Commercial starship lifeboat requirements

[CosmicGamer]

Any disease has a latency period... [snip] ...Thus, any "plague ship" scenario will hit its peak after a ship emerges from jump

The info you provide states different diseases have different latency periods and so on so I'm not sure how you come to those specific results for any "plague ship".

D/E ports tend to be subsidized merchants, free traders (who have no boat), scouts, warships, and suchlike.

Perhaps it depends on which rules are used, but I believe the world itself could be technologically advanced and capable of handling medical needs even if the port is not.

 

[rancke]

Perhaps it depends on which rules are used, but I believe the world itself could be technologically advanced and capable of handling medical needs even if the port is not.

Especially since D and E ports on populous worlds with stellar technology are well-nigh unbelievable, the exception being worlds that deliberately refuse to offer service to visiting starships and worlds whose capacity is temporarily overburdened. It's hard to believe any world with a reasonable population and stellar technology could possibly be unable to offer the services of, at the very least, a Class C starport (Class B if there are secondary populations elsewhere in the system).


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Just out of curiosity, I started to back track to find the start of the medical debate on this topic ... but at more than 100 posts back, it was too far back for me. :rofl:

 

[Carlobrand]

The info you provide states different diseases have different latency periods and so on so I'm not sure how you come to those specific results for any "plague ship". ...

Sorry, I didn't show the math on that one. It has to do with about two days being the lower value for latency periods. Patient Zero comes aboard without showing symptoms, starts showing say the next day, two days after that some of those exposed to him start showing symptoms, two days after THAT some of those exposed to THEM start showing symptoms, and two days after that they're emerging from jump. It's a rough guess and depends a lot on the means of transmission - I assumed person-to-person airborne as the worst-case scenario. It's possible he's leaving something around on surfaces, say with his sneezes, that others pick up by contact long after he's gone back to his room, but that's a trickier means of transmission since it can be stopped dead by confining everyone to their own quarters and cleaning everything with a very strong chlorine solution.

Odds of transmission in general are pretty low and depend on a variety of factors- the concentration of buggies the person is exposed to, his health state, and so forth. One experimental study involving guinea pigs and flu achieved 25% transmission rates only by exposing the little darlings to an aerosolized mix continuously over 7 days. Odds of infection run from the fractions of a percent to as high as 70 percent depending on the mode of transmission - that last is more common in a contact transmission more where the virus can survive in the environment for a decent while to encounter someone, or where you have very intimate exposure.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Sorry, I didn't show the math on that one. It has to do with about two days being the lower value for latency periods.

I can see that on the higher end you might not even consider it an issue - no "plague ship" if only one passenger has exhibited symptoms.

Patient Zero comes aboard without showing symptoms, starts showing say the next day, two days after that some of those exposed to him start showing symptoms,

Ok, I see. But
1) some initial symptoms may not warrant much concern and someone could be quite contagious from the moment they board.
2) while less likely, it is still not uncommon for some diseases to be transmitted prior to showing symptoms.
3) why couldn't numerous people on board all get infected within the first 1-3 days by the first person to bring the disease aboard, before symptoms were bad enough to quarantine them and because they felt that the life support system would prevent the spread but it got contaminated :devil: then they all start showing symptoms before leaving jump space?

While shaking hands, introducing yourself to one another, sneezing, getting to know each other over a drink, coughing, touching chairs, food prep machines, and other shared items in the common area it might be possible for people to become infected before the ship even jumps.

 

[Carlobrand]

...3) why couldn't numerous people on board all get infected within the first 1-3 days by the first person to bring the disease aboard, before symptoms were bad enough to quarantine them and because they felt that the life support system would prevent the spread but it got contaminated :devil: then they all start showing symptoms before leaving jump space?

While shaking hands, introducing yourself to one another, sneezing, getting to know each other over a drink, coughing, touching chairs, food prep machines, and other shared items in the common area it might be possible for people to become infected before the ship even jumps.

