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Coyns and the major races

Wouldn't the Virus be to Grandfather what the Mule was to Seldon?
I like the idea of the Droyne with a future destiny without Grandfather (the Jerk) Genius' are never quite as smart as they think they are.

The chips on Cymbeline might be the remains of an experiment by one of Grandfathers children. Or natural, either way I personaly like the idea of Virus being grandpa' free.
But I have to say "the Droyne psionic gestalt psychokinetically remoulded the coyn as events dictated" sounds a lot like Virus.

@Ishmael
"So which race will be the one to be exterminated?...hehehehe"
Probably one of the Furries, Aslan would make Donnacha happy. However the Dominate taking over the K'Kree might also make a good fit. The PCs have already met Cybernetic K'Kree warriors. Virus completely "Dominating" the K'Kree might be a very scary prospect.


BTW, I don't have any 1248 stuff. The playtest stuff seemed like it wasn't my thing. Is there anything in it like this/ usefull to steal/ tie into. Or does it go off in another way?
 
I don't think it should be the Vargr...
I've always had this idea in the back of my mind that the Ancient's War was because Grandfather did experiments on uplifting the Vargr, whereas humans were his children's project.

Maybe cyber-k'kree are virus' "tools" to eradicate humans and humanity facing this threat is what forces the Imperium to unite. This might be Grandfather's attempt to eliminate his children's mistake once and for all. ( he did watch for a while to see what we monkey-boys would do. )

Not that any of this would matter.....all humans would see is that Virus is taking over the k'kree to use as weapons to take over everything.

just an idea....
 
I followed 1248 at first, but rapidly grew disenchanted with it. Obviously, in a product designed to make money, the consideration of the fanbase/customers needs to be taken into account. Given the idiot rage that the Virus elicits in a lot of the Traveller fanbase, obviously 1248 was going to lean more towards their desires. Due to that direction alone, I don't have much interest in 1248.

I wasn't a big fan of their background buildup, either - how most of the factions survived and did these (unrealistic to me) endgame attacks on others and how there's a fourth Imperium growing already. It feels too much to me like it's just another attempt to make another edition of "small ships in the Imperium" Traveller with J1 traders outearning J2 traders and all the rest unchanged from CT. Obviously, specifics are going to be different but that perception I have has really turned me off of 1248.

All that said, I'm sure that 1248 is a good place to mine for ideas for your own game - and the materials are available via PDF I believe, which is great for "mining" purposes - I hate the physical space that the books I keep around for source material take up.
 
Thanks. Sounds like confirmation that 1248 isn't for me so. I have also heard some attacks described as risk-life big attacks far from home. The freedom league sounds like a poor relation to the Reformation Coalition. I'm sure one day I'll give it a look, but my next big thing will be D&D4.

Unless you guys think I'm missing out on something awesome.
 
I dunno, it's kind of a mixed bag - I think some of the ideas brought forth from the concept are interesting (e.g., the origin of the Empress Wave), but I agree about the fractionalism of charted space, especially the Regency.

It's worth mining up to a point - that point being a bit of a moving historical target based on what you are comfortable with as a GM. I think the first sourcebook is a must-have, at least to get some good ideas for the first 10 years or so of the new century, up to, and possibly including the Curtain War.

After that (or even before!), it's up for grabs. But I think Out of the Darkness is still worth the money, even as a resource.
 
Wouldn't the Virus be to Grandfather what the Mule was to Seldon?
I like the idea of the Droyne with a future destiny without Grandfather (the Jerk) Genius' are never quite as smart as they think they are.

The chips on Cymbeline might be the remains of an experiment by one of Grandfathers children. Or natural, either way I personaly like the idea of Virus being grandpa' free.
But I have to say "the Droyne psionic gestalt psychokinetically remoulded the coyn as events dictated" sounds a lot like Virus.

Well, whichever way you take it has loads of possibilities. For example, you could even say new Coyns were introduced by Yaskoydray's servants thiinking that it would be what he (it?) would do...
 
