Creating a TL 5 Battleship using the CE VDS

[atpollard]

I have wanted to play with the Cepheus Engine Vehicle Design System (VDS) for a while now. A recent topic reawakened that interest, so here goes my attempt to create a TL 5 Battleship modeled after the historic Iowa-class Battleships of WW2. I am not a fanatic about getting every detail exact, but I am curious how a ship in Game Terms compares to its Real World equivalent. It would just be nice to know "How close is close enough?" under the existing game mechanics. That will tell you whether it is worth the bother to differentiate between a German Battleship and an American Battleship or will the differences fall below the resolution of the game. This will also give me a chance to see how "designing a watercraft" works and for all of you to either correct me when I make a mistake, or learn from my mistakes ... I meant follow my example ... and create your own watercraft.

Since formatting on COTI is too darn hard, I will just start out with the list of components from the sample TL 9 Destroyer, then revise them for a TL 5 Battleship (Iowa) and calculate the spaces first. I will go back down the list and calculate price after the spaces work.

[I will keep updating this list as the topic progresses:]


TL 5 Battleship (Iowa)

Chassis

• Base = + 144,000 spaces
• Configuration = - 0 spaces [closed]
• Iron Armor = - 14,400 spaces [armor 4]

Power Plant

• Internal Combustion = - 18,432 spaces [x4 code W Ship Drives]

Propulsion

• Screw Propeller = - 1,968 spaces [x4 code W Ship Drives]
• Increased Agility = -0 spaces

Fuel

• Hydrocarbon = - 6,048 spaces [336 hours@60kph]

Controls

• Basic = - 1 space [Agility 0]
• Autopilot = - 0 spaces [Ocean Ships-0]

Communications

• Class III = - 0.02 spaces

Sensors

• None = - 0 spaces [TL 5]

Computer

• None = - 0 spaces [TL 5]

Accommodations

• Control Cabin = - 2448 spaces [1xStandard & 132xExtended]
• Standard Staterooms (x270) = - 12,960 spaces [270 Officers]
• Military 2-bunk Barracks (x1215) = - 29,160 spaces [2430 Enlisted]

Additional Components

• None = - 0 spaces

Armaments

• Three 500 ton Barbettes [Primary Armament: 9 x 16" Guns (80x8D6 Personal Damage; 6D6 Starship Damage)]
• Large Turrets (x3) = - 9 spaces
• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x720) = - 17,280 spaces [1020 weapon points taken]
• Bonus gunners & loaders (x 237) = - 711 spaces

• Ten 5 ton Barbettes [Secondary Armament: 20 x 5" Guns (8D6 Personal Damage)]
• Large Turrets (x10) = - 30 spaces
• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x20) = - 480 spaces [20 weapon points taken]
• Bonus gunners & loaders (x 30) = - 90 spaces

• 20 Quad-40mm "Large Turret" Mounts [Anti-Air Armament]
• Large Turrets (x20) = - 60 spaces
• Rocket Artillery-TL 5 (x80) = - 1,200 spaces [100 weapon points taken]

• 49 Singled-20mm "Large Turret" Mounts [Anti-Air Armament]
• Large Turrets (x49) = - 147 spaces
• Heavy Machine Gun-TL 5 (x49) = - 147 spaces [49 weapon points taken]

Ammunition (Thirty minutes [300 x 6 second combat rounds] worth of ammo for our Armaments)

• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x720) = - 8640 spaces [Main Armament: 7200 rounds/min]
• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x20) = - 240 spaces [Secondary Armament: 200 rounds/min]
• Rocket Artillery-TL 5 (x80) = - 2400 spaces [40mm AA Armament: 2400 rounds/min]
• Heavy Machine Gun-TL 5 (x49) = - 15 spaces [20mm AA Armament: 4900 rounds/min]

Cargo = -27,734 spaces


TL 5 Battleship (Iowa)

Chassis

• Base = Cr 48,000,000
• Configuration = Cr 0
• Iron Armor = Cr 9,600,000

Power Plant

• Internal Combustion = Cr 4,032,000

Propulsion

• Screw Propeller = Cr 8,400,000
• Increased Agility = Cr 24,000,000

Fuel

• Hydrocarbon = Cr 5,019,840

Controls

• Basic = Cr 0
• Autopilot = Cr 2,000

Communications

• Class III = Cr 2,000

Sensors

• None = Cr 0

Computer

• None = Cr 0

Accommodations

• Control Cabin = Cr 680,000
• Standard Staterooms (x270) = Cr 135,000,000
• Military 2-bunk Barracks (x1215) = Cr 1,215,000

Additional Components

• None = Cr 0

Armaments

• Three 500 ton Barbettes [Primary Armament]
• Large Turrets (x3) = Cr 288,000,000
• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x720) = Cr 115,200,000
• Bonus gunners & loaders (x 237) = Cr 0

• Ten 5 ton Barbettes [Secondary Armament]
• Large Turrets (x10) = Cr 9,600,000
• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x20) = Cr 3,200,000
• Bonus gunners & loaders (x 30) = Cr 0

• 20 Quad-40mm "Large Turret" Mounts [Anti-Air Armament]
• Large Turrets (x20) = Cr 21,160,000
• Rocket Artillery-TL 5 (x80) = Cr 480,000

• 49 Singled-20mm "Large Turret" Mounts [Anti-Air Armament]
• Large Turrets (x49) = Cr 4,704,000
• Heavy Machine Gun-TL 5 (x49) = Cr 441,000

Ammunition (Thirty minutes [300 x 6 second combat rounds] worth of ammo for our Armaments)

• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x720) = Cr 34,560,000 [Main Armament]
• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x20) = Cr 960,000 [Secondary Armament]
• Rocket Artillery-TL 5 (x80) = Cr 12,000,000
• Heavy Machine Gun-TL 5 (x49) = Cr 75,000

TOTAL COST = Cr 726,330,840

 

[atpollard]

Begin at the beginning ... Vehicle Design Checklist

1. Choose a Vehicle Chassis
a. Determine chassis configuration
b. Determine open or closed chassis
c. Install armor (optional)

Since we need "Displacement" as the first step in designing the Chassis ... how large is an Iowa Class Battleship?
Start with the box that would surround the ship (length x width x height).
I use round numbers because small fractions are silly at this level of precision, so call it 270 meters long x 33 meters wide (straight from wikipedia).
Eyeballing a plan and side view of the ship shows that it is roughly as tall as it is wide, so I will use 33 meters for height as well.

That makes the box around the ship 270m x 33m x 33m = 294,030 cubic meters [about 21,000 dTons for anyone curious].
So we know the ship has to be smaller than 21,000 displacement tons (dTons).
But how much smaller?

First the HARD way ... I traced a plan of the ship and divided the area of the length x width by the area of the deck (using a drawing program) and came up with about 0.75, then I did the same for the side view and came up with about 0.75 as well. When we multiply 0.75 x 0.75 we get 0.56, meaning that the volume of the ship is about 56% of the volume of the box.

294,030 cubic meters x 0.56 = 164,657 cubic meters [11,761 dTons for anyone curious].

That required a fancy drawing program and a lot of time and work, so here is the EASY way ... for almost all relatively normal ships (may not apply to catamarans or other exotic hulls) if you ignore any sails or masts, then the ratio of BOX to SHIP almost always comes out somewhere around 0.6 (or 60%). So let's just use the easy way ...

270m x 33m x 33m = 294,030 cu.m. BOX
294,030 cu.m. x 0.6 = 176,781 cu.m. SHIP

We need dTons and 1 dTon = 14 cu.m., so ...

176,781 cu.m. SHIP / 14 = 12,601 dTons

So the Iowa Class Battleship is between 11,800 dTons [Hard Calculation] and 12,600 dTons [Easy Calculation], but we only have 2 digit accuracy anyway, so let's use 12,000 Displacement Tons.

Using the TL 9 Destroyer as a guide:

• it has an 800-ton hull [the Battleship is a 12,000-ton hull]
• it has a "closed" configuration [the Battleship will not be a convertible either.]
• it has Titanium Steel (Armor 6) [the Battleship will need a TL 5 armor and this is a design variable that we may need to play with to balance the design for the rules.]

so we have 12,000 tons (dTons) at 12 vehicle "spaces" per dTon = 144,000 spaces.
Construction time appears to be 9 hours per ton, so the 12,000 ton ship has a base construction time of 108,000 hours (12 years) ... I guess that we will need to use the Starship Construction time for large watercraft [good to know].
We only have Iron Armor (TL 4) available on the list (Titanium appears at TL 7). Since Iron Armor is installed in 2 point per 5% space increments up to a maximum of 10 points of armor, it is easy to calculate a quick reference for all available options for TL 4-6 Armor

• Iron Armor 1 = 2.5% of vehicle = 3600 spaces
• Iron Armor 2 = 5% of vehicle = 7200 spaces
• Iron Armor 3 = 7.5% of vehicle = 10,800 spaces
• Iron Armor 4 = 10% of vehicle = 14,400 spaces
• Iron Armor 5 = 12.5% of vehicle = 18,0600 spaces
• Iron Armor 6 = 15% of vehicle = 21,600 spaces
• Iron Armor 7 = 17.5% of vehicle = 25,200 spaces
• Iron Armor 8 = 20% of vehicle = 28,800 spaces
• Iron Armor 9 = 22.5% of vehicle = 32,400 spaces
• Iron Armor 10 = 25% of vehicle = 36,000 spaces

The Destroyer used 10% of the space for armor, so we will use that as our first guess.
Now we have a Chassis

... Base = 144,000
... Configuration = 0 [closed]
... Armor = - 14,400 [armor 4]

 

[atpollard]

2. Choose locomotion/propulsion

Easy enough, that would be a Screw Propeller from the Vehicle Propulsion Types Table

So a Screw Propeller is TL 3, a Thrust type propulsion, takes up the normal number of spaces (x1) and has a reduced cost (x0.1).
But the table in the VDS stops way below anything close to the size of the TL 9 Destroyer or my Battleship. I guess it must be time to check back with the CE SRD and Starship Design. Fortunately, THRUST is THRUST, so the Base values should be the same and the specific modifiers for Propulsion type should still apply.

The table does not go to 12,000 tons but I can pretend that I have a fleet of 3000 ton hulls (x4) or a fleet of 4000 ton hulls (x3) that happen to be touching and calculate the total for all the drives (and later, the Power plants).
Drive K in an 800 ton hull gave the TL 9 Destroyer a performance of 3, so we will aim for that for our Battleship. We can adjust it later after we compare it to the speed of the historic ship.
That means a W drive in a 3000 ton hull for performance 3.
One Drive W is 41 tons and MCr 84, so four Drive W would be 164 tons (x12 = 1,968 spaces) and MCr 336 (x0.1 = MCr 33.6 ... for later).
Since the Destroyer added the Increased Agility option, we will add +1 agility to the Battleship as well.

