Combat - Bringing a knife to a gun fight

[CosmicGamer]

Just an observation I thought I'd post.

In a Pistol vs Cutlass close range fight I'll take the cutlass!

Details
Pistol "to hit"
Personal Range -1
Close Range +0

Cutlass "to hit"
Personal Range -1
Close Range +0

Body Pistol, Snub Pistol, Auto Pistol (on single fire), and Revolver all do 3d6-3
Range of damage 0-15
Avg damage 7.5

Cutlass 2d6+4
Range of damage 6-16
Avg damage 11

Auto Pistol on burst fire 3d6-3+4
Range of damage 4-19
Avg damage 11.5
ok, this one is about even

Gauss Pistol on single fire 3d6
Range of damage 3-18
Avg damage 10.5

Gauss Pistol on burst fire 3d6+4
Range of damage 7-22
Avg damage 14.5
so it takes a TL-13 Gauss Pistol on Burst Fire to do more damage than a TL-2 Cutlass!

Now lets look at the TL-2 Broadsword 4d6
Range of damage 4-24
Avg damage 14
You do lose a little initiative with this big guy.
Thats the same damage as the notorious short range gun - the shotgun.

So put away your pistols and save your ammo.

This advertisement sponsored by Blades-R-us "We're one cut above the rest"



The single shot antique pistol is a joke and I won't list it here.

I'm no mathematician, but I believe those figures are close.

Let me know if I have something wrong or there is some other factor that would effect a close range battle. I have not fought any MGT battles yet.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

Range. You can shoot someone from a great distance, several times as he runs up to you with his blade.

Of course if he just pops up next to you while you're sitting on the toilet then he can cut you to ribbons before you even get your pistol out, but...

There are, really, only three types of combat:

• They ambush you - type of weapon isn't important, because you've been ambushed
• You ambush them - ditto
• Stand-up fight - weapons with greater range tend to win

Ideally your only combats will be those you've planned and chosen the time and place, so that you can ambush them. You can do this with a combination of sneakiness and keeping your eyes open (ie, skill checks). But sometimes you'll screw up or be unlucky and get one of the other types, and then about half the time the range of the weapon is important.

 

[Apparition]

The reason to not bring a knife to a gun fight has nothing to do with the damage the weapon will cause.....melee weapons exert a ton more force then a projectile weapon....in fact guns exert very little force, as Newtons Law states that any force will exert an equal but opposite force, so any time you shoot a gun, you shoot yourself with the gun. That being said, the reason to bring a gun and not a sword is the range issue. You can kill a guy from a distance with a gun, but I would much rather be shot then have someone hack it me with a broadsword....as I would give myself better odds of surviving the gunshot, rather then the force generated by a 15-20 lb hunk of sharp steel.

 

[Amra]

Looks good to me but the ability to Parry is a factor to consider in melee combat results.

This also might answer that age-old RPG question of why people use swords and such in the future - because it kicks butt! (followed closely by - because it's cool!).

 

[far-trader]

Agreed on the previous and have only one bit to add, just a bit tongue in cheek, the reason to always bring a knife to a gunfight is because your gun will eventually jam or run out of bullets. That never happens with a knife. So bring both, or multiples of each, and know how to use them. And knowing a little unarmed combat wouldn't hurt either.

 

[far-trader]

Looks good to me but the ability to Parry is a factor to consider in melee combat results.

Side question: I studied (not too seriously though) a little knife fighting and one thing taught was parrying when unarmed. You get cut but the idea is to make them survivable cuts while you disarm the opponent and win. Do the Mongoose rules allow or cover unarmed parrying? And disarms? And parrying with a firearm?

Just wondering (still pondering saving up some game dollars to get Mongoose Traveller). I've got some house rules so I'm good but I'm curious if this was thought of by them.

 

[Apparition]

Do the Mongoose rules allow or cover unarmed parrying? And disarms? And parrying with a firearm?

Parrying unarmed, I see no problem with it since both skills (blade and unarmed) fall under melee.

With a gun.....I think I would consider it a melee(improvised) weapon and allow a melee parry as normal.

 

[Amra]

I also have studied some knife fighting too and the rule of thumb was to improvise or run. Chairs, bottles, or anything else you can pick-up is better to use against a knife welding opponent rather than unarmed. This is of course against a knife fighter that knows what he's doing, you can fare better against an untrained knife fighter. That said, I try not to get too anal about "real life" in gaming - it drains the fun.

I don't think MGT addresses the issue, Apparition's fix seems fine to me if using RAW. I'm working on a house system for MGT combat (influenced by GURPS) because I'd like an option to MGT's passive defense (player doesn't get to roll). I'm including rules for unarmed vs. armed combat as well as giving the players more combat options.