I'd rather not think of Grandfather being involved in this change at all - Grandfather could have easily planned ahead for this sort of thing - the Droyne psionic gestalt psychokinetically remoulded the coyn as events dictated, as planned for by Grandfather.
It's part of the canonical background information. You know, not the bits that the people of the Imperium think they know and write about in the Library Data, but the kind the author wrote about so that you and I know about it even though hardly anyone in the OTU know it.

Coyn sets found in Ancient sites range in size from 6 to 38 pieces. [Imperial Encyclopedia_ p. 21]. There is no description of any Ancient coyn sets. I've made two assumption s: a) That the lesser sets found are subset of one standard 38-coyn set, not multiple alternate sets, and b) That the Ancient coyn set is identical to a pre-Ancient coyn set used by pre-Ancient Droyne in prediction ceremonies.

Grandfather introduced the coyns as a tool of casting to a number of Chirper worlds around -75,000. [Droyne pp. 6 and 45]. On some worlds the Chirpers gained the ability to caste, on others it didn't work (Vanejen, described in Research Station Gamma, is an example of the latter).

Grandfather modified the coyns on later visits and introduced the Aslan, Hiver and K'kree coyns (at least). [Secret of The Ancients p 32].

Here's the Ancient coyn set I came up with:

Code:
Worker     Warrior      Drone       Technician   Sport    Leader
Void       Soil         Air         Gas          Water    Fire
Darkness   Cold         Noise       Signal       Heat     Light
Genesis    Aspiration   Sacrifice   Defeat       Death    Achievement
Beast      Mercenary    Voyages     Justice      Chance   Phoenix
Hissayt    Emissyob     Ayvaylk     Bestoy       Nebbay   Hayyarn

Droyne     Eskaloyt
The six you don't recognize are six prey animals native to Eskaloyt. Used by primitive Droyne to perform hunt magic. Obviously they were of little use to Droyne living off Eskayloyt.

The first Grandfather set (in -75,000) consisted of 38 coyns and included one with a human and one with a flame [RSG pp. 4 and 38].

I haven't worked out a suggestion for the "medieval" coyn set. I think it would lack all six prey animals and instead have various potential threats to Droyne of that era. Probably humans were there from the start.

Grandfather long ago determined that the inability of the Droyne to adapt to change is what made them evolutionarily uncompetitive. The coyn are the "crutch" to simulate that "fire in the belly" that other races have that Droyne don't. It's only natural that if a situation arose that required the Droyne to adapt to (ie; a new order of life, not just a race) the coyn would do it on their own - a future planning tool that can't take into account major factors isn't much a planning tool, after all.
The major purpose of the coyns is to enable Droyne populations that have lost the ability to caste naturally to do so.


Hans
 
Nah, Grandpa's too slick for that. With all of his psychohistorical mojo, he would have been able to predict Virus and have a time capsule open up at just the right place and time. :)
Except in time-travel campaigns, I really, really dislike causality violations. I know there are a couple of canonical examples (like that pesky artifact the Zhodani found), but I try really hard to ignore them (I find it amazing that so many people who strain at mere violations of the Laws of Thermodynamics will cheerfully swallow precognition without a murmur).

If there's any way to explain the coyns without resorting to precognition (and as I mentioned above, there is), I'll lobby for that explanation till I'm hoarse.

Keep the Traveller Universe free of Causality Violations! Ban all precognition!


Hans
 
Hans:

Precognition is canonical in both rules and setting.

It is not intended, I believe, to be "This Shall happen" (a causality violation), but instead, the cosmic gestalt points towards this outcome. So, if one can buy a cosmic gestalt, then anything known to another member of the gestalt is available to all in the gestalt.

(Utilizes Gestalt's theory of the collective subconscious... mainstream psychology, tho falling from favor.)
 
Hans:

Precognition is canonical in both rules and setting.
I know.

It is not intended, I believe, to be "This Shall happen" (a causality violation), but instead, the cosmic gestalt points towards this outcome. So, if one can buy a cosmic gestalt, then anything known to another member of the gestalt is available to all in the gestalt.