Propulsion

• Screw Propeller = - 1,968 spaces [x4 code W Ship Drives]
• Increased Agility = - 0 spaces

3. Choose power supply

We select TL 5 Internal Combustion with increased spaces (x6), reduced cost (x0.05) and Hydrocarbon Fuel.
One Power Plant W is 64 tons and MCr 168, so four Power Plants (W) would be 256 tons (x6 x12 = 18,432 spaces) and MCr 672 (x0.05 = MCr 33.6 ... for later).

Power Plant

• Internal Combustion = - 18,432 spaces [x4 code W Ship Drives]

4. Determine fuel requirements

The TL 9 Destroyer has a 672 hour (4 week) fuel capacity. Ironically, the Iowa Battleship had a range of 27,580 km at 28 kph (985 hours) and a top speed of 61 kph (<450 hours), so 4 weeks seems about right.
Hydrocarbons require more space than Hydrogen Fuel (x3) and each Power Plant W requires 84 tons of Hydrogen per 4 weeks.
So my 4 Power Plant W would need 336 tons of Hydrogen for 4 weeks, or 1008 tons (336x3) of Hydrocarbons.

1008 tons x 12 = 12,096 spaces of fuel (hydrocarbon)

Fuel

• Hydrocarbon = - 12,096 spaces [672 hours]

Just a quick addendum: per the VDS, a performance 3 Screw Drive has a Base Speed of 60 KPH [as compared to the 61 kph Speed of the actual Iowa Class Battleships] ... well done Samardan Press! Clearly fractions of a G can be tweaked to match any real world ship if was important to the particular design.

Cruising speed is 75% of Base Speed = 45 kph with a duration of 1008 hours ... 45 kph x 1008 hrs = 45,360 km range.
I can reduce the fuel on the Battleship in half and use the spaces for more armor. Let's see how we are on space at the end before I start making changes.

 

[atpollard]

For "Electronics", I only have limited information gleaned from Wikipedia on the real Iowa-class Battleships, but it at least presents something of a starting point ...

"The earliest search radars installed were the SK air-search radar and SG surface-search radar during World War II. They were located on the mainmast and forward fire-control tower of the battleships, respectively. As the war drew to a close, the United States introduced the SK-2 air-search radar and SG surface-search radar; the Iowa class was updated to make use of these systems between 1945 and 1952. At the same time, the ships' radar systems were augmented with the installation of the SP height finder on the main mast.

In addition to these search and navigational radars, the Iowa class were also outfitted with a variety of fire control systems for their gun systems. Beginning with their commissioning, the battleships made use of a trio of Mk 38 gun fire control systems to direct the 16-inch guns and a quartet of Mk 37 gun fire control systems to direct the 5-inch gun batteries. These systems were upgraded over time, but remained the cornerstones of the combat radar systems on the Iowa class during their careers. The range estimation of these gunfire control systems provided a significant accuracy advantage over earlier ships with optical rangefinders; this was demonstrated off Truk Atoll on 16 February 1944, when the Iowa engaged the Japanese destroyer Nowaki at a range of 35,700 yards (32.6 km; 17.6 nmi) and straddled her, setting the record for the longest-ranged straddle in history.

In World War II, the electronic countermeasures (ECM) included the SPT-1 and SPT-4 equipment; passive electronic support measures (ESM) were a pair of DBM radar direction finders and three intercept receiving antennas, while the active components were the TDY-1 jammers located on the sides of the fire control tower. The ships were also equipped with the Mark III identification, friend or foe (IFF) system."​

Not too shabby. In Traveller terms, I see:

• Active Radar (air and ground)
• Electronic Fire Control
• Radar Range Finder
• Radar Detection and Direction Finders ECM
• Radar Jammers
• Electronic IFF system

5. Choose vehicle’s controls

The TL 9 Destroyer chose Advanced Controls and Autopilot. Unfortunately for us, Advanced Controls are TL 8, so the TL 5 Battleship will need to make due with Basic Controls (TL 4) requiring only 1 space and no additional cost.

Autopilot is available as an option on watercraft starting at TL 5 [0 spaces & Cr 2000], so we will add it.

Controls

• Basic = - 1 space [Agility 0]
• Autopilot = - 0 spaces [Ocean Ships-0]

6. Choose vehicle’s communications system (optional)

We will choose the best Comm available in the rules for TL 5, the Class III, which requires 0.02 spaces, costs CR 1,000 and has a range of Very Distant (50 km). This is the first thing that I have encountered in the rules that I am inclined to fact check against reality. I am a little skeptical that radios only had a 50 km maximum range at TL 5 ... I think the Titanic was able to communicate across the ocean with continents. It is not "errata" as much as it is an area that could use expansion. I doubt the radio on the Titanic fit in a small carry on bag.

Communications

• Class III = - 0.02 spaces

7. Choose vehicle’s sensor package (optional)

There are no sensors available at TL 5. The earliest is the Standard at TL 8. That is a bit of a problem since WW2 fighter Aircraft and Ships did have radar. Now I admit that Radar was new and cutting edge technology in WW2 and WW2 is the tail end of TL 5 (traditionally about 1900 to 1940), so WW2 Radar may really be TL 6 and a Prototype/Early technology at that. However, no Radar til TL 8 seems a bit late. That should be looked at closer when I get a chance. For now, we roll with the rules as written.

Sensors

• None = - 0 spaces [TL 5]

8. Choose vehicle’s computer system (optional)

There are no computers available at TL 5. The earliest is the Model 0 at TL 7. I don't think that is a problem since ENIAC, the very first general computer, was built in 1945. A Model 0 might be TL 6, but that is debatable and does not impact THIS design.

