• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

General ** Could a 16-ton Light Fighter effectively operate as a pirate vessel?

** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations? Consider the limitations in armament, speed, and cargo space, and how it might adapt to these challenges.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
16 ton's isn't that light.. The fighters presented in early CT (HG-79 and CT core rules 77, 81, 82, and 83) are 9-10 tons...
Only with Sup 7 do we really see large fighters, and those are 50 Td heavy fighters... but a number of ships have the 10 ton fighters.

So, with the right cargoes, sure; you're only getting a ton or two, but if you manage to nab a ton of currency.... The problem is that one really can't disappear without jump, and so it probably needs to operate from a tender. That tender might even be just using 32 tons of hangar bay.

The value of the larger fighter varies by which ruleset... the 1 turret limit makes any fighter above minimum counter-productive... but the minimum varies by TL and whether it's laser or missile armed, or in HG-80 and later, Plasma or Fusion turrets; MgT adds meson turrets. And in (CT+HG-80)/TNE/T4/T20, armor. In MT, armor doesn't eat tonnage – just mass. Which is broken, but means you can have a 10 ton armored fighter.
I don't remember the MgT small craft design rules (because I've never used them, even when I ran MgT1). So I can't speak to the effectiveness, but the Meson Turret in a small fighter has a lot of potential as a lethal raider: get close enough to take out the bridge and then the engineering bay (which said, called shots may be beyond the rules as written; I don't recall, and am too lazy to look it up right now)... down powered and with the two crew heavy spaces wiped of crew.

But no pirate really wants to kill people; they want the risk of them going aggro to be doing the majority of the work. The ability to flash the bridge and clean it of life makes a meson fighter a potential big fish, enabling them to demand a certain container or two ...
 
** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations? Consider the limitations in armament, speed, and cargo space, and how it might adapt to these challenges.
So, a fighter limits you to a single turret, and a single turret limits you to Rating 2 in missiles or pulse lasers, rating 3 in beam lasers, or everything else is over your TL., but that's fine, most merchants don't have the agility to avoid those to-hit numbers. I'm guessing yoiur small fighter does have the agility to avoid the return fire? 6 agility and -2 for size make you a super tough target for most weapons. At TL 9, assuming you're not facing higher TL enemies, the best to-hit a weapon can get is 4 for a Rating 8 beam laser battery (which will also get autocrits, but needs a 12 to hit you) or Rating 7 with a missile bay. Or a Rating 6 with missile turrets, though you need a 1000-ton ship either way. The Rating 7 hits one better, so needs an 11 to hit you, far from a guarantee'd hit. But you take autocrits if it gets lucky on top of other damage. But that's a thousand tons to get either weapon, presumably an agile fighter can avoid that?

The issue is: What is your objective? And a fighter at that size can't carry enough boarders to take more than a tiny ship, and even then, a bit of bad luck and it's all over. My gut inclination would be surrender, invite them to board, and send my marine/stewards (from elsethread) to beat the stuffing out of any boarders.
 
Depends on how you define effective.

You could do Dick Turpin, and ask them to stand and deliver, by tossing their cargo out the back hatch, which you can scoop up.

You could have several smallcraft, one or more aiming their guns at the target, while another boards it, none of which needs to be a fighter, just be able to catch up with the freighter.

In theory, you could have the fighter carry a container with a boarding dock, where your compatriots could be seated, and used to receive the booty.
 
** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations? Consider the limitations in armament, speed, and cargo space, and how it might adapt to these challenges.
Yes, carry a decent weapon and a prize crew.

Capture e.g. a Free Trader, take it over, load the fighter, jump out...

You won't get far, but...
 
Take this CT version:
Code:
FL-0205521-020000-00001-0       MCr 16,9          16 Dton
bearing     1         2                            Crew=1
batteries   1         2                              TL=9
                   Pass=5 Cargo=0 Fuel=1 EP=0,8 Agility=5
Spoiler:
Code:
Dual Occupancy                                      0,4      21,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             0           16      
Configuration       Cone               2                      1,8
                                                           
Manoeuvre D                            5    1       2,2       1,1
Power Plant                            5    1       2,4       7,2
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 5 weeks                    1      
                                                           
Bridge                                      1       4         0,1
Computer            m/2                2    1       2         9
                                                           
Couch                                       6       3         0,2
                                                           
Cargo                                               0,4    
                                                           
Mixed Turret        Full                    1       1      
  Weapon            Missile            1    2                 1,5
  Weapon            Sand               2    1                 0,3
                                                           
Nominal Cost        MCr 21,08            Sum:       0,4      21,1
Class Cost          MCr  4,43           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 16,86
It can defeat a Free Trader (using LBB5, perhaps not LBB2) and carries a prize crew of five.