It's possible for everyone to get exposed. That doesn't necessarily translate to becoming infected. As I said, odds of infection vary considerably and depend on a large number of factors. Your odds on shaking hands and saying hi, then never being closer than 10 feet after that, are much lower than your odds if you spend a lot of time cuddling and smooching, because the latter generally means more germies or viruses or whatever hitting your defenses and therefore a greater likelihood of some of them surviving long enough to reproduce. A defense like your mucous membranes will trap and carry away some airborne buggies, for example, but a large exposure over a long time may overwhelm that defense. On the other hand, a particular buggie may be specially adapted to penetrating mucous. Many, many variables.

 

[PFVA63]

No, not really. All that is needed is to consider the difference between still experimental high tech with a century or two of development behind it and fully mature ultra-tech with 10,000 years of development behind it. Ultra-tech that allows people to deal with the heat created by fusion plants.


Hans

Hi,

In looking at Don McKinney's Integrated Timeline it indicates that the Vilano discovered Jump 1 in IY -9235 (which I believe was about 4714 BC on Earth). It also indicated that the Terrans discovered Jump-1 in IY -2551 (or 2089 AD, or about 76 years from now). Further, 1st contact between the Terrans and the Vilani is listed as IY -2422 (or 2098 AD, 85 years from now).

After 1st Contact GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars notes that immediately after the 3rd Interstellar War (which is listed as having taken place between 2145 AD and 2156 AD or about IY -2375 to -2364);

"a series of plagues began to spread through Vilani populations, especially on worlds close to the Imperial border. Nusku appeared to be the epicenter of these plagues and it was soon proven that the disease outbreaks always followed contact with Terrans.

Working on Nusku and elsewhere Terran physicians discovered that simple Terran viral diseases - especially influenza, measles, and mumps - caused the plagues. To their horror, they found that much of the Vilani population was vulnerable to these diseases and had no evolved resistance to them. As it happened, the Vilani had often dealt with "alien' diseases in their thousands of years of starfairing history - but Terran viruses seemed particularly virulent and deadly when introduced to Vilani populations."

Additionally, GURPS Traveller" Interstellar Wars also notes that; starships during the Interstellar Wars period;

don't have total-recycling life support systems. Breathable air and water are recycled with high-efficiency but biomass is not. Ships must bring on provisions on a regular basis. Meanwhile, waste matter accumulates in the ship's life support system, and must be dumped from time to time."

The rules go on to describe how life support systems are designed to support a certain number of people but may be overloaded if desired, which could lead to their beginning to fail and breakdown.

As such, it appears that even after about 6870 or so years of star fairing life support systems were still not fool proof and that the Vilani population in general was still very susceptible to diseases.

Looking further through Don McKinney's Calendar it also notes the following with respect to diseases;

in IY 994 the Grand Duke of the Trelyn Domain falls to a disease.

in IY 1062 "A virulent crippling disease appears on Corfu (Spinward Marches 2602); with no cure, the Scout Service interdicts the world"

As such, it appears that even after the Interstellar War period the potential for virulent diseases that appear to have been so difficult to control that the Scouts interdicted a world over it, also still exists.

As such, to me it appears that even after thousands of years of experience in star fairing life support systems may be not fully 100% effective and virulent diseases still appear to be a potential problem.

 

[PFVA63]

PFVA63, your original argument related to this was that a good solution to an infectious disease being found on the ship was to toss all the crew and passengers into lifeboats/lifepods and get the heck off the ship. The real problem with that is that you're 1) leaving a very secure shelter for a less secure shelter, and 2) abandoning a frickin' multi-hundred million credit starship.

...

Hi,

A couple things to consider is that nowhere are we talking about 'abandoning a ship' in all situations.

Specifically, first it would seem to me that depending on the type of operations, type of ship, and milieu in question the likelihood of a ship being in a situation where an infectious disease may vary a lot.

Beyond this, if a disease is encountered not all of them will necessarily be as dangerous as another and as such different types of outbreaks will likely require different means of handling them. If a disease can be controlled or treated with the facilities and medications onboard there likely would be no need to take any more drastic actions, and not all of those diseases will necessarily be of the type that they might pose a threat to contaminating a ship's air and/or water supplies. As such, we are only talking of a potential subset, of a subset of specific cases where segregating those diagnosed as ill versus those not showing signs of the illness and where there is the fear that the mechanisms that may spread the disease may have spread to the ship's life support systems (or where there may be a fear that they may have).

