Convert a CT Grognard--I Dare You!

[rust]

There are reasons to think that CT is "better" than MGT, and also reasons
to think that MGT is "better" than CT, but in the end the two games are
just different, and any preference is only a matter of personal taste.

Therefore a debate about which game is "better" seems about as meaning-
ful as a debate about whether fish is better than pork or a red-haired girl
friend is better than a black-haired one - a sad waste of time, for those
who post it as well as for those whom they expect to read it.

 

[rust]

So once again another thread in the Mongoose Traveller section turns into a chapter in Supplement Four's little crusade against MGT.

Do not close the board, do not go away - ignore Supplement Four and
post something interesting and useful for those who like Mongoose Tra-
veller.

 

[Supplement Four]

It may be just your style of posting.

Dunno. Maybe. But, my posting style was to respond to the things he said about CT that were incorrect.

He says he thinks MGT is more modern because it's got a unified task system, so I reply that one of the very first task systems was actually written for CT. Thus, debunking his notion that MGT is more modern because of it.

I think he got frustrated because, after he stated that MGT was a more modern version of CT, I challenged him to describe how MGT is more modern--and he was unable to come up with anything that wasn't refutable.

 

[Supplement Four]

I can see Allensh's post because of the posters quoting it. It seems to me he'd rather just have a raw-raw, yes-yes MGT section and ban anyone who legitimately criticises the game.

I will remind him that it was asked, upthread, why someone would pick CT over MGT, or MGT over CT. Anyone reading the debate can decide for himself. My debate partner stated his side of things, and I returned. That's what debate is all about.

 

[Poppyseed45]

Do not close the board, do not go away - ignore Supplement Four and
post something interesting and useful for those who like Mongoose Tra-
veller.

Truth in this there is. (okay, now I sound like Yoda).

 

[coliver988]

Dunno. Maybe. But, my posting style was to respond to the things he said about CT that were incorrect.

He says he thinks MGT is more modern because it's got a unified task system, so I reply that one of the very first task systems was actually written for CT. Thus, debunking his notion that MGT is more modern because of it.

I think he got frustrated because, after he stated that MGT was a more modern version of CT, I challenged him to describe how MGT is more modern--and he was unable to come up with anything that wasn't refutable.

the title of the thread was 'convert an old grognard', not 'let's do another battle of <version a> vs <version b>. I was following until it got derailed.

As for more modern - well, it IS in print. And in production with more stuff planned. Regardless of the modernity or not of the rules themselves.

So, given the choice between a 30 year game available in it's entirety for $35 on CD, or a currently published game that has new players excited by it, and is pretty compatible with said older game, that may be reason enough for an old grognard to try it out. Does he (or she) want to play with other old grognards or entice new players? If new players, I'd bet they want stuff in print. Electronic stuff is nice on a lot of levels, but I really prefer the visceral feel of a physical book in my hands. But if they just want to play with other old grognards and already HAVE the CT stuff, then there is not much reason to convert (although there are some nice tweaks that, while having been house ruled in CT, are now actually part of the rules)

Just my Cr0.02.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Re. S4: While he certainly has his moments, he hasn't had one of them in this thread. Not even close.

So... just as those who can't deal with his arguments contra MGT are free to ignore him, so others are free to ignore the shrill histrionics of those who, because they can't deal with said arguments, prefer to call them flames.

 

[Supplement Four]

Re. S4: While he certainly has his moments, he hasn't had one of them in this thread. Not even close.

I don't understand this "S4 ain't shining" stuff...I'm really confused about it.

The OP asked: "Okay, here's the question...is it worth the investment for me to buy the MGT starship volume?"

My answer to that is, "No."

I'm not going off-topic. I've been supporting my answer.



The next time I posted in this thread (Post #9), I cleared up the mistaken opinion that Classic Traveller wasn't written for a generic science fiction background.


Then, in post #15, I stated more about why I dislike MGT.



Poster Original_Carl asked: "What advantages does CT have over MGT?"

Most of my posts since that question have been answering that question.


My debate with Mencleus started just after that, and my posts have been rebuttals to his statements (many of the false or misleading or just uneducated about CT).



So, I don't quite "get" what a couple of people are upset about. It looks like a normal thread to me.

Are we not going to be happy until everybody likes MGT or is afraid to post anything that criticises that game?

