Alright, I promise, i won't use this thread to plug my High G-force idea. Anyway, in your traveller universe, where does the Imperium get its ships? Is it a government program, or, like our own, is it competing civilian companies with government contracts? Are shipyards privately owned corporations, or is it the mom and pop style where no two are similar? It is my hope to use a shipyard as the basis of a next mission, but i cannot find/make up enough details that don't unbalance that game. Can someone help me out?
Corporations and the Imperial Navy
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RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
All IMTU:
The Megacorporations naturally have a big hand in it.
The Imperial Family, naturally, is the single largest megacorp (the descendant of Zhunastu Heavy Industries), and it gets the biggest slices of the Navy's capital ship building budget. The other Megacorporations are right in line after that. Not many others get a nose in at this well-established trough. Megacorporations may subcontract or have subsidiaries do the work, and so it may appear to the uninitiated that other entities are doing the actual ship building from time to time.
Also, while Starports have "shipyard" capacity, it's usually pretty minimal. True "Shipyards", where giant "slipways" produce large runs of particular starships, and where the expertise is readily available for custom jobs, are relatively few by comparison. They're usually at the Pop-9 and A worlds, and usually TL-12-15 (few vessels in the Imperium are built below TL-12).
The Megacorporations naturally have a big hand in it.
The Imperial Family, naturally, is the single largest megacorp (the descendant of Zhunastu Heavy Industries), and it gets the biggest slices of the Navy's capital ship building budget. The other Megacorporations are right in line after that. Not many others get a nose in at this well-established trough. Megacorporations may subcontract or have subsidiaries do the work, and so it may appear to the uninitiated that other entities are doing the actual ship building from time to time.
Also, while Starports have "shipyard" capacity, it's usually pretty minimal. True "Shipyards", where giant "slipways" produce large runs of particular starships, and where the expertise is readily available for custom jobs, are relatively few by comparison. They're usually at the Pop-9 and A worlds, and usually TL-12-15 (few vessels in the Imperium are built below TL-12).
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
Looking at Supplement#5, it shows that the Azhanti High Lightning class ships were built at a number of different yards. Some are just identified by a location and a number (Gashidda No. 1) while others are names of corporations (Ling Standard). Some are just "Yard 11 No.1".
My guess, and that's all it is, is that these ships, and presumably others in the Imperium, were built at a variety of yards. I conjecture that yards like "Gashidda No. 1" and "Yard 11 No. 1" were Imperial Navy yards, while those like "Ling Standard" and "Tukera, et al" are corporate-owned yards.
A note in the text about the cruiser "One Thousand Years" tells us that the yard that built this ship (Yard 16 No.1) is located in the Markatch star system (she made her first flight in that system on New Year's Day, 1000). We also know that this system was where a battle was fought during the Imperial Civil War. As far as I can determine, no location for this world has ever been stated.
My guess, and that's all it is, is that these ships, and presumably others in the Imperium, were built at a variety of yards. I conjecture that yards like "Gashidda No. 1" and "Yard 11 No. 1" were Imperial Navy yards, while those like "Ling Standard" and "Tukera, et al" are corporate-owned yards.
A note in the text about the cruiser "One Thousand Years" tells us that the yard that built this ship (Yard 16 No.1) is located in the Markatch star system (she made her first flight in that system on New Year's Day, 1000). We also know that this system was where a battle was fought during the Imperial Civil War. As far as I can determine, no location for this world has ever been stated.
IMTU (which is, by no ways, the OTU), it depends on the polity.
The Solar Triumvirate's government partially owns its military industries, though the MegaCorps own their shares as well (60% of the shares are government-owened, the rest sold to the "public", that is, mostly, the Corps). Large naval shipyards are Navy-owned, but many of the components are manufactured elsewere, usually be corporations. Civilian/commercial craft and some of the lighter (para)military small craft are produced in wholly-owned Corporate shipyards, though the gocernment owns several quasi-civilian shipyards and design bereaus as well.
In the Serpentis Quadrant Alliance, shipyards are owned and operated by their workers, under a Shipyard Comitee; resources (and most request) for construction are supplied by the planetary councils. Large scale corporations are illegal in the Alliance, but small businesses are not - and there are several privately-owned, family-operated repair yards, a few of which could also produce commercial small craft and even light civilian starships. Shipbuilding requests made by the Alliance Congress go to the shipyards through the local Councils. A few components are sometimes produced by small family-owned firms or semi-commercial cooperatives, but most starship (as most other) production is done by worker-owned factories as part of the decentralised, democratic (to a degree) economy.