 

[samuelvss]

Knife v Pistol at arm's length

At a small vocational school on the Hudson we were trained, oh-so-briefly, in "close combat," which in modern parlance would fall under "combatives." It takes thousands of hours to develop the muscle memory to perfect various martial arts techniques, but we had about forty. That allowed for a few basic techniques that required very little skill, and practicing them enough to achieve that very little skill. But our teachers were good, and it was fairly realistic: no pansey-arsed red guns for us, but NYPD .38's with the barrels welded. You knew if the hammer fell! I learned that at arm's length, if you are a blunderer with no motor control you can still disarm the guy with a pistol (in one hand). (You think that's the barrel to your pistol? Well I think it's a lever, and if I torque it with the urgency born of terror, your hand's going to slip on the pistol's handle, except for that trigger finger. You let go instinctively, or I break your finger. You get a shot off to where I'm not, the recoil of which doesn't help your efforts to hold onto the thunder stick.)

If he's got a knife, and I'm unarmed, best case scenario is I get cut. Worst, I die painfully after an embarassing amount of floundering around and getting stuck.

He's got a knife, and I have half a broomstick, he's mine.

I am not talking martial arts, or steely-eye killers here. :nonono: I have the reactions of a sloth on quaaludes, so if I can do it with about forty hours' training, anyone can. It is really about the dynamics of the weapons themselves. Within arm's reach, there is only one way for a pistol to work lethally, and quite a few ways for it to be rendered neutral. A knife works even when you don't want it to. (Yeah, got a couple of those scars....) Using the blade like a lever is darned messy, and the angle gives you no mechanical advantage. No, really I'm discussing the absurd. With a knife in your opponent's hand, and naught but perspiration in yours, within arm's length you're going to get cut. Skill, reflexes, main strength, and lady luck will determine how badly, and whether it will ruin your whole week.

Parrying unarmed IS crucial in this last case, however. It is, however, a necessary but not sufficient cause of further surviving unarmed against the knife. The skill required then is significant, and a great deal more getting cut is likely in the offing.

Again, all of this is at arm's length. Just past it, that range thing can be a mother. Training, ballistics, and luck take over there.

And that whole tactical predictability thing, forget it. The most profound tactical epiphany I ever had was about 3 seconds after 12 of us students of IOBC (Idiots Observing Bad Captains) initiated what we judged was a perfect ambush: the fact that it was all just very expensive laser tag served only to prolong our embarrassment (by about 19 1/2 years and counting :nonono.

Once even minor shooting starts, it is sheer chaos. People shoot each other, shoot not at all, or shoot as if the ranges were all an order of magnitude greater than they are. Training may help one take the edge off, a bit, but profoundly stupid things are still done by smart and well-trained people. That being said, while everyone's I.Q. drops by about 60 points when the first round is fired, training can also make even a simpleton seem like a warrior poet. He may not even register what he did or why until after the fact, if then.

The whole dice thing, it scratches the surface of the chaos. For playability's sake, however, there are hundreds less rolls than there need to be in a few seconds of a firefight.

 

[Apparition]

I think I understand what you are trying to say samuelvss, but my simple argument for the disarming of a knife is not to use it as a lever, but to grab his wrist. I am a martial artist, have been for 21 years, so I do have some skill, but anyone who knows the simple technique can get two hands on someones wrist with thumbs in the middle of the back of their hand, and with a simple twist the knife is yours. Im not saying its something anyone can do, but I think any full-fledged adventurer would know some simple tricks for survival.

I described a disarm I suppose, but a parry is even simpler, step in, block the arm, knee him in the groin, get his knife, slit his throat .

 

[CosmicGamer]

Parrying unarmed, I see no problem with it since both skills (blade and unarmed) fall under melee.

It could be done that way but I see it differently. See below.

Do the Mongoose rules allow or cover unarmed parrying? And disarms? And parrying with a firearm?

Disarms: Yes under grappling rules, disarming and the possibility of taking the weapon away
Parry with a firearm: I thought I saw somewhere that you specifically could but can't find it now. There is nothing that says you can't from what I see.
Unarmed parrying: I don't see anything that says you can't parry unarmed but the definition of parry is to ward off, turn aside, or evade. I would think that unarmed parrying would still hit you causing damage and should not give a reduced chance to hit. Damage rolls can vary quite a bit, so an unarmed parry, or even a partially successful dodge could be considered part of that variation. IMO, when unarmed, I think you should use the dodge option. Within the rules you could use some kind of improvised shield or weapon to parry with.

 

[Apparition]

I don't see anything that says you can't parry unarmed but the definition of parry is to ward off, turn aside, or evade. I would think that unarmed parrying would still hit you causing damage and should not give a reduced chance to hit.