A Ship's Boat works even better...
 
Last edited:
The value of the larger fighter varies by which ruleset...
Agreed.

I don't remember the MgT small craft design rules (because I've never used them, even when I ran MgT1). So I can't speak to the effectiveness, but the Meson Turret in a small fighter has a lot of potential as a lethal raider: ...
I don't think Meson turrets are TL-9, or even TL-15...

MgT does not have Meson turrets, even as Exotic Technology. It does have Meson artillery, but that is bay-sized.
 
Take this CT version:
Code:
FL-0205521-020000-00001-0       MCr 16,9          16 Dton
bearing     1         2                            Crew=1
batteries   1         2                              TL=9
                   Pass=5 Cargo=0 Fuel=1 EP=0,8 Agility=5
Spoiler:
Code:
Dual Occupancy                                      0,4      21,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             0           16     
Configuration       Cone               2                      1,8
                                                          
Manoeuvre D                            5    1       2,2       1,1
Power Plant                            5    1       2,4       7,2
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 5 weeks                    1     
                                                          
Bridge                                      1       4         0,1
Computer            m/2                2    1       2         9
                                                          
Couch                                       6       3         0,2
                                                          
Cargo                                               0,4   
                                                          
Mixed Turret        Full                    1       1     
  Weapon            Missile            1    2                 1,5
  Weapon            Sand               2    1                 0,3
                                                          
Nominal Cost        MCr 21,08            Sum:       0,4      21,1
Class Cost          MCr  4,43           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 16,86
It can defeat a Free Trader (using LBB5, perhaps not LBB2) and carries a prize crew of five.

A Ship's Boat works even better...
Small craft is the way to go.

My approach would be to small craft up for boarding and/or looting, and the Corsair as mothership and distant support. High cheap Gs for course matching and the Corsair has extra loot cargo and jump capacity.
 
** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations? Consider the limitations in armament, speed, and cargo space, and how it might adapt to these challenges.
Independently ... on it's own ... SOLO ... it wouldn't be all that effective as a pirate.
A TL=9 16 ton Light Fighter could be successful as an attacker ("heave to and prepare to be boarded or we shoot!") but in terms of capture/prize/ransom/theft you've got a problem. A 16 ton Light Fighter CAN DESTROY rather effectively ... but it's going to need "backup" to do more than just destroy.

A 16 ton Light Fighter is going to struggle with being able to carry a prize crew for boarding, if the intent is to capture and take the target of piracy. For any kind of capture/conquest you need additional crew. As soon as the pilot+gunner leave the Light Fighter (leaving it uncrewed) it becomes "deadweight" as a non-combatant. Under MOST boarding scenarios, a small craft (emphasis on SMALL) of such low tonnage can have (for the tech level) extremely efficient weaponry and agility, but it can't carry extra crew for boarding operations (with a high probability of success).

Remember, the name of the game in piracy is to STACK THE DECK so heavily in your favor that your prey are cowed into Anticipatory Obedience. That way, compliance is the easier/cheaper option than defiance.

Having a "big stick" is useful for intimidation, but if you have to USE it you're very likely to break something you want to keep for yourself (and then fence later on at a profit!).



A 16 ton Light Fighter can do the intimidation/damage/destruction part ... but on its own it'll have trouble with the follow through of capture/conquest/indefinite compliance when operating solo, if for no other reason than the fact that once a "common merchant" (Free/Far/Fat Trader, etc.) stops maneuvering, it can jump within 40 minutes (2 combat turns) if it has the fuel to do so (and hasn't been damaged by an exchange of fire). So for any kind of piracy action, you're really going to want to have a parent craft (preferably jump capable) "nearby" which can maneuver in to dock with the "common merchant" who has surrendered. That way, any prize crew along with docking maneuvers isn't being done by the Light Fighter threatening to shoot the prize (thereby "keeping them covered and under scrutiny" during any docking and boarding maneuvers by the other craft).



But that's the "solo" option.
As soon as you've got multiple Light Fighters working together ... and especially if some of them are towing external loads (such as 16 ton Cargo Boxes loaded with boarders) things change rather dramatically.

If you've got as little as 2x Light Fighters + 1x 16 ton Box (pick variety) being towed externally by one of the Light Fighters, now you've got your Attacker+Boarder situation under control.

Alternatively, you can have a Free Trader that keeps a 16 ton Light Fighter in a portion of the internal cargo bay converted for use as hangar space by the 16 ton Light Fighter. The Light Fighter forces a surrender by the target and the Free Trader moves in to dock with the boarding crew to complete the capture.



