Corporations and the Imperial Navy

[mike wightman]

IMTU I see it this way:
the Imperium controls the space between worlds, it therefore needs a Navy;
the Megacorporations exploit/develop manufacturing and trade opportunities, and therefore generate wealth;
some of that wealth goes to the Imperium as taxes, while yet more of that wealth ends up in the shareholders pockets (check out who the major shareholders in the Megacorps are );
it's not the Navy that tells the Megacorporations what to do, it's the other way around.

IMTU if a world is high pop, starport A, and TL 13-15 then there will be a major Megacorp involvement with that planet, possibly covertly.
It also helps explain how small, rockball, worlds end up as major planets, they are the ones with the local resources to build the ships in large quantities.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
it's not the Navy that tells the Megacorporations what to do, it's the other way around.

I agree, overall. But IMTU, they do it indirectly, through the Emperor's, Duke's, Count's, and Margrave's Courts. Megacorporate officials (the top members of which are very likely unlanded nobles), will rub shoulders and hob nob with the local "landed" (and ruling) nobility. (By "landed" I mean those nobles actually in control of what I call "Imperial Government Districts," sectors, subsectors, etc.)

 

[Elliot]

This discussion (as I knew it would) has become another rendition of the common theme of Imperial centrists versus dispersed Imperial economics.

Do remember MWM's maxim that the Imperium is a government of men not laws. I take that to mean that the Navy is not so all powerful in politics as many think.

But also remember that the Imperial family are substantial shareholders in all megacorps - so there is an avenue of influence through share certificates.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Do remember MWM's maxim that the Imperium is a government of men not laws.

Once more into the breach . . . oops, psyche your mind . . . and here you all thought I was going to pontificate on how I thought . . . oops again, I almost did.


Can someone please point me at this quote? Interview? I'd like to read it.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Do remember MWM's maxim that the Imperium is a government of men not laws.

Marc said it several times on the TML.

It is implied in the text of the Nobles articles in MT and CT.

It''s implied in the fill text in T4...

 

[Elliot]

It was in the 'about Traveller' on the FFE website along with 'there is no prime directive'.

Seriously - it is always interesting to discuss how coherent the Navy/Imperial authorities are in the Imperium. I believe the problem lies because the Imperium started out as bad (Kinunir, RSG) and became good. Some have put this down to various development stages and the early and later diminishing influence of the Star Wars empire.

I say keep the tension - make the Imperium as corrupt or benevolent as you like - just don't make one way or the other 'canon'.

 

[RainOfSteel]

I tend to view the Imperium, at the macroscopic scale, as impersonally blind; and at the microscopic scale, a wild admixture of all types, good, bad, ugly, and beautiful, honorable knight and villainous knave. All of whom and which follow their own paths to their own goals, some selfish, some selfless, but most hardly having a plan, much less going somewhere with their lives.

As far as strong vs. weak, I tend to view it as something that tries to be strong, succeeds here and there, fails here and there, and in the rest of the places just muddles on through.

 

[Shadow Bear]

According to TA #7 Fighting Ships, New designs are produced and tested at Depots. After a vessel is no longer cutting edge it is realeased to the megs corps for further production. This is the standard for major vessels. Sometimes smaller class vessels are put out for contractbut this seems to be the exception. It seems this would be good pratice as it could standardize designs for componets allow interchangeability for IN vessels. This in turn reduces the logistics problems for supplies and parts. Just go to the nearest Depot and they can either pull parts from stock of make them according to design specs. All Depots are supposed to have shipyards so any parts could be made.

 

[rvatsaas]

Except that transporting the entire dTon weight of a vessel to some other point for final assembly will add 1000 Cr/dTon/Jump to the cost of the vessel. For a 30,000 dTon Light Cruiser, if we assume an average of at least 9 parsecs, 6 jumps (four J-1 and two J-2 jumps) for 18 parsecs of shipping (with some less and some more), then that going to add 180 MCr to the final cost. That's nothing to sneeze at. Oh well, pork barrel politics at work. Too bad there's no line-item on the starship design checklist for "political crap".


Which is going to cost less? shipping the components or ferrying the entire vessel to their final destination? obviously it will cost less to ship the components, particularly the jump-drive that can ship itself.

I don't recall in classic traveller that a jump grid integrated into the hull was required.

 

[aramis]

First, a warning: I'm a wanna-be small-ship-heretic...

I see most of the ships of the navy being built at depots or certain megacorporate yards; I see most of the megacorps will concentrate at one or two systems per sector for capital ship production.

This concentration allows defense in depth of these vital assets; wars become about knocking out the other's depots and yards.

To be honest, this is inspired less by traveller and more by Starfire... but Concentrations of refined resource materials (billet metals, planked wood, bulk plastics, etc) are easier to ship than completed parts, and more economical by volume. So depot is going to be a load of massive factories churning out parts, and yards installing those parts, and building hulls.

Since I use hull grid based jump drives, a "Naked drive" won't happen. Drives are either built in the system of assembly, or are retrofits.

Some fo these blank parts might be nested hulls of certain ship types. The Type S wedgee comes to mind... blanks could be shipped without back-plates, nested, for about a 10:1 space savings... putting the costs of shipping down massively.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elliot:
Do remember MWM's maxim that the Imperium is a government of men not laws.

Marc said it several times on the TML.
</font>[/QUOTE]Asking for a date or a month would be a bit much, but how about a year, so I could narrow a search by a bit?

Originally posted by Aramis:
It is implied in the text of the Nobles articles in MT and CT.

I've got most of CT. The things I read all seemed to say that laws and rules were very important to the Imperium, especially that snippet about nobles having to obey all the same laws as normal citizens.

I'm missing large portions of MT, can you point me at something specific?

Originally posted by Aramis:
It''s implied in the fill text in T4...

My copy of T4 is still missing.

<tapping his foot, frustrated over a lost gaming book>

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Elliot:
It was in the 'about Traveller' on the FFE website along with 'there is no prime directive'.

I searched for a few minutes, but didn't find it.

Originally posted by Elliot:
I say keep the tension - make the Imperium as corrupt or benevolent as you like - just don't make one way or the other 'canon'.

I'd go with that, on this issue (but I still want Second Survey).

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Aramis:

I see most of the ships of the navy being built at depots or certain megacorporate yards; I see most of the megacorps will concentrate at one or two systems per sector for capital ship production.

That sounds so right . . .

Originally posted by Aramis:
This concentration allows defense in depth of these vital assets; wars become about knocking out the other's depots and yards.

<nods head in agreement>

Originally posted by Aramis:
To be honest, this is inspired less by traveller and more by Starfire...

I quite enjoyed that game.

Of course, I've finished off In Death Ground and am reading The Shiva Option right now, and I like them, so that rather prejudices my opinion about Starfire.

Originally posted by Aramis:
. . . but Concentrations of refined resource materials (billet metals, planked wood, bulk plastics, etc) are easier to ship than completed parts, and more economical by volume.

And aren't as lurative a target as finished goods to pirates/criminals (for those TU's where pirates are allowed).

Originally posted by Aramis:
So depot . . .

<snip of much goodness>

. . . down massively.

We think about 80% a like, apparently. I checked to see if you had a website, and I was surprised upon looking at the URL that I'd most likely never been there. So I clicked on the link in the post, tried to get to http://home.gci.net/~aramis, and couldn't get there.

"The requested URL /~aramis was not found on this server. Apache/1.3.12 Server at home.gci.net Port 80"

Did you switch hosts and forget to update the CotI profile, or is the webstie gone for now?