Computer

• None = - 0 spaces [TL 5]

 

[Timerover51]

For "Electronics", I only have limited information gleaned from Wikipedia on the real Iowa-class Battleships, but it at least presents something of a starting point ...

"The earliest search radars installed were the SK air-search radar and SG surface-search radar during World War II. They were located on the mainmast and forward fire-control tower of the battleships, respectively. As the war drew to a close, the United States introduced the SK-2 air-search radar and SG surface-search radar; the Iowa class was updated to make use of these systems between 1945 and 1952. At the same time, the ships' radar systems were augmented with the installation of the SP height finder on the main mast.

In addition to these search and navigational radars, the Iowa class were also outfitted with a variety of fire control systems for their gun systems. Beginning with their commissioning, the battleships made use of a trio of Mk 38 gun fire control systems to direct the 16-inch guns and a quartet of Mk 37 gun fire control systems to direct the 5-inch gun batteries. These systems were upgraded over time, but remained the cornerstones of the combat radar systems on the Iowa class during their careers. The range estimation of these gunfire control systems provided a significant accuracy advantage over earlier ships with optical rangefinders; this was demonstrated off Truk Atoll on 16 February 1944, when the Iowa engaged the Japanese destroyer Nowaki at a range of 35,700 yards (32.6 km; 17.6 nmi) and straddled her, setting the record for the longest-ranged straddle in history.

In World War II, the electronic countermeasures (ECM) included the SPT-1 and SPT-4 equipment; passive electronic support measures (ESM) were a pair of DBM radar direction finders and three intercept receiving antennas, while the active components were the TDY-1 jammers located on the sides of the fire control tower. The ships were also equipped with the Mark III identification, friend or foe (IFF) system."​

Not too shabby. In Traveller terms, I see:

• Active Radar (air and ground)
• Electronic Fire Control
• Radar Range Finder
• Radar Detection and Direction Finders ECM
• Radar Jammers
• Electronic IFF system

5. Choose vehicle’s controls

The TL 9 Destroyer chose Advanced Controls and Autopilot. Unfortunately for us, Advanced Controls are TL 8, so the TL 5 Battleship will need to make due with Basic Controls (TL 4) requiring only 1 space and no additional cost.

Autopilot is available as an option on watercraft starting at TL 5 [0 spaces & Cr 2000], so we will add it.

Controls

• Basic = - 1 space [Agility 0]
• Autopilot = - 0 spaces [Ocean Ships-0]

6. Choose vehicle’s communications system (optional)

We will choose the best Comm available in the rules for TL 5, the Class III, which requires 0.02 spaces, costs CR 1,000 and has a range of Very Distant (50 km). This is the first thing that I have encountered in the rules that I am inclined to fact check against reality. I am a little skeptical that radios only had a 50 km maximum range at TL 5 ... I think the Titanic was able to communicate across the ocean with continents. It is not "errata" as much as it is an area that could use expansion. I doubt the radio on the Titanic fit in a small carry on bag.

Communications

• Class III = - 0.02 spaces

7. Choose vehicle’s sensor package (optional)

There are no sensors available at TL 5. The earliest is the Standard at TL 8. That is a bit of a problem since WW2 fighter Aircraft and Ships did have radar. Now I admit that Radar was new and cutting edge technology in WW2 and WW2 is the tail end of TL 5 (traditionally about 1900 to 1940), so WW2 Radar may really be TL 6 and a Prototype/Early technology at that. However, no Radar til TL 8 seems a bit late. That should be looked at closer when I get a chance. For now, we roll with the rules as written.

Sensors

• None = - 0 spaces [TL 5]

8. Choose vehicle’s computer system (optional)

There are no computers available at TL 5. The earliest is the Model 0 at TL 7. I don't think that is a problem since ENIAC, the very first general computer, was built in 1945. A Model 0 might be TL 6, but that is debatable and does not impact THIS design.

Computer

• None = - 0 spaces [TL 5]

The Main Battery Directors on the Iowa-class battleships have electro-mechanical ballistics computers for fire control of the 16 Inch Guns. The Directors for the 5 Inch Guns also had electro-mechanical ballistic computers for anti-aircraft fire, and the system was viewed by even the British as the best ship-board anti-aircraft control system for the entire war and world. It was developed in the 1930s. The 40mm quads also had simple ballistics computers for fire control, generally one per quad.

This was not a case of using guesstimates and the Mark One eyeball. The 5 inch directors all had radar rangefinders mounted on them, as did the main battery directors.

Apparently the rules have no understanding of fire control equipment prior to electronic computers.

As for the power plant, it was an external combustion steam plant, with two boilers and one turbine per fire room. The middle third of the ship was occupied by that. I would suggest you take a look at some good ships drawing on the Iowas. They can be found in Norm Friedman’s US Battleship Design and Development or Bob Sumrall’s Iowa-Class Battleships, while Norm Friedman’s Battleship Design and Development should also be consulted. I have all in hard copy and have gone through them several times.

The controls space you give is simply ridiculous, as that took up one entire bridge level.

I will post more comments latter.

 

[Timerover51]

The size of the ship. The Iowa-class were designed to be 45,000 ton Standard, with the Standard defined in the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty, and which used the long ton of 2240 pounds. The 45,000 tons did not include the 9000 tons of bunker fuel carried. To compute the ship size in terms of Traveller dTons, take the 45,000 tons representing the amount and volume of salt water displaced by the hull, and multiply by 2. That will give you a good approximation of the interval volume of the hull, so 90,000 tons.

As the long ton was larger than the metric ton, you might want to divide the 90,000 by 13.5 as compensation. That equates to 6,667 dTons or so.

