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Corporate Traffic in the Imperium

I haven't done much work with the Far Trader trade volumes, but what I have done so far seems to make a lot of sense. Can anyone give me any examples where they don't work when compared to canonical statements? Remember, the number of canonical statements that mentions a specific number of ships AND their sizes, is extremely scanty.

Hans

No, I think Far Trader is compatible with what we know of Traveller, and doesn't conflict with anything I've seen printed about the OTU. As many have pointed out, GDW apparently didn't have an economist help design Traveller, so I'd expect to see considerable ambiguity, which isn't necessarily bad. I don't care to see everything nailed down so hard that it can't wiggle. (Or do I?)

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that there are side-effects or implications that, if carried to logical conclusions, would tend not to support entities like the Spinward Marches, but it's just a suspicion.
 
Speculative Trading

Has anyone thought that perhaps the Speculative Trading is somewhat similar to the China Traders of the 19th Century? With the turnaround of 3-6 months on their ships from China to England, everything they did was speculative.

They would buy tea from China, spices from India and the Middle East, and silks from Japan and hope that their cargos made it to England first to "take the cream of the market", i.e. get the best sell price. Each succeeding delivery for that season got a lesser sale price to the point that the last vessels to deliver sometimes even lost money on the deal.

I would think that using a negative die modifier on the value charts for being x hundreds of tons behind the first delivery and a large-ish positive modifier for being the first delivery should work pretty well, and still somewhat encourage the gamblers in the game.
 
Let me remind you of earlier discussions about the canonical conflation of X-boat routes and main trade routes. It doesn't make sense. X-boat routes use jump-4 ships, main trade routes use jump-2 and jump-3 ships.

I knew that main routes weren't XBoat routes. It didn't occur to me that they're J2 and J3; and I think that makes sense, too.

Very cool suggestion about how Oberlindes boosted its fleet (takeovers). That's in line with how they dealt with Akerut.

And thanks for the Oberlindes ships mentioned in TTA, Hans!

Re: Al Morai. Yes, even "low traffic" folks think that 57 ships is way too few by some multiple. I detect faint signs of consolidation and retcon.
 
Here's some fun facts about Trade Routes in Traveller and the Imperium:

Long-Haul Routes

Every time a megacorporation or megacorporate starship is mentioned in Merchant Prince and The Traveller Adventure, it seems to be in the context of long-haul transport and shipping through the Imperium, terminally connecting two distant and important worlds -- for example, Vland-Rhylanor -- in a chain of jumps made by a transport.

These routes, referred to as major trade routes in the Imperium, Long-Haul, Long-Distance, and main route, appear to use the Sector Routes as their stepstones from one major Imperial world to the other. Their overarching purpose or priority appears to be linked to the terminal worlds, more than any shipping the ships may do in between.

Sector Routes

Sector Routes are called Major Trade Routes, and are differentiated from Subsector Major Trade Routes by context. They appear to be identical to the segments of the XBoat Route which fall within a sector. Sector routes are said to link up the major worlds of a sector.

Subsector Routes

Subsector Routes are called Major Trade Routes, but only when speaking in the context of subsectors and subsector lines. These routes are generally feeders to the Sector Routes. Any local, lucrative route also qualifies as a Subsector Route, including segments of the XBoat Route which are close to and within the subsector, and routes of the sort Akerut had set up in Aramis subsector with its 5,000t J-1 Hercules-class ships.

Interface Routes

Interface Routes appear to connect many worlds within a subsector to other worlds across a territory boundary. These routes may range from 1 to 100 hexes long, though, so I expect Interface Lines to be operating from all worlds which have interesting trade codes (Cp In Ag etc).
 
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And now, my current conclusions.

Who uses Subsector routes?

Subsector lines (such as Oberlindes Lines and Sinzarmes), and a large number of fledgling lines. Sometimes a sector-wide line will use these routes, if they’re headquartered in this subsector.

How many ships are operated by these lines?

Perhaps one ship per world served, plus or minus according to route values.

What kinds of ships are on Subsector routes?

Patrol Cruisers, and up to 5,000 ton merchants rated jump-1 through jump-3.


Who uses Interface routes?

Interface Lines use these routes (such as Baraccai Technum, McClellan Factors, and Oberlindes Lines). Fledgling lines might, too.

How many ships are operated by these lines?

Perhaps one ship per world per route served, plus or minus according to route values.

What kinds of ships are on Interface routes?

Patrol Cruisers, and up to 5,000 ton merchants rated jump-1 through jump-3, plus one Lightning-class cruiser.


Who uses Sector routes?

Sector-wide lines like Al Morai use these routes.

How many ships are operated by these lines?

Perhaps one ship per world served, plus a route protector squadron (four ships average?), plus or minus according to route values.

What kinds of ships are on Sector routes?

Jump-4 escorts, and 1,000 to 5,000 ton transports and freighters rated jump-4.


Who uses Long-Haul routes?

Megacorporations use these routes (such as Naasirka and Makhidkarun).

How many ships are operated by these lines?

One ship per 1 to 6 worlds served per route, according to route value.

What kinds of ships are on Long-Haul routes?