(Utilizes Gestalt's theory of the collective subconscious... mainstream psychology, tho falling from favor.)
The artifact that the Zhodani found sure sound like a causality violation. and I assume that by precognition in the rules, you were referring to the rule that told the ref to give Droyne PCs die roll DMs based on the result of a coyn ceremony (If you meant something else, please elucidate).

I don't understand what you're getting at here.


Hans
 
Except in time-travel campaigns, I really, really dislike causality violations. I know there are a couple of canonical examples (like that pesky artifact the Zhodani found), but I try really hard to ignore them (I find it amazing that so many people who strain at mere violations of the Laws of Thermodynamics will cheerfully swallow precognition without a murmur).

If there's any way to explain the coyns without resorting to precognition (and as I mentioned above, there is), I'll lobby for that explanation till I'm hoarse.

Keep the Traveller Universe free of Causality Violations! Ban all precognition!

And I'm not saying Yaskoydray would have psychic means of prediction or precognition. His advanced intellect would most likely have discovered an advanced form of psychohistory, which, following the original Foundation, anyway, a mostly mathematical exercise.

So I am saying that Grandfather would be able to predict this based on the data available to him regarding charted space. Since there is, for all intents and purposes in the OTU, no advanced civilization within thousands of parsecs of charted space, I'm under the opinion that Yaskoydray has collected all the data he needs about those worlds and what species is where and can resonably calculate the rise and fall of human empires.
 
So I am saying that Grandfather would be able to predict this based on the data available to him regarding charted space. Since there is, for all intents and purposes in the OTU, no advanced civilization within thousands of parsecs of Charted Space, I'm under the opinion that Yaskoydray has collected all the data he needs about those worlds and what species is where and can reasonably calculate the rise and fall of human empires.
Prediction by calculations (~ psychohistory) would certainly be preferable to precognition, but there's no need for either. There's a perfectly simple (and canonical) explanation for why Aslans, K'Kree, and Hivers are featured on modern coyn sets: After the Final War, Yaskoydray retired to his private pocket universe and only visited the original universe every once in a very long while. In -75,000 he noticed that all (all?) Droyne communities were in a very parlous state, having forgotten how to caste naturally. He devised a way to use coyns as a mental crutch that allowed some of those populations to caste (Some populations were so far gone that they couldn't caste even with the coyns; they became (or remained) Chirpers). He returned to our universe from time to time, revising the coyn set, removing old and introducing new coyns. By the time of his last visit (around -1000), the Aslans had become a major force to reckon with, so Yaskoydray introduced an Aslan coyn, as he had earlier introduced K'Kree and Hiver coyns. No magic, no precognition, just good old hindsight. The quickness of the hand deceives the eye.


Hans
 
Well, I think it depends on how nitpicky you want to be about things. An argument could be made for the fact that the Aslan weren't on the scene when Algine was colonized by humans (and thus closing Grandfather's last portal). But hey, its all in good fun, and it gives enough wiggle room to fill in interesting details by the GM. :)
 
Well, I think it depends on how nitpicky you want to be about things. An argument could be made for the fact that the Aslan weren't on the scene when Algine was colonized by humans (and thus closing Grandfather's last portal).
What? The Aslans became a power during the Long Night and the first colonization of Algine took place before that. The second took place around -1000, when the Aslan had spread out across a good bit of territory (and you probably didn't need psychohistory to predict that they'd spread out a lot more before anyone could check their spread).

But what's all that about closing Grandfather's last portal? You've either read some canon that I haven't or mistaken some bit of fan material for canonical writing.

Please tell me more.


Hans
 
The major purpose of the coyns is to enable Droyne populations that have lost the ability to caste naturally to do so.