In addition to the above, even in the above cases, not all situations may call for 'abandoning the ship', as for some, you may either just be segregating the two groups and/or if the lifeboat/lifepod is launched, the sick passengers and crew already on the parent ship, along with the personnel treating them, would still be on the parent ship.

Finally though, for those cases where there has been an outbreak and a decision may be made t actually really 'abandon' that ship (assuming all other options have been exhausted) then in those cases, to me I'm not really seeing much of a difference between them and say 'someone abandoning a car that is an immediate health hazard to them' (say one that has fallen into the water, been involved in an accident where gas has spilled, or one which has caught fire.

Similar incidents could also be for houses )and all the belongings inside) in or near disaster areas, such as those in danger of a forest fire or brush fire, those in danger of a hurricane, flood or other such incident as well as those that have been flooded by such an incident and are now no longer suitable for habitation due to being infested with mud, muck, bacteria, black mold or other health hazards.

Similarly, boats and aircraft in the real world may also be 'abandoned' due to immediate hazards to your health including fire, loss of power and/or ability to make headway in a dangerous area and/or things like grounding etc.

To me, the thought of 'abandoning' a multi-million dollar starship that appears to be an immediate threat to the health of the passengers and crew may not really be any different than the thought of the crew of a multi-billion dollar B-2 bomber 'abandoning' it in the event of the loss of power etc that may represent an immediate threat to the health of the crew onboard it, for example.

(In general too, depending on the milieu and setting and such, I would maybe also think that there may be 'insurance' that may cover just such incidents).

 

[rancke]

After 1st Contact GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars notes that immediately after the 3rd Interstellar War (which is listed as having taken place between 2145 AD and 2156 AD or about IY -2375 to -2364);

"a series of plagues began to spread through Vilani populations, especially on worlds close to the Imperial border. Nusku appeared to be the epicenter of these plagues and it was soon proven that the disease outbreaks always followed contact with Terrans.

Working on Nusku and elsewhere Terran physicians discovered that simple Terran viral diseases - especially influenza, measles, and mumps - caused the plagues. To their horror, they found that much of the Vilani population was vulnerable to these diseases and had no evolved resistance to them. As it happened, the Vilani had often dealt with "alien' diseases in their thousands of years of starfairing history - but Terran viruses seemed particularly virulent and deadly when introduced to Vilani populations."

In other words, the plagues followed contact with Terrans who were not themselves susceptible to the germs they carried, so completely different situation from someone falling sick aboard a ship.

The article about the Plague of Duskir in TD#10 notes that "Today, human stock has so intermixed and travel is so widespread that such bacteriological disasters are rare. The lessons learned from such epidemics have taught Imperials how to contact minor Human races without wiping them out unintentionally. "

Additionally, GURPS Traveller" Interstellar Wars also notes that; starships during the Interstellar Wars period;

don't have total-recycling life support systems. Breathable air and water are recycled with high-efficiency but biomass is not. Ships must bring on provisions on a regular basis. Meanwhile, waste matter accumulates in the ship's life support system, and must be dumped from time to time."

As I've mentioned before, the rest of us are talking about conditions in the Classic Era.

That said, IW does not say that waste matter gets mixed up with the air and water. It accumulates and has to be dumped. That's all.

The rules go on to describe how life support systems are designed to support a certain number of people but may be overloaded if desired, which could lead to their beginning to fail and breakdown.

As such, it appears that even after about 6870 or so years of star fairing life support systems were still not fool proof and that the Vilani population in general was still very susceptible to diseases.

Systems are never foolproof if overloaded. That's sort of inherent in the 'over-' part.

The Vilani were susceptible to Terran germs that were innocuous to Terrans. Those who survived exposure and their descendants lost that susceptibility over time.

Looking further through Don McKinney's Calendar it also notes the following with respect to diseases;

in IY 994 the Grand Duke of the Trelyn Domain falls to a disease.