I agree with the definition, but again I look at it from the martial artists perception. You can ward off and turn aside a melee weapon by blocking the opponents arm. Since rules are given for degrees of failure, perhaps if you fail by one(a marginal failure) and the opponent was parrying your attack unarmed, you manage to cause a decreased amount of damage to the parrying arm, but I feel that an unarmed parry that causes an otherwise successful melee attack to miss means that the opponent managed to close the distance and somehow disrupt the arm making the attack.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I agree with the definition, but again I look at it from the martial artists perception. You can ward off and turn aside a melee weapon by blocking the opponents arm. Since rules are given for degrees of failure, perhaps if you fail by one(a marginal failure) and the opponent was parrying your attack unarmed, you manage to cause a decreased amount of damage to the parrying arm, but I feel that an unarmed parry that causes an otherwise successful melee attack to miss means that the opponent managed to close the distance and somehow disrupt the arm making the attack.

I'm not sure exactly how it works and wish there were some combat examples.

I personally think that what is suggested is possible but doesn't fit the rules as a parry.

Lets say a character has a rifle and is being attacked "He is swinging his knife at me so I react by pulling the trigger". That seams as possible as "He is swinging his knife at me so I parry it". The rules, however, define firing a gun as a Significant Action while parrying is a reaction. (see below where I mention delay because this is possible in certain circumstances)

There are grappling rules and I think thats what is being suggested; engage the enemy in a way that prevents them from attacking with their weapon.

"attempt to wrestle or grab another person instead of hitting him"

This occurs as an action though, not a reaction.

My take on it is that if a character successfully grapples with an opponent, that opponent can not use a weapon until they successfully perform a grappling action which breaks them free.

A character in a grapple cannot move or do anything other than make opposed Melee checks

Delay: You can even wait for the attacker to come at you with the knife and then act (not react) just before - if you have initiative.

A character does not have to act when his turn comes up in the Initiative order. He may act at any later point during the round, even interrupting anothers actions to do so.

But if a character has acted already or their opponent has initiative.... I think the character is out of luck and better just dodge.

In conclusion, I still think a character could try to dodge when unarmed but not parry since, to me, an unarmed parry is really an attempt to grapple which is considered an action and not a reaction.

I'm still confused by some of the rules and the more we discuss them together the better understanding I get. Once I get a better grasp of it I want to create a combat flowchart. We are kinda off topic for this thread about knives and guns....

 

[Apparition]

I think I am not doing as good of a job explaining what I am trying to explain. Maybe if I stop using the word parry and instead use block it would make more sense.

In my previous example, someone attacks you with a knife. Now ignore the fact he is trying to stab you,and instead imagine it as a punch and block the attack. Unless you are the terminator, you will not try and stop the attack by blocking the fist, but trying to redirect the momentum of his arm with a forceful thrust of your own would do the trick. We usually only use the term "parry" for armed melee combat, but I dont think it much of a stretch to call a block a parry.

Im not saying that its not a dangerous task, but its not a difficult one. I think that allowing a melee(unarmed) deduction from the attack roll, with some added risk factor of minor injury (perhaps on a minor failure as listed above) is reasonable.

Now I have just addressed the unarmed aspect of it. As far as being armed with a gun...I can see two possibilities.
1) a melee(improvised) specalization could be used to address knowledge of how to use something as a weapon, or a ranged weapon as a melee weapon
2) allow melee(Bludgeon) to be used for rifles, and other weapons that could become clubs

This would still allow for a parry roll under the combat rules as is without any complication, and IMHO makes perfect sense.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I think I am not doing as good of a job explaining what I am trying to explain. Maybe if I stop using the word parry and instead use block it would make more sense.

It does, thank you. This is exactly why I love these forums - to help you figure out the rules that are often open to a lot of interpretation. I really got hung up on that word parry

I think that allowing a melee(unarmed) deduction from the attack roll, with some added risk factor of minor injury (perhaps on a minor failure as listed above) is reasonable.

Now that I believe we are on the same page... If your opponent misses then your block was successful or maybe your opponent was just a klutz. For role playing purposes you could let the effect decide that (Would you have gotten hit without your DM for parrying). No added risk factor would be needed. Again, for role playing purposes you could let the effect decide how successful the block was. If it was a fairly good attempt to block (opponent barely makes the attack roll) But does a lot of damage (little effect but rolls high on the dice) you can rollplay that you stopped him from cutting your throat but a major blood vessel in your arm was hit (if a bladed weapon) or your arm was broken.

As far as being armed with a gun...I can see two possibilities.
1) a melee(improvised) specalization could be used to address knowledge of how to use something as a weapon, or a ranged weapon as a melee weapon
2) allow melee(Bludgeon) to be used for rifles, and other weapons that could become clubs

This would still allow for a parry roll under the combat rules as is without any complication, and IMHO makes perfect sense.