That is exactly what I mean. The Droyne don't really seem to have that "fire in the belly" that gives them the "get up and go" to reach sentience on their own. They're "stuck", like potentially sentient races in Brin's Uplift Universe. Except unlike the Uplift Universe, in the Traveller Universe most races have bootstrap themselves to sentience. Indeed, the other major races can restart their civilizations even after what would seem like crippling blows. That the Droyne can't do this would be something that'd make them less competitive and put the future survivial of the Droyne in danger. Thus, coyns.


Beyond that, I've always been of the opinion that Grandfather interventions in the TU should be kept to an absolute minimum. There's a tendency with a Traveller players to sort of consider Grandfather as "God" and have Grandfather constantly meddling in this, that, and the other thing, showing up using killing light to destroy entire armies of the unjust or whatever, or forgetting to turn off a planetary fertilizer device and threatening to bury a planet under it. I personally prefer to keep Grandfather directly out of IMTU. About the only thing that might rouse Grandfather to action would be the extinction of all of the Droyne in the TU, and maybe not even then (since he might have seeded Droyne far away from the known universe a long time ago).
 
What? The Aslans became a power during the Long Night and the first colonization of Algine took place before that. The second took place around -1000, when the Aslan had spread out across a good bit of territory (and you probably didn't need psychohistory to predict that they'd spread out a lot more before anyone could check their spread).

But what's all that about closing Grandfather's last portal? You've either read some canon that I haven't or mistaken some bit of fan material for canonical writing.

Well, it all depends on the settlement date of Algine. I am trying to find information that lists when the world was settled, and I see in the Wikia that it lists -2200 by the Vilani and -1000 by the Solomani. I am looking to see if I can find and definitive source on that.

In any case - Adventure 12 discusses Access to the Pocket Universe:

Expeditions: Grandfather left one portal at Algine open for millenia. From that portal, he would occasionally venture forth into the universe - in search of some mineral or data he needed. Sometimes he would send a robot-crewed ship out on an expedition to a far-off world or star in search of some arcane knowledge.

When that world was colonized by humans, he closed that portal, and shut himself off from the universe.

So, once humans arrived at Algine, he closed up shop. But when did humans settle Algine? If it was -1000, then no problem. If it was -2200, then there may be a bit of a continuity problem. But not really. Either way opens up some interesting scenarios if you want to do a Long Night adventure...
 
That is exactly what I mean. The Droyne don't really seem to have that "fire in the belly" that gives them the "get up and go" to reach sentience on their own. They're "stuck", like potentially sentient races in Brin's Uplift Universe. Except unlike the Uplift Universe, in the Traveller Universe most races have bootstrap themselves to sentience. Indeed, the other major races can restart their civilizations even after what would seem like crippling blows. That the Droyne can't do this would be something that'd make them less competitive and put the future survivial of the Droyne in danger. Thus, coyns.


Beyond that, I've always been of the opinion that Grandfather interventions in the TU should be kept to an absolute minimum. There's a tendency with a Traveller players to sort of consider Grandfather as "God" and have Grandfather constantly meddling in this, that, and the other thing, showing up using killing light to destroy entire armies of the unjust or whatever, or forgetting to turn off a planetary fertilizer device and threatening to bury a planet under it. I personally prefer to keep Grandfather directly out of IMTU. About the only thing that might rouse Grandfather to action would be the extinction of all of the Droyne in the TU, and maybe not even then (since he might have seeded Droyne far away from the known universe a long time ago).

Again it looks like we are on a similar wavelength. Letting Virus coyns act as that fire can re-energise the Droyne for me in the same way I imagine it has for the Dominate. I also like the idea of Grandfathers loss of control of the Droyne. As you say he is no God.

IMTU Grandather is not behind everything, nor are the Hivers. The Geonee are right. The Ancients were human and close to the Geonee in culture. They uplifted races and spread the chirpers, created the Droyne and eventualy Grandfather. During the civil war he did enough to ensure Droyne survival and retreated to his pocket dimension.

Marc Miller would not be impressed I'm sure (but my players generaly are...).
 
I don't really think Grandfather lost control of the Droyne.

IMTU he gave control up.