I mean, I believe MGT is an inferior rules system, and the OP and at least one other poster were trying to compare the two. Am I supposed to blow feathers up their butts while screaming how great MGT is or tell them what I think is the truth?

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

S4, old sport... the point has been made...

 

[rust]

Am I supposed to blow feathers up their butts while screaming how great MGT is or tell them what I think is the truth?

Neither that nor repeating the very same arguments for the n-th time, both
would be equally boring.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The OP asked: "Okay, here's the question...is it worth the investment for me to buy the MGT starship volume?"
...
So, I don't quite "get" what a couple of people are upset about. It looks like a normal thread to me.
...
I mean, I believe MGT is an inferior rules system, and the OP and at least one other poster were trying to compare the two.

Ok, time for me to chime in.

The problem may be that you think 'it looks like a normal thread' and don't see anything wrong with every thread, no matter the topic, turning into a CT vs MGT discussion.

How does the Mongoose or CT task system relate to the OP question?

IMO, it would be nice if people stayed on topic.

 

[Supplement Four]

How does the Mongoose or CT task system relate to the OP question?

Simple. The OP asked, basically, if MGT was worth buying. One poster basically said that yes, it was, because MGT has a formal task system.

I rebutted that by showing how CT's non-formal, customizeable task system is better than MGT formal, generic task system. And, I added, if a formal task system is indeed needed, then CT has one--one of the first formal task systems ever created--the UTP.

Thus, CT has the best of both worlds, so why buy MGT when the OP already has CT?

It's quite on topic.

 

[far-trader]

Simple. The OP asked, basically, if MGT was worth buying.

Therein lies part of the problem imo. I think your interpretation is off by a bit.

blackirish asked:

1 - IN the MGT section (to elicit data from those using MGT)...

2 - ...to be "converted" (see topic header) to MGT (i.e. positives for MGT, not comparisons, not reasons for another system, just "what makes MGT worth getting").

NOT "if MGT was worth buying" (I sense an implied negative connotation in that from you ) which is what blackirish would have to decide after hearing what about MGT might lead to "conversion".

So no, (some at least of) your replies are not quite on topic.

I get your need to rebut every slight of CT but it's often misplaced I think. And the tone (even if you don't see it in every post others do by association with posts you've made before) does not come off well. I can even understand that it grates on you to see mistaken points made about CT and your need to correct them. If that was as far as it went there might not be a problem. But it seems time and again to devolve anytime you post in an MGT thread to a CT vs MGT slugfest. That has grown tiresome for many.

I'm not interested in seeing you not posting, even in the MGT area, just in seeing no more of the (perceived if not actual) "S4 touts CT better than MGT" posts

And for what it's worth much of the above could be flipped (substituting S4 for others and CT for MGT)

 

[robject]

Yeah, I'm old school. I'm so old, my SSN is 4...

Every now and then I see someone post MGT ship stats. I probably have the same reaction as an ESL student--it looks so familiar but what the hell am I reading?

Okay, here's the question...is it worth the investment for me to buy the MGT starship volume? Those extra bits I see sure look look crunchy...

Yes, if you want to play Mongoose Traveller. And MGT has a lot going for it, such as marketability (street cred?) to young gamers. So, if you're into MGT, then yes.

If you're a CT person, I think MGT starships isn't going to do it for you. You're better off finding out what the interesting bits of MGT ships are, and porting some version of them back into CT, thus creating your own homebrew system.

Now: if you're a CT person who can't find anyone within a 100-mile radius who plays CT, and you have some ready cash, then you still might want to think about MGT.

I used to be old school. Now I'm some weird kind of hybrid.

 

[Psion]

Well, I'm an old hand that started with CT. On the issue of universal task systems: I personally don't see the ad hoccness of CT as a boon, and find most of S4's suppositions about the whys and wherefores of why CT tasks were written the way they were to be mostly post hoc rationalizations. In reality, I think a game benefits from a integrated and well defined task system. If you want to venture beyond the defined task system, it's not like you can't spin your own. (In fact, I can think of one in the book right off the top of my head). It's been my experience from MT that you are much better off having a well defined and robust task system as a default.

As has been stated in another thread, the one thing I really adore about MongT over CT is the character generation. Characters come with what I feel is the right level of background, a bit deeper than CT Book 1/Supplement 4 character generation, but lacking the burden (and power inconsistency) of year-by-year generation from books 4-7. And I like that characters a fundamental level of competancy from the level 0 skills and skill packages in Mongoose Traveller that was something that was "tacked on" in the course of published CT adventures but never really filtered back to the character generation rules themselves.