As it looks like the rules do not have any significant armor before Tech Level 7 with Titanium, I will give what the armor actually was. The main belt was 12.1 inches thick of Class A Face-hardened Armor sloped at 19 degrees to the vertical to increase its effective resistance. The Class B Armor, rolled homogeneous machinable quality armor was by the time just about as resistant as the Class A armor, and cheaper to manufacture. In addition, as the main belt was internal, the outer hull covering it was composed of 60 pound, 1.5 inches, of Special Treated Steel plate, which was also armor. This acted as a decapping plate for armor-piecing projectiles, so as to reduce their effectiveness in penetrating the belt. The main belt stretched clear to the ship double bottom in much thinner thickness to protect against diving shells. This did mess up the torpedo protection system a bit, but that gets into quite technical areas.

Note, as you appear to be using Iron Armor, Face-Hardened armor was rated at 2.6 times the resistance of Wrought Iron plate. In the thicknesses used in the Iowa-Class, it was also quite expensive. Then you also have the deck armor to account for, which was 3.5 inches as a basis and with added additional splinter armor protection. Then there was the turret armor, and the 10 pound armor around the 40mm guns and the armor on the 5 inch gun mounts.

The New Jersey was equipped as a Fleet Flagship with additional quarters for a Fleet Commanders staff, which increased officer accommodation by quite a bit. If I remember correctly, the other three were equipped as Task Force flagships. As I am not at home, I will have to check.

There is also a good write up on the Iowas in Duilin and Garske's US Battleships of World War 2. I have that in hard copy as well. Then there are the remainder of the Norm Friedman Design and Development series covering Aircraft Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers, and Small Surface Combatants. I have those, but I am missing his book on Amphibious Ship development.

 

[atpollard]

First, thank you for your contribution and input.

The Main Battery Directors on the Iowa-class battleships have electro-mechanical ballistics computers for fire control of the 16 Inch Guns. The Directors for the 5 Inch Guns also had electro-mechanical ballistic computers for anti-aircraft fire, and the system was viewed by even the British as the best ship-board anti-aircraft control system for the entire war and world. It was developed in the 1930s. The 40mm quads also had simple ballistics computers for fire control, generally one per quad.

This was not a case of using guesstimates and the Mark One eyeball. The 5 inch directors all had radar rangefinders mounted on them, as did the main battery directors.

Apparently the rules have no understanding of fire control equipment prior to electronic computers.

Thanks, that was a lot of useful information that I did not have.

One gearhead to another, I think MegaTraveller and TNE:FF&S have some data on electronics, sensors and computers at other (lower) TLs that could be mined to expand the list of options. The goal of CE was not to be all things to all people, it was to give everyone a set of core rules that they could hang THEIR THING from. For that purpose it provides a framework of ...

• Controls
• Sensors
• Communications
• Computers

... that we can hang additional choices from with a minimal effort.

As for the power plant, it was an external combustion steam plant, with two boilers and one turbine per fire room. The middle third of the ship was occupied by that. I would suggest you take a look at some good ships drawing on the Iowas. They can be found in Norm Friedman’s US Battleship Design and Development or Bob Sumrall’s Iowa-Class Battleships, while Norm Friedman’s Battleship Design and Development should also be consulted. I have all in hard copy and have gone through them several times.

It is funny that you mention that. I was just recently setting up for a Traveller game based on a waterworld with 19th Century Technology (TL 3-4) and just finished reading quite a few books on the Hisory and Development of Steam Engines and Boilers ... so I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

Looking at the rules and how they function, it is a distinction without a difference. There is a giant difference between the efficiency of a TL 3 low pressure, wood fired atmospheric steam engine and a TL 4 high pressure coal fired 'locomotive' type steam engine. There is a large difference between the efficiency of the TL 4 Coal fired, 'locomotive' boiler and a TL 5 oil fired water tube boiler steam turbine. The difference in efficiency between a TL 5 steam turbine and a TL 5 internal combustion engine is minimal in comparison.

I thought about the possibility of adding a TL 5 steam turbine, but it's game statistics would probably look exactly the same as the Internal Combustion engine.

Do you have any data to indicate that a Steam Turbine is 50% more/less expensive than a marine diesel of comparable SHP? What about 50% larger/smaller than a marine diesel of comparable SHP? If there is no significant difference in either COST or SIZE per SHP, then there will be no difference in the rules per Game Mechanics. It becomes just "chrome" to decorate the descriptive text.

The controls space you give is simply ridiculous, as that took up one entire bridge level.

No argument on that, except that I think it is an "apples to oranges" comparison in the Vehicle Design Rules. The "Controls" are the wheel and levers used by the Ship's Pilot on the Bridge and NOTHING MORE. All of the engine controls are part of the "Drive" and "Power Plant". All of the weapon controls are part of the "Weapons" spaces. Controls are just the controls for the one person that steers the ship to hold on to.

I will post more comments latter.

I look forward to it.

 

[atpollard]

9. Determine number of required crew
Since it is hard to determine crew before you have all of the components that will require crew, I typically just use 1 person per 100 dTons as an initial estimate. The ship was estimated to be 12,000 dTons so the crew would be about 120 (if it were a free trader or something). Triple that for three shifts on a military ship and we have 360 crewmen as an estimate.

Since the actual crew of an Iowa Class Battleship is known, let's use that instead ... 2700 crewmen.

Just pulling numbers out of thin air, since I don't know the SRD well enough to know if they have a recommendation in another part of the rules, but I will call that 10% officers and 90% enlisted men.