But it doesn't say he caught the disease from a fellow passenger aboard a ship.

in IY 1062 "A virulent crippling disease appears on Corfu (Spinward Marches 2602); with no cure, the Scout Service interdicts the world"

But it doesn't say the disease was carried to Corfu by someone who got infected by a fellow passenger aboard a ship.

As such, it appears that even after the Interstellar War period the potential for virulent diseases that appear to have been so difficult to control that the Scouts interdicted a world over it, also still exists.

As such, to me it appears that even after thousands of years of experience in star fairing life support systems may be not fully 100% effective and virulent diseases still appear to be a potential problem.

Already addressed and refuted several times. Yes, virulent diseases are a potential problem. No, the potential for virulent diseases does not warrant the inclusion of lifeboats in ship designs for the sole purpose of abandoning ship when and if a passenger comes down with a bug.


Hans

 

[PFVA63]

In other words, the plagues followed contact with Terrans who were not themselves susceptible to the germs they carried, so completely different situation from someone falling sick aboard a ship....

Hi,

I believe what it shows is that after thousands of years of star fairing there was still a great potential for encountering diseases that the Vilani had no experience with and were unable to treat. If a Vilani picks up an illness after contact with a Solomani he may well then exhibit a threat to other Vilani (hence the reason that the outbreaks mentioned became plagues). As those Vilani continue to travel and interact with others (including through space travel) they now would likely seem to be a threat to others. And since these are new illnesses that the Vilanin had not yet experienced it is unlikely that they would initially have the medication needed onboard their ships to try and treat any such outbreak, etc.

... The article about the Plague of Duskir in TD#10 notes that "Today, human stock has so intermixed and travel is so widespread that such bacteriological disasters are rare. The lessons learned from such epidemics have taught Imperials how to contact minor Human races without wiping them out unintentionally. "...

Rare does not seem to be the same as non-existent and as I previously noted the outbreak on Corfu in IY 1062 resulted in the planet being interdicted which suggests to me that it was not 'easy to control with futuristic tech'.

...As I've mentioned before, the rest of us are talking about conditions in the Classic Era.

Hi, although some have limited their discussion either to only the classical period or 'typical merchant ships' in 'typical merchant operations' I do not believe that the subject of this discussion was ever specifically limited to that period, especially considering that the 5th Frontier War breaks out in IY 1107 and the Rebellion breaks out not too long after that.

...That said, IW does not say that waste matter gets mixed up with the air and water. It accumulates and has to be dumped. That's all

Systems are never foolproof if overloaded. That's sort of inherent in the 'over-' part.....

With respect to this, the rules for life support system breakdown does actually note that;

"If the ship remains overloaded, life support will eventually reach 0% and fail. At that point, all the oxygen in the air will be used up within 1d hours, and everyone will die...."

As such, the rules appear to provide for the failure of the life support system (due to overloading it) can result in the failure of the system including its ability to replenish the air.

...The Vilani were susceptible to Terran germs that were innocuous to Terrans. Those who survived exposure and their descendants lost that susceptibility over time.

Looking further through Don McKinney's Calendar it also notes the following with respect to diseases;

...

But it doesn't say the disease was carried to Corfu by someone who got infected by a fellow passenger aboard a ship....

Yes, that is correct. I hadn't meant it to suggest that it was an example of disease spreading by ship but rather;

a) it is an example that, contrary to the suggestion that the population of the Imperium will have developed a resistance to diseases by that late in Imperial history, that in fact deadly and virulent diseases will still exist and

b) the Scout service appears to have Interdicted this world, outlawing all traffic into and out of the system to prevent it spreading elsewhere through interstellar travel

...Already addressed and refuted several times. Yes, virulent diseases are a potential problem. No, the potential for virulent diseases does not warrant the inclusion of lifeboats in ship designs for the sole purpose of abandoning ship when and if a passenger comes down with a bug.


Hans

As noted previously, I have been trying to show how existing small craft (which can act as a lifeboat etc) can be of use in such situations (in addition to their other uses). Specifically, others have at times suggested that either an enclosed 'safe haven' onboard the parent ship, or redundant systems onboard the parent ship could be of use in such situations. My thoughts are that since small craft are already carried on many ships they could instead be used as a potential 'safe haven' that would have the additional benefit that it could be separated from the parent ship if needed and can make its way independently if needed.