In the Consortium, the government itself is a cartel of MegaCorps, so starship production is done exclusively by StarDreams Inc.
In the Post-Planetary Matriarchate, true to its Belter heritage, each Clan builds its own starships; shipyards are operated by the Clans, and most Planetoid starship production is organized in the same way. The Matriarchate government owns a few shared shipyards, though, producing mosty civilian cargo craft and "shared" small craft/light starship military designs.
The Coreward Autonomous Zone has only a weak interstellar government; starship production is done in a planet-by-planet basis. On each world the ownership of shipyards is handled seperately - on one they might be nationalised, on the other - wholly owned by MegaCorps.
The Solar Triumvirate's government partially owns its military industries, though the MegaCorps own their shares as well (60% of the shares are government-owened, the rest sold to the "public", that is, mostly, the Corps). Large naval shipyards are Navy-owned, but many of the components are manufactured elsewere, usually be corporations. Civilian/commercial craft and some of the lighter (para)military small craft are produced in wholly-owned Corporate shipyards, though the gocernment owns several quasi-civilian shipyards and design bereaus as well.
In the Serpentis Quadrant Alliance, shipyards are owned and operated by their workers, under a Shipyard Comitee; resources (and most request) for construction are supplied by the planetary councils. Large scale corporations are illegal in the Alliance, but small businesses are not - and there are several privately-owned, family-operated repair yards, a few of which could also produce commercial small craft and even light civilian starships. Shipbuilding requests made by the Alliance Congress go to the shipyards through the local Councils. A few components are sometimes produced by small family-owned firms or semi-commercial cooperatives, but most starship (as most other) production is done by worker-owned factories as part of the decentralised, democratic (to a degree) economy.
In the Consortium, the government itself is a cartel of MegaCorps, so starship production is done exclusively by StarDreams Inc.
In the Post-Planetary Matriarchate, true to its Belter heritage, each Clan builds its own starships; shipyards are operated by the Clans, and most Planetoid starship production is organized in the same way. The Matriarchate government owns a few shared shipyards, though, producing mosty civilian cargo craft and "shared" small craft/light starship military designs.
The Coreward Autonomous Zone has only a weak interstellar government; starship production is done in a planet-by-planet basis. On each world the ownership of shipyards is handled seperately - on one they might be nationalised, on the other - wholly owned by MegaCorps.
Ben W Bell
SOC-14 1K
My take on it has always been, and I wrote this in TA#7 Fighting Ships, that the Imperial Navy mainly uses it's own design teams to build a prototype vessel (occassionally they'll just put it completely out to contract), and once prototyped they build a few and put the rest out to tender. So under this model the majority of hulls out there are built by the Megacorporations or individual worlds, some may be constructed by the Navy's own yards but most aren't.
Smaller craft are often completely Megacorporate run, somer fighters, VIP transports, couriers, freighters etc, either build by the Navy putting out a request for designs, or the corporations approaching the Navy of just building something the Navy likes the look of.
Smaller craft are often completely Megacorporate run, somer fighters, VIP transports, couriers, freighters etc, either build by the Navy putting out a request for designs, or the corporations approaching the Navy of just building something the Navy likes the look of.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The Imperial Navy also buils ships in their Depot systems. I have a theory that the "Yard 17, Yard 11" etc. that Oz mentions are the slipways in the Depot systems' shipyards.
Can't prove it though
I suppose it's a good idea to offer some of the shipbuilding contracts to megacorps and the shipyards of member worlds so that more ships can be produced in a shorter time, the economy and workforce on the chosen worlds gets a boost, and technological developments are fed down.
Can't prove it though
I suppose it's a good idea to offer some of the shipbuilding contracts to megacorps and the shipyards of member worlds so that more ships can be produced in a shorter time, the economy and workforce on the chosen worlds gets a boost, and technological developments are fed down.
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
We are told naval contracts are big business; why else would the Spinward Marches raise the money to build an additional AHL if they hadn't had the hope of getting some of the construction contracts assigned to that sector?
I agree that some of the ships were built in navy yards (probably at Depots, and those yards are likely the ones Sigg says, the ones identified only by numbers) while others were built by corporate yards. This is very like the naval building strategy used by the Royal Navy and the US Navy until very recently. There were naval yards which often (but not always) built the first ship of a new class, and then commercial yards were handed the plans and told to churn them out like cookies. Only in the last 30 or so years have both nations gone to having all ships built in commercial yards.