270 Officers
2430 Enlisted



a. Choose accommodations (cockpit, cabin, extended accommodations

Let's take a moment to see what they did on the TL 9 Destroyer. They have a control cabin that "supports 30 crew on shift" with both "standard plus extended" that requires 324 spaces. Let's see if we can get the math to work for the TL 9 Destroyer, before we try it on the Battleship. Crew per shift = 30 / 3 shifts = 10 crew per shift.

Control Cabin, Standard (CCS) supports 3 people (2 crew +1 other), so 10/3 = 4 CCS = 288 spaces
Control Cabin, Extended (CCE) supports 1 additional person, so 10/1 = 10 CCE = 10 x 18 = 180 spaces
288 + 180 = 468 ... so that is not equal to 324 spaces. Let's try again.

Control Cabin, Standard (CCS) supports 3 people (2 crew +1 other), so 1 CCS = 72 spaces (need 10-3 = 7 CCE)
Control Cabin, Extended (CCE) supports 1 additional person, so 7 CCE = 7 x 18 = 126 spaces.
72 + 126 = 198 ... so that is not equal to 324 spaces. Let's try again.

Control Cabin, Standard (CCS) supports 3 people (2 crew +1 other), so 1 CCS = 72 spaces (need 10-2 = 8 CCE)
Control Cabin, Extended (CCE) supports 1 additional person, so 8 CCE = 8 x 18 = 144 spaces.
72 + 144 = 216 ... so that is not equal to 324 spaces.

I just don't know how they arrived at -324 spaces for the Control Cabin. Working the problem backward, there needs to be at least one CCS, so 324-72 = 252 spaces. Each additional CCE requires 18 spaces, so 252/18 = 14 CCE.

1 x CCS = 2 crew + 1 additional person.
14 CCE = 14 crew
Total Control Cabin = 16 Crew + 1 person. [shrug]


For the TL 5 Battleship, I will design the Control Cabin to accommodate 50% of the officers (270/2 = 135). That requires 1 x CCS (3 men) and 132 x CCE (132 men).

1 x Control Cabin, Standard (CCS) = 2 crew +1 other = - 72 spaces
132 x Control Cabin, Extended (CCE) = 132 crew x 18 = - 2376 spaces.

For accommodations, I will provide the 270 officers with single rooms and the 2430 Enlisted men with double occupancy rooms. The actual rooms are different, but this is a start for a first pass at assigning spaces.

270 Officers Standard staterooms + 1215 Enlisted Double staterooms = 1485 Standard Staterooms


Accommodations

• Control Cabin = - 2448 spaces [1xStandard & 132xExtended]
• Standard Staterooms (x1485) = - 71,280 spaces [270 S.O. + 1215 D.O.]

 

[McPerth]

Not being much into T5, I cannot be sure if it has changed the TLs from CT/MT, but in then TL5 was (more or less) WWI, while WWII/Korea War was more TL6 (tanks, submersibles, s, etc).

The Iowas being on the cutting edge of WWII naval tech, I guess they can be assumed to be TL6. Again, unless it has changes in T5, this would allow it to have early computers, etc...

 

[Timerover51]

Not being much into T5, I cannot be sure if it has changed the TLs from CT/MT, but in then TL5 was (more or less) WWI, while WWII/Korea War was more TL6 (tanks, submersibles, s, etc).

The Iowas being on the cutting edge of WWII naval tech, I guess they can be assumed to be TL6. Again, unless it has changes in T5, this would allow it to have early computers, etc...

Electro-mechanical ballistic computers started being developed with the advent of longer range gunnery prior to World War 1, along with the rise of anti-aircraft gunnery. As I stated the fire control systems for the U.S. Navy were developed and first fielded in the 1930s.

For information on World War 2 naval fire control systems, you need to look at N.J.M. Campbell’s Naval Weapons of World War Two. That is available only in hard copy. Yes, I have had it for about 20 years or so..

The Korean War was much closer to WW2 in terms of equipment used than later. The widespread use of jets clouds the issue.

 

[Timerover51]

Steam turbines verses Diesels. One steam turbine on the Iowa-class put out 53,000 shaft horsepower. That was about the same as the total output of the Diesel plant of the German pocket battleships. They used Diesels to get maximum range for commerce raiding, not because they were cheaper. Diesels of a power output equal to one steam turbine of an Iowa-class did not exist during WW2. You are talking about 212,000 shaft horsepower for the ship. I do not believe any Diesels close to that power exist today. The German pocket battleship were the only large warships powered by Diesels in WW2.

 

[kilemall]

Steam turbines verses Diesels. One steam turbine on the Iowa-class put out 53,000 shaft horsepower. That was about the same as the total output of the Diesel plant of the German pocket battleships. They used Diesels to get maximum range for commerce raiding, not because they were cheaper. Diesels of a power output equal to one steam turbine of an Iowa-class did not exist during WW2. You are talking about 212,000 shaft horsepower for the ship. I do not believe any Diesels close to that power exist today. The German pocket battleship were the only large warships powered by Diesels in WW2.

Hmm, actually there ARE 100,000 HP each diesel engines, but they are designed for the big but relatively slow and not heavy armored container ships as in the following story-


https://wolfstreet.com/2018/05/28/t...orld-and-challenges-their-manufacturers-face/


Two such engines could match the Iowa's HP, although I'm not sure if it would be at an acceptable cost of volume.

 

[atpollard]

Steam turbines verses Diesels. One steam turbine on the Iowa-class put out 53,000 shaft horsepower. That was about the same as the total output of the Diesel plant of the German pocket battleships. They used Diesels to get maximum range for commerce raiding, not because they were cheaper. Diesels of a power output equal to one steam turbine of an Iowa-class did not exist during WW2. You are talking about 212,000 shaft horsepower for the ship. I do not believe any Diesels close to that power exist today. The German pocket battleship were the only large warships powered by Diesels in WW2.