Perhaps a better way to think about it is that a 16 ton Light Fighter is a "tip of the spear" ... but you need the "shaft of the spear" behind that spear tip in order to make it really dangerous as a weapon (and therefore useful as a weapon to force surrenders without a fight). You use it to threaten ... but you don't want to have to USE it to damage what you're trying to capture and steal for yourself. A spear point without a shaft behind it is basically a makeshift dagger (which is good for some things, but not everything when you're attempting piracy).
** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations?
The answer to the question is YES ... but the 16 ton Light Fighter needs to be part of a piracy operation, rather than the Be All End All of piracy all by itself. A solo Light Fighter attempting piracy is going to quickly wind up in a "dog catches car" type of situation.

CNoaotE.jpeg

But if there's another craft following up behind the 16 ton Light Fighter operating in mutual support, then YES IT CAN be a part of piracy operations ... a potentially unfairly effective part of a piracy operation! 🏴‍☠️

The best way to think of a 16 ton Light Fighter (in context) is to make it a "mobile turret" that can force a surrender, but then have another craft (take your pick) operating as a mothership move in for the boarding action while the Light Fighter keeps the target "under the gun" and "covered" in case there are any "sudden moves" that can be taken as defiance. So what you wind up with is more of a "pincer attack" in which the Light Fighter is simply a (necessary) part of the piracy operation, rather than being the entirety of the operation all unto itself.
Take this CT version:
FL-0206611-420000-10001-0 MCr 20,0 16 Dton
bearing 1 1 1 Crew=2
batteries 1 1 1 TL=9
Pass=4 Cargo=0 Fuel=1 EP=1 Agility=0
To be fair, that's a LBB5.80 design ... but with Agility=0 it's basically WORTHLESS as a combatant.
You can deliver a boarding party of 4 with it (and most Free/Far/Fat Traders only have a crew of 4 themselves, so good odds for a prize crew!) and that's about it. If this thing gets shot at, it's almost certainly going to be HIT, which will result in "bad day all around" for anyone aboard REALLY QUICKLY.

I prefer this version, which uses LBB2.81 standard A/A drives for maneuver and power plant, instead of LBB5.80 custom drives.
Code:
Fighter Strike/Fighter Escort (TL=9)
16 ton small craft hull, configuration: 1
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
5 tons for LBB2.81 standard A/A drives (codes: 6/6, TL=9, EP=2) (Agility=6 requires EP: 0.96)
1 ton for fuel (09d 21h 17m endurance)
4 tons for bridge (crew: 2) (pilot, gunner)
2 tons for model/2 computer (TL=7, EP: 0)
1 ton for mixed triple turret: missile, pulse laser, missile (TL=9, codes: 1/1/1, EP: 1, 3 missiles per battery, 12 reloads)
2 tons for 1 small craft stateroom
* External Docking: 184 tons capacity
1 ton for missile magazine (20 reload capacity)

= 0+5+1+4+2+1+2+1 = 16 tons
The way that I think about this option is that it was originally designed for system defense for use in support of other system defense craft. Mission tasking could be anything from interplanetary "lane patrols" (thanks to 9+ day fuel endurance and small craft stateroom for crew) to acting as "mobile artillery" for (orbital) bombardment (using missiles) of ground installations and bases used by criminal organizations. A pulse laser is included for "shot across the bow" type warnings (which do not expend precious missile ordnance) and potentially for self-defense in an anti-missile role.

It packs a surprising amount of (para)military capability into an extremely small package which can take on LOTS of different "tip of the spear" types of mission roles, but will need follow-on backup to "complete any victories" and "mop up any opposition/take prisoners" once the shooting has stopped. It's not a "best at anything" type of design, but rather a "good enough" for a wide variety of mission tasking to be dangerous to adversaries (which is all it really needs to be). It's a "mobile missile/laser/missile turret" that is so agile it's difficult for adversaries to hit (if they're also limited to TL=9).

As tech levels advance into the TL=10+ range, the advantages of this design diminish (as higher computer models become available), so this concept does become obsolete/vulnerable by TL=13+ (in LBB5.80 combat rules), but until then it's "good enough for government work" ... and via the second hand surplus market, enterprising merchants (who want to improve their own security measures) and avaricious pirates who want to "stack the deck" a bit more in their favor against their preferred chosen prey ... :unsure:
Small craft is the way to go.

My approach would be to small craft up for boarding and/or looting, and the Corsair as mothership and distant support. High cheap Gs for course matching and the Corsair has extra loot cargo and jump capacity.
THIS. (y)
 
** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations? Consider the limitations in armament, speed, and cargo space, and how it might adapt to these challenges.
Cargo mostly, probably no.
 