I agree that some of the ships were built in navy yards (probably at Depots, and those yards are likely the ones Sigg says, the ones identified only by numbers) while others were built by corporate yards. This is very like the naval building strategy used by the Royal Navy and the US Navy until very recently. There were naval yards which often (but not always) built the first ship of a new class, and then commercial yards were handed the plans and told to churn them out like cookies. Only in the last 30 or so years have both nations gone to having all ships built in commercial yards.
In the real military procurement world. There are always offsets. When a new aircraft or ship is built as much of the work as possible is farmed out to as many U.S. states (or countries, if it is an international effort). This is mostly to get politcal support for the project. thus you will find components being made in obscure places.
Its also not uncommon for the final integration of aircraft, such as the F16, to be built in the buyer's country. final integration is one of the least techinical activities, but the most profitable.
In the traveller universe, it's not inconcievable that a military star ship will be built at a remote shipyard with almost all its high tech parts imported in. I can even imagine massive jump drives, being configured into temporary starships to transport themselves to where thier ships are being assembled
In the traveller universe,
Its also not uncommon for the final integration of aircraft, such as the F16, to be built in the buyer's country. final integration is one of the least techinical activities, but the most profitable.
In the traveller universe, it's not inconcievable that a military star ship will be built at a remote shipyard with almost all its high tech parts imported in. I can even imagine massive jump drives, being configured into temporary starships to transport themselves to where thier ships are being assembled
In the traveller universe,
I also like the images conjured up by Egapillar's post. And I also like this one:
The high-population, high-TL designation marks these worlds as "Important Worlds" -- those worlds fought over or annihalated during the Hard Times -- and in light of Egapillar's post, it makes perfect sense that these worlds (plus Depots of course) would get the lion's share of government production contracts.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
That's quite a vision you have there, Egapiller. I can just see this huge ungainly thing, the jump drive for a Plankwell-class BB, with just enough powerplant and M-drive to move it, clustered with fuel tanks, hopping from system to system. </font>[/QUOTE]Would that also include a massive skeletal/jury-rigged jump grid?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Except that transporting the entire dTon weight of a vessel to some other point for final assembly will add 1000 Cr/dTon/Jump to the cost of the vessel. For a 30,000 dTon Light Cruiser, if we assume an average of at least 9 parsecs, 6 jumps (four J-1 and two J-2 jumps) for 18 parsecs of shipping (with some less and some more), then that going to add 180 MCr to the final cost. That's nothing to sneeze at. Oh well, pork barrel politics at work. Too bad there's no line-item on the starship design checklist for "political crap".
This is why I believe actual starship production at the large scale will concentrate in a few starsystems per sector, where they will specialize in starship construction, and where virtually the entire manufacturing process will occur, subassemblies and final assembly. Any shipping involved will be in brining in raw materials to fuel the manufacturing, or exotic materials or subassemblies necessary for custom finishing.
What was the rest of that?
Naval vessels cost money? Divorce yourself from that concept.
The imperial navy runs shipyards. Some are TL15 (or higher), most are of lower TL's. Some ship components require higher TL's but most components can be built at a much lower tech level. From the standpoint of resource efficiency the high TL shipyards would be building excess of the high TL items, 100dTon meson bays, TL15 reactors and so on.
The lower TL yards would be building mainly support craft (a TL12 tanker isn't really that much worse then a TL15 tanker, ditto for transport craft) and chasis's for higher TL components to be shipped in. Ignoring cost this would allow an increase in the ammount of high TL warships output.
Ignoring cost would be exactly what the navy would be doing.
Personally I like the concept of Low Tech staterooms, all oak and brass, inserted in bleeding edge warships.
"What price Humaniti?"
Motto of the Imperial Navy.
The imperial navy runs shipyards. Some are TL15 (or higher), most are of lower TL's. Some ship components require higher TL's but most components can be built at a much lower tech level. From the standpoint of resource efficiency the high TL shipyards would be building excess of the high TL items, 100dTon meson bays, TL15 reactors and so on.
The lower TL yards would be building mainly support craft (a TL12 tanker isn't really that much worse then a TL15 tanker, ditto for transport craft) and chasis's for higher TL components to be shipped in. Ignoring cost this would allow an increase in the ammount of high TL warships output.
Ignoring cost would be exactly what the navy would be doing.