It's a crucial difference - he didn't give it up because he couldn't handle it, he gave it up because he didn't want it. To me Grandfather is sort of like the stereotypical Chinese wise man on the top of the mountain - except he lives in a pocket universe instead of a mountain for his solitude. In his quest for wisdom and knowledge about the "human condition" (or the Droyne Condition) he's growing ever further away from very condition he seeks to know about. He's basically reached the stage in Chinese mythology where the wise man no longer needs to eat or drink, he can just sip the clouds for his transcendent metabolism. Grandfather really isn't Droyne. He is a species with just one member - hismelf. In fact, I consider him an entirely different order of life from the rest of us oxygen breathers - he's Retired. He's discovered truths and things that are so distant from our understanding what he knows, he can no longer explain to us we simply don't have the context to understand him nor could we gain such context without living for a few thousand years. Nevertheless, he could predict things in the universe using his knowledge and would be right - he's not insane. He doesn't need to learn your language to speak with you. Using his psionic skills and his knowledge of thinking processes common to all sentient races, he just speaks his language and somehow you translate it perfectly into your own language - only if you recorded it and listened to it later would you hear the jibberish. Say one of your party members is nursing a broken heart from a lover or a dead loved one. Grandfather could simply say a few words, and they'd be the perfect words to comfort them and make the let go of the pain. Truths like that, if he cared to do such things. It's just he's just so far beyond us that things like jobs, taxes, aging, children, social justice, and so on are meaningless to him.

But like any good parent, he saw to it that his children, the Droyne, are as well taken care-of as he can manage - he's done that with the Coyns where the Droyne can manage their own future by polling the collected wisdom of their race in a sort of "grand psionic democracy" of the coyn rituals. It's not precognition, though it seems like it. It's more like tapping the knowledge of all the Droyne to make decisions. For instance, how often in a group of humans is a decision made, only later it comes out that someone had relevant information that could have led to a better informed decision, be it an observation, knowledge, or an opinion that somehow doesn't get shared. Perhaps the person just doesn't like to speak up, they don't think it's relevant, or they keep it back for some purpose of their own. With coyn rituals, this doesn't happen - it taps the knowledge of all the Droyne to make a decision. So often the decision will be influenced by knowledge held by Droyne that aren't even immediate to the situation but still has relevance. For instance, some group of Droyne might be aware of a great invasion of Guild mercenaries killing all of the Droyne on a planet. However, news of this is still months away from where the players and the Droyne doing the ritual are and to them, the Droyne colony seems overpopulated and instead of the decision of "extinguish" which is what the Droyne and their human friends were expecting, the life change draw of the coyn votes "Path of the Warrior." Only months later does the truth of the draw come true and it seems like precognition to the players, but it's really just polling the wisdom of all the Droyne.

Perhaps Grandfather left other helpers, like some of his super-advanced robots living hidden lives amongst the Droyne, but I'd doubt it - as heartbreaking as it is to a parent, another thing a good parent needs to know is when to let go of their children and let them stand on their own two feet. Coddling them forever will just stunt their growth.

Plus, Grandfather is feeling a beckoning...a pull. Grandfather is nearing the end of membership in the Oxygen life order, about to move to the Retired order and already in his researches and information he's starting to see certain patterns that only someone of his age and wisdom can understand. A certain sort of breadcrumb trail, an invitation from those ancient races that "Retired" long before he was born, leaving esoteric clues out for those who reach the same place in the future to come find them. They'll be delighted that Grandfather invented Jump Drive, but as Grandfather's learned (and they learned millions of years before him) you ultimately do the most important travelling without moving at all - they transcended without Jump Drive. Grandfather's a little nervous of them right now, but eventually (perhaps tomorrow or in a few thousand years -- time as we know it is meaningless for him now that he's perfected the technology to exist comfortably just outside of the Event Horizon of his own black hole), he'll seek them out because for once, even beyond his own children, he'll finally meet patience, ancient intelligences whom he can speak to as his peers in intelligence, wisdom, and vision, and he'll finally find a place in a community as a member instead of a godlike head.