I believe that both I and the book allow for a gun to be used to parry/block. The book does define a Improvised weapon and says to use "melee(unarmed or appropriate to weapon)" for the range. Is this what you meant by melee(improvised) specalization? It is easy to believe that the book would allow the melee(Bludgeon) or the melee(unarmed) skill for parrying with the gun. Since the book is vague you could even get away with using the melee(blade) skill. If you have no melee skills at all do you give the attacker a +3 to hit if you try to parry?

Since we are on the subject let me pull a quote from the book on page 62 about parrying.

A character being attacked in melee can parry, applying his melee skill as a negative DM equal to the attack roll

What is that word equal about? I just ignore it and read it as a negative DM to the attack roll.

 

[Apparition]

Since we are on the subject let me pull a quote from the book on page 62 about parrying. What is that word equal about? I just ignore it and read it as a negative DM to the attack roll.

Hmm, that is awkwardly worded, isnt it. If I were to haszard a guess.....perhaps its a typo that got through proofreading. I agree with you and rule it as if that second part did not exist.

As to using a gun for parry, I found the rule that you are referring to, stating either use unarmed or skill appropriate to the weapon. In that case, I think I would allow a melee(unarmed) skill for using, say, a handgun, and perhaps melee(bludgeon) for a long weapon. I dont think I would allow use of Melee(blade) unless it happened to have a Bayonette on it...but thats still a stretch under the circumstance.

Other then that, I think we are on the same page

 

[BlackBat242]

The main key to countering both weapons (at "touch" distance) is simply the operation of the human nervous system.

If you have decided to try to disarm the opponent, then you move first. Unless he/she/it is already starting to shoot/stab, then it goes like this:
1. you start your disarm movement.
2. opponent's eye picks up movement, and transmits streaming image to CPU.
3. CPU processes streaming image, and compares it to stored movements.
4. CPU concludes "he's trying to grab my weapon", and then processes appropriate response (after whatever "shock at the disarm attempt" delay opponent's training doesn't prevent).
5. Shoot/stab command is transmitted to appropriate muscle group.
6. muscles initiate shoot/stab movement.

While this takes only a few hundredths to tenths of a second (depending on the level of response training opponent has), your hand(s) is/are still moving toward the weapon.

Usually, you reach the weapon before the opponent's reaction starts.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Note my obnoxious comments will be about the highlighted bits.

Just an observation I thought I'd post....
Details
Pistol "to hit"
Personal Range -1
Close Range +0

Cutlass "to hit"
Personal Range -1
Close Range +0

How do you get a 'Neg One' Range Band anyhow?

Body Pistol, Snub Pistol, Auto Pistol (on single fire), and Revolver all do 3d6-3
Range of damage 0-15
Avg damage 7.5

Cutlass 2d6+4
Range of damage 6-16
Avg damage 11

Auto Pistol on burst fire 3d6-3+4
Range of damage 4-19
Avg damage 11.5
ok, this one is about even

Gauss Pistol on single fire 3d6
Range of damage 3-18
Avg damage 10.5

Gauss Pistol on burst fire 3d6+4
Range of damage 7-22
Avg damage 14.5
...
Now lets look at the TL-2 Broadsword 4d6
Range of damage 4-24
Avg damage 14

What's all that other stuff after the first number, see all my damages read "2D, 3D, 4D", etc.?

...

I'm no mathematician, but I believe those figures are close.

Let me know if I have something wrong or there is some other factor that would effect a close range battle. I have not fought any MGT battles yet.

Hey wait, you're using new fangled Traveller, aren't you? Dangnabbit! You kooky kids and your crazy new rules.

 

[BlackBat242]

At a small vocational school on the Hudson

USMA?

unnecessary filler letters to satisfy the board's obsession with minimum post length

 

[CosmicGamer]

How do you get a 'Neg One' Range Band anyhow?

Personal Range -1 indicates you get a -1 DM on the attack at Personal Range.

What's all that other stuff after the first number, see all my damages read "2D, 3D, 4D", etc.?

3d6-3 The Auto pistol on single fire does damage of Roll 3 6 sided dice and subtract 3 from the result. (I know, doesn't make sense that it can do 0 damage) On burst fire you are firing more bullets. MGT does not have you roll to see if each bullet hits, it just increases the possible damage so 3d6-3+4 is the weapons regular damage and a +4 modifier for the burst fire.

Hey wait, you're using new fangled Traveller, aren't you? Dangnabbit! You kooky kids and your crazy new rules.

Yes. All I previously owned was an incomplete set of CT so when I decided to get back into things I bought the latest. I have a post somewhere that describes why I chose MGT.