The comparison is still ...

• Cost/HP
• Volume/HP

If the difference in Cost/HP for a Diesel and a Steam (irrespective of size) is not significant, then the Listing for COST under the CE VDS for a new TL 5 Steam Turbine Power Plant will be IDENTICAL to the existing COST listing for a TL 5 Internal Combustion Power Plant.

So do you have any Cost/HP data for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

What about any data on VOLUME/HP for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

If the Cost/HP or Volume/HP numbers are significantly different, then it is worth adding a new "TL 5 Steam Turbine" Power plant and if the numbers are not significantly different, then it is not.

My data showed that around the turn of the century (about when I stopped looking for data for my TL 4 needs) the efficiency of Triple and Quadruple Expansion Steam Engines with water tube boilers, Steam Turbines, and Diesel engines was about equal. Details on the application determined preference (turbines generated higher RPMs for fast ships; Expansion allowed large engines for giant passenger ships; diesel required smaller crews for smaller sizes). I also read that the need for fresh water gave diesels a bunkerage advantage over steam in saltwater applications.

 

[Timerover51]

The comparison is still ...

• Cost/HP
• Volume/HP

If the difference in Cost/HP for a Diesel and a Steam (irrespective of size) is not significant, then the Listing for COST under the CE VDS for a new TL 5 Steam Turbine Power Plant will be IDENTICAL to the existing COST listing for a TL 5 Internal Combustion Power Plant.

So do you have any Cost/HP data for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

What about any data on VOLUME/HP for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

If the Cost/HP or Volume/HP numbers are significantly different, then it is worth adding a new "TL 5 Steam Turbine" Power plant and if the numbers are not significantly different, then it is not.

My data showed that around the turn of the century (about when I stopped looking for data for my TL 4 needs) the efficiency of Triple and Quadruple Expansion Steam Engines with water tube boilers, Steam Turbines, and Diesel engines was about equal. Details on the application determined preference (turbines generated higher RPMs for fast ships; Expansion allowed large engines for giant passenger ships; diesel required smaller crews for smaller sizes). I also read that the need for fresh water gave diesels a bunkerage advantage over steam in saltwater applications.

Do I understand you correctly that there are no provisions in the rules for steam turbine plants? I have the rules. I just cannot believe the omission of steam turbine plants.

 

[McPerth]

Electro-mechanical ballistic computers started being developed with the advent of longer range gunnery prior to World War 1, along with the rise of anti-aircraft gunnery. As I stated the fire control systems for the U.S. Navy were developed and first fielded in the 1930s.

For information on World War 2 naval fire control systems, you need to look at N.J.M. Campbell’s Naval Weapons of World War Two. That is available only in hard copy. Yes, I have had it for about 20 years or so..

I don't intend to discuss you any of this, as I concede you have quite superior knowledge tan myslef about RW ship design.

What I am saying here, is that IMHO the Iowas, as, AFAIK, curring edge WWII tech, should be TL6, with the changes this may bring.

Set's see the details in CT/MT among TL5 and TL6 (I don't know if CE¹ has changed this), according MT:RC pages 28/29, more or less equivalent to the tables in TTB pages 86-87:

Field	TL5	TL6
Time span(TTB)	Circa 1900-1939	Circa 1940-1969
Time span (MT:RM)	Circa 19302	Circa 19502
Personal military	Grenades, shotguns	Automatic weapons, SMGs
Heavy Weapons	Armored cars, Mortars	Nukes, Missiles
Computers	Electroni. Model 1	Electronic, Model 1 Bis
Communications	Radio, Radar	Television
Land Transport	Ground Cars, Tracked vehicles	Amphibian vehicles, Advanced ATV/AFVs
Water transport	Steel hulls, Early subs	Advanced subs, Scubba
Air Transport	Airplanes, seaplaned	Early jets, Helicopters

As you can see, at grosso modo TL5 is WWI, while TL6 is WWII/Korean war, and the Iowas would be, more or less, early TL6. I don't know how this can change this design, quite an interesting exercise in any case.

The Korean War was much closer to WW2 in terms of equipment used than later. The widespread use of jets clouds the issue.

Fully agreed, as I stated both, in my former post and above.

Note 1: I previously said T5, sorry for this, my fault
Note 2: despite the dates, see that the detailed table puts it more closer to TTB​

 

[atpollard]

We need to remember that the CE SRD is based on the T20 SRD and the MgT SRD ... so the publishers deliberately aimed for greater compatibility with Mongoose Traveller 1st Edition which had an expiring "Traveller" Trademark license for 3rd party publishers.

This is derived from Mongoose Traveller rather than directly from Classic Traveller. We should check the MgT TL dates and descriptions if anyone wants to claim something belongs in another TL (or the ones printed in the CE SRD if it has them).

 

[atpollard]

10. Determine additional components (optional)

The TL 9 Destroyer has no additional components (except Cargo Space), so I will not add any either for my first attempt. There are several available at TL 5 that might make sense and are worth reconsidering if I have extra space or for future designs:

• Cargo Hold (TL 1) ... free with left over space.
• Crane (TL 4) ... Real ship had sea planes, a crane would be useful.
• Detention Cells (TL 3) ... Brig?
• Entertainment System (TL 5) ... Movies and Radio for crew?
• Fire Extinguishers (TL 4) ... Real ship probably had it.
• Galley (TL 3) ... Is this included with Staterooms? Need to read up on the details later.
• Operating Theater (TL 5) ... Modern warship's have one, not sure about WW2 Battleships. Probably want one.
• Refrigeration (TL 5) ... Included in Galley, or do we need separate cold storage for food?
• Wet Bar (TL 2) ... Admiral and staff definitely need one of these ... [LOL]

On a ship as large as a Battleship, the additional spaces and cost of these items would probably be minimal. I'll look hard at them for future designs.