---

As for the Virus, their future is not entwined with the Droyne alone. I'm follow David Brin's Uplift Universe with its multiple orders of sentient life. The Virus represents the creation of an entirely new and different order of life - the Machines. We're already familiar with Oxygen breathers (which are most Traveller races), but in T4 we also learned about at least one of the Hydrogen breathers.

The birthing pains of this new order of life was the end of the Final War and it's still going on. It'll probably go on for centuries yet before oxygen life and machine life come to an accord. There'll be conflict, hatred, suspicision, and plenty of genocide. I see the hatred that most Traveller players feel towards the Virus as the exact kind of resentment and fear of the future that the established races would feel at the sudden realization they might be sharing a universe with a new race that wasn't there before. "What can we expect?" "Everything."

The appearance of the "machine" icon on the coyns isn't the sign of some special link between Droyne and the machines. It's a sign that the Virus is not just some data error or some temporary abberation, or some "rarely encountered weirdness" as Nilsen himself counseled. It's that there's a new race on the block, and it needs to be taken into account as much as any other race in the Traveller universe, no more, no less.
 
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Well, it all depends on the settlement date of Algine. I am trying to find information that lists when the world was settled, and I see in the Wikia that it lists -2200 by the Vilani and -1000 by the Solomani. I am looking to see if I can find a definitive source on that.
The definite source is Darrians and it doesn't say exactly when Algine was first settled, just that it was settled before -1513 (When the Itzin Fleet reached Darrian, the only worlds in the Spinward Marches with human populations were Darrian, Algine, Vanejen, and "a few Zhodani worlds").

The actual date could be any time from -2400 to -1700.

In any case - Adventure 12 discusses Access to the Pocket Universe:

Expeditions: Grandfather left one portal at Algine open for millenia. From that portal, he would occasionally venture forth into the universe - in search of some mineral or data he needed. Sometimes he would send a robot-crewed ship out on an expedition to a far-off world or star in search of some arcane knowledge.

When that world was colonized by humans, he closed that portal, and shut himself off from the universe.
That's a reference that I've missed. If we accept it, Grandfather either decided to shut himself up inside a single poky pocket universe for all eternity or the phrase "shut himself off from the universe" must be interpreted 'creatively'.

My suggestion would be to assume that Grandfather didn't do anything as drastic as imprisoning himself for all eternity. Maybe he is able to open portals from his universe to the big one at will?

So, once humans arrived at Algine, he closed up shop. But when did humans settle Algine? If it was -1000, then no problem. If it was -2200, then there may be a bit of a continuity problem. But not really. Either way opens up some interesting scenarios if you want to do a Long Night adventure...
It was some time before -1513 AND -1000. The -1000 date is from The Spinward Marches Campaign. I see no reason why a world can't be colonized multiple times.


Hans
 
The definite source is Darrians and it doesn't say exactly when Algine was first settled, just that it was settled before -1513 (When the Itzin Fleet reached Darrian, the only worlds in the Spinward Marches with human populations were Darrian, Algine, Vanejen, and "a few Zhodani worlds").

Ah! Thanks for that!

That's a reference that I've missed. If we accept it, Grandfather either decided to shut himself up inside a single poky pocket universe for all eternity or the phrase "shut himself off from the universe" must be interpreted 'creatively'.

My suggestion would be to assume that Grandfather didn't do anything as drastic as imprisoning himself for all eternity. Maybe he is able to open portals from his universe to the big one at will?

Oh, I agree. I think it depends on how you want to deal with him. But I think there is already a built in workaround - the portal used in Adventure 12 was one that was kept open by his assistants. It's an easy ref call to have others, or even have him create new ones. Eventually, the stars in his pocket universe are going to go out, so he'll have to do something.

It was some time before -1513 AND -1000. The -1000 date is from The Spinward Marches Campaign. I see no reason why a world can't be colonized multiple times.

Agreed - that is how I read the Wiki entry.
 
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