To the above then is the additional thought that for those ships that either do not carry an existing small craft, or for those that only carry small craft of a limited capability could additional lifeboats/lifepods or other such items also be added.

That isn't meant to suggest that I am specifically advocating the fitting of lifeboats/lifepods to ships solely to address a means of dealing with the outbreak of diseases onboard the parent ship. I've only been trying to demonstrate that a lifeboat/lifepod and/or small craft acting as a lifeboat/lifepod or other such similar concepts may provide benefits in this type situation as well as the other type roles that they may perform.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Further to the items that Carlobrand and CosmicGamer have been discussing, as noted in some of the info that I provided on nuclear submarines there have been instances documented in them of an upper respiratory illness referred to as 'mid-patrol syndrome' which would not show up into well into the 60 day deployment of the crew onboard the nuclear submarines described.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

A couple things to consider is that nowhere are we talking about 'abandoning a ship' in all situations.

Lifeboats imply leaving the ship. They also imply enough room to clear out the ship. If you're not "abandoning ship" then you don't need "lifeboats". ("n all situations" is a strawman; they would only be aboard if there was some situation when it would make sense.)

To me, the thought of 'abandoning' a multi-million dollar starship that appears to be an immediate threat to the health of the passengers and crew may not really be any different than the thought of the crew of a multi-billion dollar B-2 bomber 'abandoning' it in the event of the loss of power etc that may represent an immediate threat to the health of the crew onboard it, for example.

One GIANT problem with that comparison: The starship itself isn't a threat to the life of the crew (not "health" - a threat to the "health" of the B-2 crew will see them fly the airplane somewhere and land it; heck, they might even fly it around for a few hours burning down fuel before they land it) except in one possible occasion: the actual total destruction of the ship due to some violent event. The only threat to the life of the B-2 crew would be fire that will kill them before they can land*, or an imminent crash.

Your "plague ship" scenario doesn't in any way make the starship itself a threat to the life of the crew - even without the easy answer of using the fusion plant to toast off any micro-organism unlucky enough to be an airborne vector. That's the argument folks keep having with your scenario. Short of some fantastic bug that turns the patient into a universal solvent or an Alien, there is NO scenario in which removing the sick folks from the ship entirely provides more medical security than simply isolating them on the ship. If your ships are built in such a way that the only way to isolate a patient is to put them into a lifeboat or launch, then I don't want to fly on them.

* Fire is a major threat on a starship - but it is also easily controlled by pumping out the air, or flooding the space with an inert gas. It is more problematic in an aircraft, where you can't remove the air source.

 

[rancke]

I believe what it shows is that after thousands of years of star fairing there was still a great potential for encountering diseases that the Vilani had no experience with and were unable to treat.

What it shows is that after 300,000 years of not being in contact with the population of Terra, Vilani worlds were virgin soil for Terran diseases. Combining that with Terran invasion forces and immigrants, it's is perfectly understandable that plagues broke out among the Vilani, and starship life support systems has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Rare does not seem to be the same as non-existent...

No, it means rare.

With respect to this, the rules for life support system breakdown does actually note that;

"If the ship remains overloaded, life support will eventually reach 0% and fail. At that point, all the oxygen in the air will be used up within 1d hours, and everyone will die...."

Of course they will. That's what happen if you break your life support system. Again, totally irrelevant to the question of germ control.

a) it is an example that, contrary to the suggestion that the population of the Imperium will have developed a resistance to diseases by that late in Imperial history, that in fact deadly and virulent diseases will still exist and

b) the Scout service appears to have Interdicted this world, outlawing all traffic into and out of the system to prevent it spreading elsewhere through interstellar travel

I see that we've reached the point where I can reply to arguments by cutting and pasting from previous posts:

"Today, human stock has so intermixed and travel is so widespread that such bacteriological disasters are rare."​

This is usually the point where I realize that life is too short and drop a discussion.


Hans

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

As a starter along the lines of trying to look at the calcs involved in a life support system that heats the air onboard a ship up to a very high speed and then cools it, as a means of trying to control the spread of viruses and bacteria, here is some preliminary info.