 

[atpollard]

11. Determine turrets, fixed mounts, etc. (optional)
a. Determine weapons (optional)

I expect to have the most difficulty matching Real Life to the Game Rules in the area of Armaments on the Battleship. This has nothing to do with the CE SRD and everything to do with the history of the Traveller game that it is built from. Giant Naval Artillery has never played a major role in Traveller from Classic Traveller on, so I expect to find little along the lines of the 406mm (16") Gun of which the Iowa Class mounted 9 (3 per turret x 3 turrets). So let's go through the rules and see what IS available:


gun ports ... Not applicable. If you reach the point where you are defending a Battleship with shotguns and sub-machine guns, everything has already gone wrong.

We get 1 WEAPON POINT per 5 tons, or 12,000/5 = 2400 weapon points for the Battleship and all weapon mounts are fixed.


500 ton Barbette:
The main guns are housed in a "Barbette" that is about 500 dTons (6000 spaces) and contain 3 guns per Barbette. (20m dia x 24m tall cylinder). The "6000 space Large Turret" requires 100 weapon points for the turret (1 per 60 spaces). Each weapon beyond the first will require an additional weapon point. By the rules, the 80 "weapons" (Artillery Gun-TL 4) that comprise each 16" gun will use 80 weapon points (for coaxial mounts) in addition to the 100 weapon points for the turret itself. Three 16" guns in a 6000 space turret will require 100 wp for the turret + 3 x 80 wp for the guns ... 340 Weapon Points per 3 Gun 500 ton Barbette.

Now to calculate spaces inside the 6000 space "Turret": 3 spaces for gunner plus spaces for weapons. The best damage available to us in a projectile at TL 5 is the Artillery Gun-TL 4 at 8D6 and 24 spaces per gun. Since there are three 16" guns per turret, I want each gun to be something less than 1999 spaces (6000-3 = 5997; 5997/3 = 1999). So that means that each 16" gun can be replaced by 80 (rounding down) Artillery Gun-TL 4 firing an (80x8D6) shot at 1 target. Three 16" guns fit in a turret so that makes:

• 3 spaces gunner
• 1920 spaces Gun 1 (80 x Artillery Gun-TL 4 @ 24 spaces)
• 1920 spaces Gun 2 (80 x Artillery Gun-TL 4 @ 24 spaces)
• 1920 spaces Gun 3 (80 x Artillery Gun-TL 4 @ 24 spaces)
• 237 spaces unused (allows for 79 additional crewmen at 3 spaces each)

Mounting three 500 ton Barbette will use 1020 weapon points and 18,000 spaces, while providing 720 Artillery Gun-TL 4.

Armaments

• Three 500 ton Barbettes [Primary Armament]
• Large Turrets (x3) = - 9 spaces
• Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x720) = - 17,280 spaces [1020 weapon points taken]
• Bonus gunners & loaders (x 237) = - 711 spaces

(to be continued)

 

[Timerover51]

I don't intend to discuss you any of this, as I concede you have quite superior knowledge tan myslef about RW ship design.

What I am saying here, is that IMHO the Iowas, as, AFAIK, curring edge WWII tech, should be TL6, with the changes this may bring.

Set's see the details in CT/MT among TL5 and TL6 (I don't know if CE¹ has changed this), according MT:RC pages 28/29, more or less equivalent to the tables in TTB pages 86-87:

Field	TL5	TL6
Time span(TTB)	Circa 1900-1939	Circa 1940-1969
Time span (MT:RM)	Circa 19302	Circa 19502
Personal military	Grenades, shotguns	Automatic weapons, SMGs
Heavy Weapons	Armored cars, Mortars	Nukes, Missiles
Computers	Electroni. Model 1	Electronic, Model 1 Bis
Communications	Radio, Radar	Television
Land Transport	Ground Cars, Tracked vehicles	Amphibian vehicles, Advanced ATV/AFVs
Water transport	Steel hulls, Early subs	Advanced subs, Scubba
Air Transport	Airplanes, seaplaned	Early jets, Helicopters

As you can see, at grosso modo TL5 is WWI, while TL6 is WWII/Korean war, and the Iowas would be, more or less, early TL6. I don't know how this can change this dsing, quite an interesting exercise in any case.



Fully agreed, as I stated both, in my former post and above.

Note 1: I previously said T5, sorry for this, my fault
Note 2: despite the dates, see that the detailed table puts it more closer to TTB​

McPerth, I really would rather not get into an extended discuss of correct Tech Levels for various items of equipment. I do view battleships as being at the following levels: ships up to and including the pre-Dreadnaught battleships are Tech Level 4, ships from the HMS Dreadnaught to the USS Iowa-class are Tech Level 5, and all ships built post-WW 2 are Tech Level 6.

There are some mistakes in the tables you posted. The most severe are the grenades and mortars, both dating from the 1600s.

 

[Straybow]

I don't think "double occupancy staterooms" would describe 20th century naval accommodations. An enlisted bunk might be half the size of a low berth, including an allowance for the narrow walkway between the racks (3 high on each side in some cases). An officer's room would certainly be no more than 1 dton, and that would include about ¼ dton for it's share of the corridor.