Jump-4 (or better) escorts, and 1,000 to 100,000 ton transports and freighters rated jump-4 or better.
 
Re: Al Morai. Yes, even "low traffic" folks think that 57 ships is way too few by some multiple. I detect faint signs of consolidation and retcon.

Unless the size is wrong. Fifty-seven x 100,000 dTon ships is a lot of cargo and passengers.
 
Unless the size is wrong. Fifty-seven x 100,000 dTon ships is a lot of cargo and passengers.

It's too much in one basket though. It still only means 1 ship a week, going one way or the other.

And some 50Ktons of cargo and pax is way too much (again imo) for a week or two worth of whatever is valuable enough on most if not all of the worlds serviced to be transported off world.
 
For comparison with Far Traveller, when I run my route generation code on the Spinward Marches, the total trade volume (BTN * number of jumps) is 14 TCr, corresponding to about 1.4 billion dtons of cargo per year. As each ship jumps ~35 times per year (in FT), that's about 40 million dtons of cargo capacity, and probably indicates about 60 million dtons of merchant shipping (FT is agnostic on the size of ships).

Mora, specifically, is on one BTN-12 route (with Fornice); trade volume on that route will be about 2 million dtons per week. It is also on two BTN-11+ routes (with Jokette and Rhylanor), each of which will be getting in excess of 200,000 dtons per week (it also has a BTN-11 route to Trin, which is routed through Fornice). Most of the remainder is small change. Overall volume is probably 3-5 million dtons per week.
 
No, I think Far Trader is compatible with what we know of Traveller, and doesn't conflict with anything I've seen printed about the OTU. As many have pointed out, GDW apparently didn't have an economist help design Traveller, so I'd expect to see considerable ambiguity, which isn't necessarily bad. I don't care to see everything nailed down so hard that it can't wiggle. (Or do I?)
It may surprise you to hear, but I don't want to nail everything down so hard that it can't wiggle. Rather, I want to establish the parameters within which the wiggling takes place. The ballpark, if you will. They way things probably are if everything is average. Then keep in mind that things usually aren't average. Then add a few rules of thumb about the most common ways things may deviate from the average, and, voila, you have the tools to wiggle all you want and still stay plausible (or implausible in a plausible way :D).

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that there are side-effects or implications that, if carried to logical conclusions, would tend not to support entities like the Spinward Marches, but it's just a suspicion.

I sure hope you're wrong. If not, we'll just have to retcon something. But let's burn that bridge when and if we come to it.


Hans
 
If Al Morai can make money by running goods across non-optimized Jump-4 routes (i.e. the XBoat route), then the rules aren't telling all.

I know I'm joining a bit late, but perhaps there's a big degree of specialization in Al Morai's business.

The XBoat route is the Imperial communication network. There may be a lot of trade just associated with the XBoat system itself: bureaucrats; government cargoes; couriers; special cargoes for XBoat tenders/station, Navy and Scout personnel and cargo; and cargoes for transfer off the XBoat route.

With some of these, especially the government stuff, the Imperium might want to reserve capacity, to ensure things that are needed can get to where they are needed quickly. It's not to hard to imagine that there might be a premium associated with this, or a subsidy. Reserve tonnage/cabins might actually be booked, so ships that might under normal conditions be running empty and at a loss could be turning a profit.

I'll sign off by saying I'm not an economist at all, so if what I've written is rubbish - you can let me down without fear of bruising my ego (but let me down gently...)

Starviking
 
Here's something I've been pondering.

First, assume: Al Morai really only has 57 ships, and Oberlindes has hundreds of ships. If you can't accept that, then you'll probably just chalk up my bewilderment to 'anging on to outdated Imperial dogma...

Take Mora as a f'rinstance. Say it sees 1,000 ships arrive per week.

Who owns all these ships?

Al Morai owns maybe 1. If there are four competing sector lines, maybe they account for 4 more.

Maybe megacorps account for 5 more.

Maybe there are a handful of couriers, subsidized mail-carriers, tramp traders, and fledgling-line ships. 20 more ships.

Maybe there's a naval patrol of 20 more ships.

950 ships to go, and I'm running out of owners.

Could ships operated by local corporations - i.e. Moran and those in it's nearby systems, make a dent in that 950 figure?

Starviking
 
The XBoat route is the Imperial communication network. There may be a lot of trade just associated with the XBoat system itself: bureaucrats; government cargoes; couriers; special cargoes for XBoat tenders/station, Navy and Scout personnel and cargo; and cargoes for transfer off the XBoat route.

With some of these, especially the government stuff, the Imperium might want to reserve capacity, to ensure things that are needed can get to where they are needed quickly. It's not to hard to imagine that there might be a premium associated with this, or a subsidy.

Reasonable.

Could ships operated by local corporations - i.e. Moran and those in it's nearby systems, make a dent in that 950 figure?

Yeah, I think they'd have to.

Routes and Corporations are Specialized

I think you're spot-on about routes being specialized. The intent is that different routes serve differerent purposes, and that corporations cater to purpose. I guess that means when a corp wants to target something they're not primarily involved in, they create a subsidiary -- like Tukera's hold on the Aramis subsector is strictly via Akerut.