To be fair, that's a LBB5.80 design ... but with Agility=0 it's basically WORTHLESS as a combatant.
Agreed, I noticed that too late, so I updated to a Ag-5 craft.
Code:
FL-0205521-020000-00001-0       MCr 16,9          16 Dton
bearing     1         2                            Crew=1
batteries   1         2                              TL=9
                   Pass=5 Cargo=0 Fuel=1 EP=0,8 Agility=5
No Armour, not much of a computer, but decent agility. Unlikely to be hit by a small trader.


I prefer this version, which uses LBB2.81 standard A/A drives for maneuver and power plant, instead of LBB5.80 custom drives.
...
16 ton small craft hull, configuration: 1
5 tons for LBB2.81 standard A/A drives (codes: 6/6, TL=9, EP=2) (Agility=6 requires EP: 0.96)
That was a lot of house rules at the same time...
 
Last edited:
My approach would be to small craft up for boarding and/or looting, and the Corsair as mothership and distant support. High cheap Gs for course matching and the Corsair has extra loot cargo and jump capacity.
Agreed.

No need to risk the mothership docking with the prey.
 
Light Fighter: Using a 16-ton hull, the light fighter is capable of 6-G acceleration, carries 1 ton of fuel tankage, and has a crew of two. The fighter includes a computer Model/1 and can mount one beam or pulse laser; the remaining weapons are missile racks or sandcasters. The light fighter has 10 tons of excess space, and costs MCr16
 
Last edited:
Medium Fighter: Using a 30-ton hull, the medium fighter is capable of 6-G acceleration, carries 2 tons of fuel tankage, and has a crew of two. The medium fighter includes a computer Model/1 and can mount up to two beam or pulse lasers; remaining weapons must be missile racks and sandcasters.
The craft has 10 tons of excess space available, and costs MCr20.
 
Last edited:
Heavy fighter: Using a 50-ton hull, the heavy fighter is capable of 6-G, carries 2 tons of fuel, and has a crew of two. The heavy fighter includes a computer Model/1 and can mount up to three beam or pulse lasers; remaining weapons must be missile racks and sandcasters. The heavy fighter has 30 tons of excess space available, and costs MCr30.
 
Light Fighter: Using a 16-ton hull, the light fighte ... The light fighter has 10 tons of excess space, and costs MCr16
Medium Fighter: Using a 30-ton hull, the mediu ... The craft has 10 tons of excess space available, and costs MCr20.
Heavy fighter: Using a 50-ton hull, the heavy fighter is ... The heavy fighter has 30 tons of excess space available, and costs MCr30.

A bit excessive free space? Using the same system as the small craft in LBB2'81, it would be:
Light: 4.3 Dt
Medium: 11.9 Dt
Heavy: 24.5 Dt

Given the cost of a 10 Dt fighter of MCr 18 and a Cutter of MCr 30 (with a computer), they should be a bit more expensive?
 
** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations? Consider the limitations in armament, speed, and cargo space, and how it might adapt to these challenges.
If the challenge is to figure out how to 🏴‍☠️ Be A Pirate 🏴‍☠️ using a single small craft, I would argue that a 16 ton Light Fighter is going to be inadequate to the task.

However ... a 30 ton Ship's Boat :unsure: would do quite nicely as an armed 6G pirate raider that can operate solo. There's enough internal space to provide accommodations for the small craft crew + boarding party, since you've got 13.7 tons to play around with internally.
2.0 tons of fuel is sufficient for 19d 13h 55m of endurance at full 6G/Agility=6 maneuvering power.
  • 1 ton for fire control+turret armament (missiles only) (EP=0)
  • 2 tons for model/2 computer (EP=0) (Agility=6)
  • 6 tons for 3x single occupancy small craft staterooms (pilot, gunner, medic)
  • 4.5 tons for 9x Low Berths ("frozen watch" boarding party/prisoner holding "cells")
  • 0.2 tons for additional fuel (increase 1.8 tons to 2.0 tons of fuel)
 
Agreed.


I don't think Meson turrets are TL-9, or even TL-15...

MgT does not have Meson turrets, even as Exotic Technology. It does have Meson artillery, but that is bay-sized.
As far as I can tell, High Guard for MgT2 doesn't even have meson bays (and meson guns are described as having their effects reduced in planetary atmospheres, for whatever reason).
 
Alternatively, you can have a Free Trader that keeps a 16 ton Light Fighter in a portion of the internal cargo bay converted for use as hangar space by the 16 ton Light Fighter. The Light Fighter forces a surrender by the target and the Free Trader moves in to dock with the boarding crew to complete the capture.
A far Trader should, in most rule sets, be able to carry several small craft externally and still make jump-1. A fighter and a launch, for example, allowing boarding without having to wait for the slow trader to catch up to the intercept.
 
Back
Top