about its heavy SDB (I guess that means monitors)

SDB's are smaller "boats". Monitors are BB's w/o jump drives and will annihilate the equivalent tonnage, Jump capable BB

 

[McPerth]

Regina's TL was retconned from 10 to 12. It's not a Ct vs. MT thing. It's an early days vs. nowadays thing.

I guessed so, but it's at least curious that is the only planet in the marches (IIRC) that raised its tech in those 10 so years, and it did it by two full levels, not just one

Probably not. However, Grand Census (I think it was) introduced the concept of planets having a different TL from its High Common (that's the one in the UWPs) in selected technological fields. According to that, Regina could conceivably have a space TL of 14 and Efate of 15. There is evidence to suggest that Regina has a space TL of at least 13 (its ability to build jump-4 Kinunirs).

I've not had the opportunity to read Gran Census, but as World Builder Handbook (MT), Regina could well have TL 15 in space travel. Even so, it specifies than any hardware of higher TL than its high comon are 'a handful of prototypes of dubious reliability' (page 95)

About building Kinunirs in Regina, having TL 13 computer and TL 15 black globes, rules must be twisted somewhat to allow it (I know you're right the Kinunir module tells some were built in Regina, but rules as they are wouldn't allow that. Or perhaps being one of those 'prototypes of dubious reliability' is the cause of the breackdowns leading to most of modules adventures...)

Force levels in FFW is based on the effective assumption that all population multipliers are 1 (because the population multiplier hadn't been thought of yet). With PMs of 7 and 8, Regina should at least have seven and Efate eight times as many squadrons. But most the money is presumably spent on monitors and SDBs.

As I told, I put this data just for if it can be of utility. If not, then ignore it. I know this problem arises any time FFW is cited, but it's the only example we have about whole fleets (as long as I know, at least).

700 million people. GNP of 18 trillion credits. Defenses: 10 heavy SDBs. And one CruRon. Let's not forget the CruRon.

Still, it sounds more than a little implausible to me.

Well, I said two CruRons, not one . Anyway you're probably right on that.

 

[McPerth]

SDB's are smaller "boats". Monitors are BB's w/o jump drives and will annihilate the equivalent tonnage, Jump capable BB

In FFW I guess SDBs represent more monitors than true SDB. They can be quite lethal agains fleets too...

 

[McPerth]

If Norris can buy a TL15 regiment he can buy TL15 ships too.

Going with the concept of a duchy navy then most of the initial colonial counters in FFW belong to the duchy of regina - don't forget that regina controls jewell for the Imperium at this time.

To mantain TL 15 troops may be quite easier than mantaining TL 15 ships. The equipment troops need are easy to transport than fleets to mantain. After all IIRC they have an Imperial Marine cadre, and Imperial Marines are in the regiment for some tours of duty.

There's also a TL 16 mercenary battalion in FFW, and no one asked where are they from, as long as I know...

 

[Birdrock]

Yearly budget for the navy part of Regina's defense forces: BCr230. Note that these are local credits, worth about 0.7 Imperial credits each. This becomes relevant if Regina buys any of its hardware from off-planet sources.


Hans

Pretty much the same number I arrived at. Good.