Personally I like the concept of Low Tech staterooms, all oak and brass, inserted in bleeding edge warships.
"What price Humaniti?"
Motto of the Imperial Navy.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
As soon as accountants divorce themselves from governments.
How? Does the Imperial Navy not pay its vendors? How long does the IN think the vendors will keep on deliverying product for 0 Cr? Even Imperial Edicts would be useless against the massed will and might of all the great Megacorporations. And that will and might would be simultaneously mobilized for few things other than not getting paid (or an attempt to "nationalize" them).
The idea is nice, but it sounds like a lot of extra maintenance, plus extra fire hazard (with all that extra flameable material around).
As soon as accountants divorce themselves from governments.</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps I should put it another way. The balanced driver for major naval projects is not money. Time, output, manpower, combat effectiveness all come before money. Money is just an abstract placeholder for resources, and not a terribly good one at that. 2 teams of engineers, one with high morale and one with low morale paid the same have different outputs. The money involved is equal, the output certainly isn't.
quote: Originally posted by RainOfSteel
How? Does the Imperial Navy not pay its vendors? How long does the IN think the vendors will keep on deliverying product for 0 Cr? Even Imperial Edicts would be useless against the massed will and might of all the great Megacorporations. And that will and might would be simultaneously mobilized for few things other than not getting paid (or an attempt to "nationalize" them).</font>[/QUOTE]There are multiple references to TL14+ military gear only being available to the Navy and the Marines and to some Imperial Armies. If your company builds this gear you have very limited customer base.
If the choice is work for no money, or have all shareholders in your company publicly executed most companies will choose the safer path.
If the navy needs your company to build widget X, and you refuse, your company no longer has any interstellar trade. The price the navy pays will be determined by the navy, while there may be some negotiation attempting to price gouge the imperium may be looked at as treason.
I don't believe that even MegaCorps are allowed Anti-Matter devices. This leaves the Navy with a certain negotiation advantage.
Subversion on the other hand is a certain possibilty. Maybe not on the same scale as the US military industrial complex. It really does depend, IMTU treason has a certain "extreme prejudice" punishment which minimises the kickback possibilities.
Don't get me wrong, the Navy will normally try to pay a fair price for the equipment it procures, for the exact reason mentioned above, morale. But the navies goal is the protection of the imperium, anyone getting in the way is going to be chewed up by the gears. Refusing to accomodate the Navies wishes is a terminal kind of action.
What price Humaniti?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
That's a productivity question. Whether productivity is high or low is separate from the idea that money isn't required.
It's possible to theorize zero-money economic systems. The Imperium (without imposing radical changes) isn't one of them.
I think it's pretty obvious that if the government of the Imperium started treating the Megacorporations this way, that it would be a major civil war. The Megacorporations would not sit still. They each have private overt armies, including substantial and very experienced covert armies.
They couldn't beat the IN in outright war, but the behind the scenes war, that would be a different story. The Megacorporations have employees, in place, everywhere, including civilian (Megacorporate) technical consultants that will be on board many warships (as they are on some of today's warships). Yes, that would be a mess for the IN, with its warships coming to a halt on weird inexplicable technical problems.
If the government of the Imperium tried to exert its will in this manner upon an actual Megacorporation, it would be, as I mentioned, war. The others would unite (for the duration of the crisis) in fear of having the same thing happen to them.
Since the vast majority of wealth in the Imperium flows through the great Megacorporations, they are not a group that can lightly be bullied.
I don't see most of the processes working that way.
In the straight Imperium, there is no TL-16, which is the anti-matter weapons stage. I'm not sure why they enter the discussion. There is nothing indicating the Imperium operates in this manner. The IN does not hold the great Megacorporations at the point of a gun. The heads of the Megacorporations are nobles themselves, Counts and Dukes (without "clusters" or subsectors, to be certain, but high ranking nobles nonetheless), most likely. They hobnob with the Emperor. If the IN got nasty, the Emperor would hear about it. Of course, the reverse is true, as the Megacorporations can't expect to cheat the IN, otherwise the Emperor hears about it. It's a complicated balancing act where all sides are attempting a wild combination of simultaneously pleasing and cheating each other as much as they can to achieve their own private objectives.
True. However, we have also seen what happens, historically, in the OTU, to Emperors who perceive everyone to be a threat and start executing people left and right. They themselves are disposed of.
