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Command Crew Ratio and Crew Berthing

TheDS

SOC-13
IIRC, both MT and FFS1 say that for every 6 people on your ship, you need a person to act as Command Crew. Thusly, divide your total crew by 6, and this is the number of additional command crew needed.

However, I have recently been browsing statistics about US Battleships over at warships1 and found that in general, there are anywhere from 10-20 enlisted to each officer.

One could make the argument that Chief Petty Officers, or even regular Petty Officers, are supposed to be included in this command crew, but I am not sure this is supported by the way ships are made.

In the Navy, Officers get staterooms. At worst, they pair up, though the Command Crew of a large ship (the Heads of the Departments and the CO and XO) get their own staterooms. (Small ships see this rule broken a bit, but the CO still gets his own cabin.)

Enlisted people don't get staterooms (excepting the Command Master Chief, the highest renking Enlisted person), they sleep in racks, or bunks as its listed in the books.

So, depending on the total crew complement of your ship, you should probably use a median figure of 1 per 15. Ships with less than 500 would tend toward the 1 per 10 figure, ships with more than 3000 would tend toward the 1 per 20 figure.

As to berthing...

CO and Flag always get their own staterooms. These are large staterooms, unless the ship is small, like a cruiser. XO usually gets his own stateroom, and it will probably be the same size as the CO's. These people use half their staterooms as an office.

Department Heads (typically 3-7 people) get their own small stateroom. Other officers get to split a small stateroom per 2 people. Marines will split such a stateroom among 4 officers. Note this is NOT hot bunking, there are 2 or 4 racks in each room.

Enlisted people will sleep in racks (bunks). Probably only on subs or old destroyers will you see hot-bunking, though I suppose a battlecruiser might do so as well if the spinal mount takes up too much of the hull.

A stack of 3 racks takes up 1 displacement ton, though Marines are allocated 4 racks in that stack, and the racks are correspondingly thinner since they don't really need the storage space under the rack itself.
 
CP/s usually bunk together, often in cabins.
The "planning cabin" for CPOs in the US Navy's new LPD-17 class. seems to sleep 6 in about 4Dton (i.e, about 18m2).

Or I have been figuring that a nuclear sub has about 6 bunks per Dton. Figuring in mess space and hygeine it works out to between 2-4 crew per Dton. CPOs and officers have it better, but still about 1 Dton/officer total, including wardroom & hygeine.

As for command crew, you must remember that U.S. Navy's battleships had industrial age technology and manning, so there were a lot of peons to inrease the leader-to-led ratio.
 
But it's about the same today. My ship was like that. I don't have hard numbers atm, but I figue if I can find my crew's book I can count em up. I seriously doubt there were less than 10 of us peons per zero.
 
A lot depends on the nature of command crew. Are all officers? or does it include Yeoman Jones, too?

The formulae would tend to imply that it's officers and chiefs... but not admin weenies.
 
Well, the formula would imply that we're talking about NCOs; if you include E5 and up, then you get a ratio approaching 1:6 or so. But the book goes on to say (or at least imply) that command crew are deserving of better berthing. Before I joined the Navy, when Megatraveller was the thing, my cousin and I designed dozens of ships, and one thing we always felt was part of a design was that non-command crew slept 4 to a large stateroom, command crew slept 2 to a large stateroom, and the CO (and XO if there were an even number of crew) had their own single occupancy staterooms. And we of course thought command crew was officers only; after seeing TV shows which only depict officers as main characters, you think that you need a bunch of them.

Now that I've been in the navy, I know that this is not the way things are; regular Joes don't get staterooms on military ships. I would imagine that cruise liners are a different story, and perhaps the regular merchant marine; they are probably a lot closer to our expectations back then.
 
Hmm... well if we assume (for sanity's sake) that it's just CHiefs (E7+) and officers... and assume a somewhat more top-heavy navy, the numbers work well.

Let me restate this a bit... Command crew might include some particular staff weenies: Political Officers and Chaplains. Given that any subsector can be expected to have 3-4 significant religions per ship, assuming all ships enlisted are drawn from a single subsector, and mostly from a single world, we can expect that the larger the crew, the more likely to have chaplains for lesser sects, and possibly multiples for a signle sect, maybe two. Likewise, it is highly likely that the sector and subsector duke will have political officers assigned...

It is amazing how we forget that Many regimes on the planet use Political officers... and that that is probably more likely in the autocratic 3I than under current western republican formats.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:

It is amazing how we forget that Many regimes on the planet use Political officers... and that that is probably more likely in the autocratic 3I than under current western republican formats.
IMTU political officers are fairly common in planetary forces, especially those from balkanized or high law worlds. As far as the Imperial forces go, I usually don't use them. I kind of take the high number of officers who are also Imperial nobles (especially in the IN) as providing the same type of control/influence on the operation of their vessels that a political officer would try to exert.
 
Belgian Navy minehunters (Flower class, used by French and Dutch Navy too, but with different names):

CO (usually 04) and XO (usually 03): one stateroom each.

OPS (operations officer, usualy 02) and ARM (weapons officer, usualy 01 or 02): one stateroom for them both.

SUPPLY (supply officer, an optional function not actualy present on every ship, usualy 01 or 02) and NAVI (navigator: a CPO acting as officer of the watch, that is being in charge of the bridge 8 hours a day): one stateroom for them both.

CHEF CO (A CPO in charge of the CO, belgian minehunters linguo for CIC) and CHEF PLONGEUR (Chief diver: a PO acting both as a diver and as the boatsman, that is the chief of the deck gang): one stateroom for them both.