Above is a notional simplified sketch of a ship showing a notional schematic for the life support air handling. Basically, as shown in the figure, the life support air handling system would have to output fresh 'supply' air at a given rate while taking in 'return' air at a similar rate, in order to provide a given number of air changes per hour.

For a 100 dton ship with 40 dtons of fuel, the habitable space onboard would notionally be 60 dtons. To this though you should probably take into account that a lot of the stuff onboard a ship may 'consume' some of that space so that the 'net volume' needed to be refreshed will be less.

Looking at this site ( http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-ho...b_load_line/mcga-gr_gos_loadline-chapter5.htm ) on modern ships as guidance it appears that the 'permeability' of spaces onboard such ships may be on the order of 85 to 95% (meaning that the open space in a compartment would be on the order of 85 to 95% of the gross volume of the space (based on its dimensions)).

Assuming 85% permeability this would give 60 dton x 14 cubic meters/dton x 0.85 = about 714 cubic meters of air to be refreshed. If we then assume 20 to 30 air refreshes per hour this would mean that you would effectively be refreshing/replacing this 714 cubic meters of air onboard every 2 to 3 minutes.

If we first initially assume dry air as a 1st estimate (we can investigate normal air later if needed) at 75 deg F (~24 deg C or 297 K) the density of dry air is about 1.188 kg/cubic meter. As such the mass of air for our 100 dton ship is about 848 kg.

For a 20 to 30 air change/hour refresh rate the life support system will have to recirculate 848kg of air every 2 to 3 minutes which equals 283 to 424 cubic meters per minute.

Due to the physical properties of air, when room temperature air is subjected to a high temperature it will either expand (about 6.77 times if going from 75 deg F (297 K) to 2000 K) or the pressure will have to go up. And it will take time to go from room temperature to whatever higher temperature that you air trying to heat the air to.

With regards to what higher temperatures might be suitable for heating the air to, above 2000 K (1727 deg C or 3140 deg F) chemical processes will occur which will change the make up of the air, as such a temperature blow this would likely be desirable.

With regards to the lower end temperature that can be used to cool the air, this is likely to be either Absolute Zero (0 K, -273 deg C or -459.67 deg F).

Once at a high temperature, it will then need to be cooled back to room temperature which will result in the air contracting back to its pervious volume or pressure, and will take time to cool to this lower temperature.

By multiplying the amount of time required to both heat and cool the air from room temperature to a high temperature and then back to room temperature by the mass flow rate required for the system you can figure out the amount of air in the heating and cooling portion of the system.

If the amount of time required is greater than the 2 to 3 minute refresh cycle time for the system then there will be more air in the heating and cooling portion of the life support system than in the entire ship.

Specifically,

283 kg/min x more than 3 min > 848 cubic meters
424 kg/min x more than 2 min > 848 cubic meters

If the amount of time required is less than the 2 to 3 minute refresh cycle time for the system then the amount of air in the heating and cooling portion of the life support system will be some fraction of the total air onboard the ship.

For example, if total time is 30 seconds the fraction of the air in the system would be 17 to 25 % of the total air onboard ship, etc.

 

[PFVA63]

Lifeboats imply leaving the ship. They also imply enough room to clear out the ship. If you're not "abandoning ship" then you don't need "lifeboats". ("n all situations" is a strawman; they would only be aboard if there was some situation when it would make sense.)...

Hi,

Not necessarily. As I've tried to note there may be many times were a lifeboat/lifepod may also serve as a 'safe haven' very similar in fact to how the Lunar Module of Apollo 13 was said to have served as a 'lifeboat' to the crew of the stricken command module during their mission eventhough it never separated from the command module until it was discarded prior to re-entry.

...One GIANT problem with that comparison: The starship itself isn't a threat to the life of the crew (not "health" - a threat to the "health" of the B-2 crew will see them fly the airplane somewhere and land it; heck, they might even fly it around for a few hours burning down fuel before they land it) except in one possible occasion: the actual total destruction of the ship due to some violent event. The only threat to the life of the B-2 crew would be fire that will kill them before they can land*, or an imminent crash....