 

[Allensh]

It's only as useless and the users make it Allen. When S4 ticks you off like this report the post. If he persists in it I expect he will be told to self moderate or face a ban. It's really that simple.

As for "other" boards moderation policies, I've seen some of it and don't want that kind of moderation here thank you very much. It's one reason I left "another" board.

I don't like your suggestion that just because you don't like it here for whatever reason that the MGT section should be closed. Instead may I suggest you exercise your own free will and simply show your disgust with your electronic feet and walk away.

I mistyped...I meant other sections of this board, not other boards altogether. I am not in favor heavy-handed moderation either in situations where people are willing to be considerate of others.

I apologize for my mistake. As for not coming here anymore, I am considering that.

Allen

 

[Allensh]

Now, hold on. If anyone here is going to convince me not to get involved in MgT it would be individuals like you who make comments like the above. (Of course I am still going to buy some MgT, Its Traveller isn't

Point is, if you don't like, have you reported it. If not then get over it. If you have reported it PM about it.

And there are many of us who read Mongoose Traveller section, and just don't post and we do support it.

Dave Chase

Apparently you missed the part where I said that "this board" meant the moderators and others who "run" this place (i.e. "the establishment") and not people like you.

Allen

 

[far-trader]

As for not coming here anymore, I am considering that.

I hope I wasn't unclear in my words, I don't actually want you to leave CotI, it was just an admission that sometimes it's the best option, save yourself the grief and all. I'd rather nobody leaves and we all keep putting thoughts to words here

Thanks for the clarification of the "other boards" bit.

 

[Allensh]

There are reasons to think that CT is "better" than MGT, and also reasons
to think that MGT is "better" than CT, but in the end the two games are
just different, and any preference is only a matter of personal taste.

Therefore a debate about which game is "better" seems about as meaning-
ful as a debate about whether fish is better than pork or a red-haired girl
friend is better than a black-haired one - a sad waste of time, for those
who post it as well as for those whom they expect to read it.

I can't recall, personally, ever saying that MGT was "better" than CT. Just that I like it and I like some of the things it does better. It really is a pointless argument.

The "better" game for you is the one you enjoy more, pure and simple.

What Mongoose Traveller is, is on the market in print format. CT is not at present, barring stores or distributors that may have copies of the reprints around somewhere. That, I suppose, means that over time more people may wind up playing MGT than play CT at present, and it might be harder for those who still want to use CT to find players for it. Maybe that's the source of the some of the ire.

Allen

 

[rust]

What Mongoose Traveller is, is on the market in print format.

True, and it receives ongoing support, from Mongoose as well as from
a number of third party publishers.

This means that there will be new material of various kinds for the fore-
seeable future, and this material will be closer to the current tastes and
expectations of most new - and many old - science fiction gamers than
Traveller material of versions published decades ago.

You only have to take a look at the stuff that has already appeared and
is selling well, from Spica's Career Book One to D.B.Gamedesign's ship ty-
pes (Venture Class, Ares Dragon Class) to Avenger's adventures (e.g. Ty-
pe S): They have a different, more up to date "feel" than older material,
simply because the authors have integrated more recent science fiction
ideas and influences into their work.

So, Mongoose Traveller is the "living", dynamic version of Traveller, one
continuing to grow with each new supplement and adventure and expan-
ding with each new setting, and always in contact both with the current
development in the sciences (quite useful for a plausible science fiction
game) and the contemporary mainstream of science fiction.
Compared to this, the older versions - as good as they are - are rather
"dead" and static, an unsupported closed corpus of material with almost
nothing new added to it, except by their devoted fans.

I am really not any kind of "Mongoose Traveller fanboy", in fact I only use
some few parts of it (character generation, ship building, trade system)
for my setting and campaign.
But I am well aware that any new Traveller material, any new and useful
Traveller ideas for my setting and campaign will come from Mongoose Tra-
veller only, because all the earlier versions are no longer productive.

For me, these are reasons enough to concentrate the Traveller part of my
gaming on Mongoose Traveller.
This horse is moving, and fast - from my point of view, the other Traveller
horses seem a bit too petrified to expect much from them.