HTD (CPO head of technical department) and CHEF ELEC (CPO, chief electrician): one stateroom for them both.

Coxwain (CPO in charge of both admistration and crew discipline) and ELOSON or ELORAD(the oldest of the two, the other one bunks with the crew, a PO, electronicics specilized in sonar or radar): one stateroom for them both.

That is: CO and XO, each in their one stateroom; 3 junior officers and the 7 most senior PO, per two in 5 staterooms. The rest of the crew (36 peoples) bunks in three 6-people and two 9 people spaces.

Note that every stateroom double as office for the people occupying it. The coxwain as a ship's office about the size of half a cabin and the tech gang as a single tech office the same size to share.
 
5 officers for a crew of 42 ratings and chiefs.
slightly less than Traveller rates for officers only (just under 1 per 8)

But, lets see which are command crew:
CO, XO: Definitely
Supply: probably
NAVI: No... he's the navigator, a non-command crew post.
ChCO: Probably.
Coxswain: Yup.
HTD: Chief engineer: thus not a CC slot.
Chef Elec, Eloson, Elorad: Engineers or Electronics crew all (version dependant), but for arguments sake, Chef Elec might be CC.
The pilots are probably ratings...
So I count 6 CC....

Thanks for the details, Hans! Great food for crunching (but that's a pretty small crew).

One additional question:
How many Yeomen (Admin clerks), supply ratings, and "fluff" (Barbers, morale staff, clergy/chaplains, political department, intell)
 
I would consider HTD command crew as he is head of technical department. The name clearly (HTD means 'hoofd technise dienst', head of technical service in dutch) indicate that is main job is suppervision of technical jobs rather than actually technical. In real, it's somewhere in between...
 
4 comms on board: 1 PO/CPO and 3 ratings. But I would consider at most one of them as command crew.

No dedicaced supply ratings (tech supply is handled by techs, food supply by cook and stewards). Nothing 'fluff' as you describe it. Note , as there is only one cook, the two steward are more cook helpers than actual morale crew. Maybe one of them could be considered CC.
 
Something as small as a minehunter, I wouldn't expect to have the fluff. A minehunter is a boat, afterall, and not a ship, and as such, won't be away from port long enough to need such incidentals. On the ship I was on, barbers and chaplains and admin were in Supply department, if anyone wondered.

Hans, you have also made the important point that on smaller craft, it may occur that enlisted personnel sometimes get staterooms. And you have also made the important point that staterooms have room to be used as a workspace, something I forgot to mention. Desk, chair, light... on a big ship, there will be actual offices, but on something smaller, there isn't room for such luxury.

For the ultimate in crowding, I recommend visiting a WW2 submarine and walking through it. They crowded a hundred or more guys in those things, putting up hammocks over the torpedoes at night, and hot racking. The galley is just big enough for the cook, and the mess decks holds about 10 people at a time. I would imagine most people ate in their work area.

There is a sub in Mobile Bay, in southern Alabama, next to the battleship of that name, and there is a U-boat in the Museum of Science and Industry, in the southern part of Chicago. I'm sure there are others, and you can always watch Das Boot (The Boat) for a glimpse into how it was for them. Take note of the guy coming out of the head when GQ sounds. K-19 (the recent one with Harrison Ford in it, maybe it's K-something else) is also pretty good for giving you an idea of how it is on a small ship.
 
Minehunters are definitly ships! Small ones, I agree, but whatever the sense you give to ship, minehunters qualify. Unless you require them to be jump capable.
 
I require a minehunter to cross an ocean without refueling in the middle. Or, if a space vessel, to be capable of interstellar travel. In any case, a ship is a vessel capable of independent operation far from home port, whereas a boat relies on port or a mothership of some sort and typically has an endurance measured in hours or days, rather than weeks (endurance as measured in food, I mean.)
 
For wet vessels, I use the US Navy definition:
a Ship is a Surface Vessel greater than 100feet (approx 33m) in length, from the bow's furthest forward point (usually the railing of the bow, not the bowsprit) to the sternmost part of the stern (but excluding the jackstaff).

Many US minesweepers are not ships.

As for HTD: The reason I didn't count him as CC is that ALL engineering staff are outside CT, MT, and TNE CC fiugres; the chief engineer is an engineer. (for civilian ships, the most skilled engineer.)
 
To quote the greatest of American heroes:

Crikey!

Man, I wish Warships1.com was back up so I could check out some ships besides battleships. Or that Jane's was a useful site. Anyone know the length and displacement and range of an OHP-class frigate, off hand? Wondering how that compares to this gigantic minehunter.
 
Someone check Harpoon! (And it's a GDW game, in the edition I have...) I just can't find mine...

Now, the Arleigh Burke DDG 51 is 142m (465') according to the US Navy's quick-info pages... (www.navy.mil).

No frigates are shown there.
 
Originally posted by TheDS:
To quote the greatest of American heroes:

Crikey!

Man, I wish Warships1.com was back up so I could check out some ships besides battleships. Or that Jane's was a useful site. Anyone know the length and displacement and range of an OHP-class frigate, off hand? Wondering how that compares to this gigantic minehunter.
No problem...

A quick google search turned up several sources of info. According to them, the OHP-class Frigate is 133-135 m long (depending on inclusion of LAMPS III), displaces 4100tons and has a crew of 17 officers and 198 enlisted. Max sustained speed is 29 knots and range is 4200 nmi at 20 knts.

Navy Fact File for the Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigate. Another good site.
 
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