I disagree. A failure of the life support system on the plane could result in the need to eject as just one example.

...Your "plague ship" scenario doesn't in any way make the starship itself a threat to the life of the crew - even without the easy answer of using the fusion plant to toast off any micro-organism unlucky enough to be an airborne vector. That's the argument folks keep having with your scenario. Short of some fantastic bug that turns the patient into a universal solvent or an Alien, there is NO scenario in which removing the sick folks from the ship entirely provides more medical security than simply isolating them on the ship. If your ships are built in such a way that the only way to isolate a patient is to put them into a lifeboat or launch, then I don't want to fly on them....

I believe that others have referred to this as a plague ship scenario as I have tried to note that realistically there are a wide range of illnesses to be considered and that even an illness that can be treated with the proper facilities and medications can be an issue if those are not available onboard.

As for issues with using a ship's fusion plant I have posted some of my concerns above.

 

[PFVA63]

What it shows is that after 300,000 years of not being in contact with the population of Terra, Vilani worlds were virgin soil for Terran diseases. Combining that with Terran invasion forces and immigrants, it's is perfectly understandable that plagues broke out among the Vilani, and starship life support systems has absolutely nothing to do with it....

Hi,

A big concern of mine here is that even on our current planet known diseases mutate and evolve regularly. As such even if we can handle a current strain of any given disease it does not mean that there will be a resistance to the new or mutated strains that will almost certainly develop.

As for Terran invasion forces these outbreaks appear to have initially occurred between the period of the 3rd and 4th Interstellar Wars rather than during the wars.

As for any role that a ship's life support systems may have played during this period (or other like it) these illnesses appear to be something that the Vilani were not familiair with, and for which it appears that they had no known treatments for. Because trade and travel were going on in the Vilani spere at this time, to me this would appear to be situations where an individual may well have embarked on a ship, begun showing symptoms, and for which the personnel onboard would not be well suited to try and handle.

To me, this and the later outbreaks of disease on Corfu in IY 1062, where all trade and travel to the world was interdicted to prevent the spread of disease strongly suggests to me that the life support systems on ships (even in the later IY 1062 era) could not be expected to contain and prevent the spread of virulent diseases to other worlds.

...Of course they will. That's what happen if you break your life support system. Again, totally irrelevant to the question of germ control....

To me this is a very clear indication that life support systems onboard Traveller type ships are somewhat imperfect systems that could be damaged and not only that but since they can break, a ship with a broken or damaged system may be even more susceptible to being susceptible to disease infestation. Since the rules give the potential for systems breaking down, it suggests to me that they in fact did (at the very least during this period) further supporting that an alternative to just relying on whatever onboard life support system that you have could be potentially dangerous.

...I see that we've reached the point where I can reply to arguments by cutting and pasting from previous posts:

"Today, human stock has so intermixed and travel is so widespread that such bacteriological disasters are rare."​

This is usually the point where I realize that life is too short and drop a discussion.


Hans

Its appears that your quote only mentions "bacterial" disasters and not other type illnesses (such as viral infections and the like).

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I disagree. A failure of the life support system on the plane could result in the need to eject as just one example.

You can disagree, but you are wrong. I say this as a pilot - military and civilian. If you (as a military pilot, since civilian aircraft generally aren't equipped with ejection seats) ever ejected because your life support were compromised, you would be read the riot act by your commander, decertified as a pilot, and, at a minimum, given a non-judicial punishment. The correct action would be to simply descend below 10,000 feet and breathe ambient air. The ONLY time that ejection was appropriate was an unrecoverable out-of-control aircraft - basically if the aircraft was already a guaranteed loss and the only choice now was whether the military would lose a pilot, too.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I believe that others have referred to this as a plague ship scenario as I have tried to note that realistically there are a wide range of illnesses to be considered and that even an illness that can be treated with the proper facilities and medications can be an issue if those are not available onboard.