Well, at least IMTU, the IN is not so all powerful. The Megacorporations have bigger political muscle. If the IN was having real problems with a Megacorporation, they would go to the Emperor, and the intervention would go directly and privately through the top officers of the Megacorporation. It would be unlikely to come to public light.
However, it's extremely unlikely, as well, that individual budgetary negotiations would ever make it in front of the Imperium. The High Command might try their own negotiations with regional Megacorporate management (they're almost all going to members of the nobility at those elevated positions, and so they're members of the same exclusive club, even if they aren't necessarily friends). IMTU, it may well come down to who has the most political muscle in the individual circumstance. It will not always be the IN.
[Edit - this in response to Veltyen]
This is really the argument that command economies are leaner, hungrier, more efficient, by virtue of not having to assign a price decision point on the desirability of doing or having a thing.
This logic requires that one give up an important 1 to 1 map to reality - to wit, relative value, as denominated by "cost".
As e.g., the Soviets had a deuce of a time in estimating their own national production, they often used CIA estimates for their GDP, which were quite inflated (as justification by CIA for greater military expenditures and taxation) - and there were consequential incredible misallocations and outright wasting of resources. I can cite specific examples if desired, but I would ask that the reader accept the general ideas as factual.
They ("the apparatus") believed their own rhetoric, the dialectic required it, and it had unpleasant consequences.
Oil, steel, Chernobyl, pollution, lives.
Of course, we have this wastage, or at least it's pale shadow, in the freer societies, but we can ascribe a relative value of a thing, and decide if it is "worth" it - e.g. the debate over the Arctic wildlife refuge, or the pool of oil it shields from exploitiation - the command economy would just go get the oil, not being able to determine the real valued of either oil or wilderness.
It is never wise to make a decision independent of a metric of the relative value of a thing. By definition, a price system is conservative of value and resources. Cost is a survival tool.
Peace, friend,
sojourner
This is really the argument that command economies are leaner, hungrier, more efficient, by virtue of not having to assign a price decision point on the desirability of doing or having a thing.
This logic requires that one give up an important 1 to 1 map to reality - to wit, relative value, as denominated by "cost".
As e.g., the Soviets had a deuce of a time in estimating their own national production, they often used CIA estimates for their GDP, which were quite inflated (as justification by CIA for greater military expenditures and taxation) - and there were consequential incredible misallocations and outright wasting of resources. I can cite specific examples if desired, but I would ask that the reader accept the general ideas as factual.
They ("the apparatus") believed their own rhetoric, the dialectic required it, and it had unpleasant consequences.
Oil, steel, Chernobyl, pollution, lives.
Of course, we have this wastage, or at least it's pale shadow, in the freer societies, but we can ascribe a relative value of a thing, and decide if it is "worth" it - e.g. the debate over the Arctic wildlife refuge, or the pool of oil it shields from exploitiation - the command economy would just go get the oil, not being able to determine the real valued of either oil or wilderness.
It is never wise to make a decision independent of a metric of the relative value of a thing. By definition, a price system is conservative of value and resources. Cost is a survival tool.
Peace, friend,
sojourner
Not quite. There is still a price point as such, it just isn't based on money. The dissafection of the MegaCorps if the Navy does act high handed is an indirectly returned cost.
Something that always bugs me about modern project management techniques is that all things collapse into direct monetary value. For a model this works to some extent, but it overlooks one important fact.
A small group of fanatics can accomplish things that a legion of wageslaves can only dream of.
IMTU the IN are somewhat fanatical, and tend to be somewhat highhanded in their dealings. They do what they do for the survival of the Imperium first and foremost. Personal glory and monetary gain are secondary considerations for most Naval officers. Anyone placing their own gain ahead of the interests of the Empire thus faces a legion of extremely heavily armed fanatics.
Free market economies also fall into the trap of hidden costs. Thus the risk of being caught comes into basic business operations. It is far cheaper to dump toxic waste (or to repackage and feed it to schoolchildren) then to have it correctly disposed of. The difference in cost multiplied by the chance of being caught and the likely payout for wrongdoing gets slotted straight into the business case analysis. Where the likely punishment is confiscation of all corporate assets and execution of the board of directors this should minimise that kind of dealing. Compare to Enron(tm) for example.
The OTU Imperium and the Megacorps are entangled in their own economic net; the lines between the nobility and the capitalist classes are blurred. Stability is based on social stagnation; social stagnation in the Imperium is based on Feudal Technocracy, that is, the fact that most noblesd are also grand capitalists. Destroy the stagnation - destroy the Imperium.
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