I've been tweaking my "Trade Routes" notes a bit:


Long-Haul Routes

Every time a megacorporation or megacorporate starship is mentioned in Merchant Prince and The Traveller Adventure, it seems to be in the context of long-haul transport and shipping through the Imperium, terminally connecting two distant and important worlds -- for example, Vland-Rhylanor -- in a chain of jumps made by a transport.

These routes, referred to as major trade routes in the Imperium, Long-Haul, Long-Distance, and main route, appear to use the Sector Routes as their stepstones from one major Imperial world to the other. Their overarching purpose or priority appears to be linked to the terminal worlds, more than any shipping the ships may do in between.

Megacorps own these routes (Makhidkarun, Naasirka...), using 1,000 to 100,000 ton transports and freighters rated Jump-4 or better, accompanied by escorts (also rated Jump-4 or better).


Sector Routes

Sector Routes are called Major Trade Routes, and are differentiated from Subsector Major Trade Routes by context. They appear to be identical to the segments of the XBoat Route which fall within a sector. Sector routes are said to link up the major worlds of a sector.

Sector-wide lines like Al Morai use these routes, with 1,000 to 5,000 ton transports and freighters rated Jump-4, and accompanied by escorts rated Jump-4. Some sector-wide lines could be subsidiaries of megacorporations.


Subsector Routes

Subsector Routes are called Major Trade Routes, but only when speaking in the context of subsectors and subsector lines. These routes are generally feeders to the Sector Routes. Any local, lucrative route also qualifies as a Subsector Route, including segments of the XBoat Route which are close to and within the subsector, and routes of the sort Akerut had set up in Aramis subsector with its 5,000t J-1 Hercules-class ships.

Subsector lines (such as Oberlindes Lines and Sinzarmes), and a large number of fledgling lines, use these routes. Some subsector lines are subsidiaries of sector-wide lines and megacorporations. Freighters and liners are often armed, displace up to 5,000 tons, and are rated Jump-1 through Jump-3. Patrol Cruisers serve as escorts or route protectors.


Interface Routes

Interface Routes appear to connect many worlds within a subsector to other worlds across a territory boundary. These routes may range from 1 to 100 hexes long, though, so I expect Interface Lines to be operating from all worlds which have interesting trade codes (Cp In Ag etc).

Interface Lines use these routes (such as Baraccai Technum and McClellan Factors). Other lines can also use these routes (Oberlindes Lines). Interface lines may be subsidiaries of other lines. Freighters and liners displace up to 5,000 tons, and are rated Jump-1 through Jump-3. Ships are usually well-armed, and accompanied by escorts rated Jump-3 or better.
 
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Originally Posted by robject
When I asked him specifically about Mora, he seemed to lump it in with the "Big and Bustling" category, which would mean on the order of tens of thousands of passengers (he batted around numbers like 10,000 and 25,000) arriving and leaving per week. 1,000 ships arriving per week, 1,000 ships leaving per week, and appx 5,000 ships berthed at any given moment.

For your example of a 20-billion-person world, it's literally one in a million people who travel in space per week.

Of course using CT you can't boil it down any further than those generalities. On the other hand, for the purposes of playing the game, you need go no further in that direction.

I'm starting another thread to muse on this.

Maybe this refers to 1000 to 5000 small, free-trader sized vessels between 100 and 1ktons.
 
Originally Posted by robject
When I asked him specifically about Mora, he seemed to lump it in with the "Big and Bustling" category, which would mean on the order of tens of thousands of passengers (he batted around numbers like 10,000 and 25,000) arriving and leaving per week. 1,000 ships arriving per week, 1,000 ships leaving per week, and appx 5,000 ships berthed at any given moment.


Maybe this refers to 1000 to 5000 small, free-trader sized vessels between 100 and 1ktons.

Funny, that; he set aside the flotsam representing tramp traders, yachts, and assorted bric-a-brac as being low volume and not part of the headcount.

So it seems the 1,000 number represents regular scheduled traffic of any size.

I'd expect megacorps to schedule 100,000-ton freighters to Mora. Maybe weekly, maybe monthly. I'd also expect to see subsidized fat traders in that count, loping in from the subsector main. And of course Al Morai's ATs.


BUT, it all depends on what kind of setting he's aiming for. Traffic really doesn't matter, except where it helps build a setting.
 
For comparison with Far Traveller, when I run my route generation code on the Spinward Marches, the total trade volume (BTN * number of jumps) is 14 TCr, corresponding to about 1.4 billion dtons of cargo per year. As each ship jumps ~35 times per year (in FT), that's about 40 million dtons of cargo capacity, and probably indicates about 60 million dtons of merchant shipping (FT is agnostic on the size of ships).

Mora, specifically, is on one BTN-12 route (with Fornice); trade volume on that route will be about 2 million dtons per week. It is also on two BTN-11+ routes (with Jokette and Rhylanor), each of which will be getting in excess of 200,000 dtons per week (it also has a BTN-11 route to Trin, which is routed through Fornice). Most of the remainder is small change. Overall volume is probably 3-5 million dtons per week.

interesting. is this available for general consumption ?
 
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