You'd stick someone with the flu in a lifeboat? In a TL 10+ society? WTH for? If you need to isolate them, worst case scenario is putting them in a rescue ball in their stateroom. What I (and others) keep trying to say is if you don't intend to spit the dang thing out into space away from the ship, then why do you waste precious resources on a lifeboat? That's what the heck a lifeboat IS* - it takes you away from the primary vessel. There are at least five different ways to isolate someone aboard a ship that I can think of, BEFORE you have to resort to putting them in the ship's boat or a "lifeboat". And no medical scenario you have presented (the two examples I give - universal solvent and Alien - might) has given sufficient justification for either shooting the patient off the ship, nor for shooting everyone else off the ship.

* "A lifeboat is a small, rigid or inflatable boat carried for emergency evacuation in the event of a disaster aboard a ship."

 

[Carlobrand]

20 to 30 air changes per hour seems excessive, where is that figure from?
ASHRAE recommends 0.35 air changes per hour (or about 1 air change in 3 hours) for living spaces or an ICU (and double that for an operating room). ...

...Similarly there are several sources on the internet for recommended air changes per hour for various spaces on surface vessels (such as from Germanischer Lloyds - a German Ship Classification Society). Here for spaces not normally entered the recommended number of air changes per hour can be as low as 8, while electric motor rooms and compressor or pump rooms may be as high as 30 (or more). Cargo spaces can be as low as 6, but will increase if running vehicles are present.

Air change requirements for other structures and such can also be looked up for comparison. ...
... For reference, from stuff I've read in books or on the internet, it appears that the old Skylab space station operated at about 10 air changes per hour, as did the crew section of the Space Shuttle. ...

...For a 20 to 30 air change/hour refresh rate the life support system will have to recirculate 848kg of air every 2 to 3 minutes which equals 283 to 424 cubic meters per minute. ...

If you yourself are finding sources that suggest air change rates as low as 10 per hour, why are you still insisting on using the 20-30/hour rate? Your own sources suggest that's only appropriate in machine spaces. And even 10 sounds high:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_changes_per_hour

MegaTraveller has some data on life support power requirements that might help you understand a bit better. MegaTraveller requires 0.001 Mw per cubic meter of hull space - 1000 watts per cubic meter. As with your example, most take that as not including the fuel space, there being little opportunity to breathe air in a compartment designed to store liquid hydrogen. So, taking your 714 cubic meters, the little ship is allocating 714 kilowatts to manage the atmosphere and water systems. That alone would power a few hundred homes. Skylab ran to 283 cubic meters, and it got by on 8 kilowatts for everything. That should tell you there's lots of power available for cooling.

Here's another idea to think about:

V/T=k

V1/T1=V2/T2

Fancy way of saying that if you compress a gas, it heats up. So, to heat a given volume of air, you compress it: the more you compress it, the hotter it gets. Then when you want to cool it, you let the pressure off; if you return it to its previous volume, it will have the same temperature it previously had at that volume, less whatever was lost while you were doing it. Doesn't take any time at all - the temperature MUST fall as the air expands.

 

[PFVA63]

You'd stick someone with the flu in a lifeboat? In a TL 10+ society? WTH for? If you need to isolate them, worst case scenario is putting them in a rescue ball in their stateroom. What I (and others) keep trying to say is if you don't intend to spit the dang thing out into space away from the ship, then why do you waste precious resources on a lifeboat? That's what the heck a lifeboat IS* - it takes you away from the primary vessel. There are at least five different ways to isolate someone aboard a ship that I can think of, BEFORE you have to resort to putting them in the ship's boat or a "lifeboat". And no medical scenario you have presented (the two examples I give - universal solvent and Alien - might) has given sufficient justification for either shooting the patient off the ship, nor for shooting everyone else off the ship.

* "A lifeboat is a small, rigid or inflatable boat carried for emergency evacuation in the event of a disaster aboard a ship."

Hi,

My intent was, in the event of an illness that is suspected of potentially having made its way into your life support systems and which may be a risk to the rest of the passengers and crew onboard the ship, that you could use the lifeboat/lifepod as a 'safe haven' and potential escape craft for those who have not shown signs of the disease. By segregating those that appear in an infectious state from those that are not currently exhibiting signs of an illness the thought would be that you could potentially delay or avoid the infection from spreading.

As for lifeboats in Traveller, a couple people have already noted the description of some of the examples currently in Traveller Canon.