Credits and Dollars

[ShapeShifter]

How can I explain to new players the purchasing power of the Imperial Credit in terms of the US dollar? Based on what I've seen in the rulebooks it does not at all look like a 1:1 ratio. Is there a canonical source quote that could come to the rescue? I am also seeking infos on the typical daily wages in credits, yearly salaries in credits to further illustrate that pecuniary unit's value.

I did a search for "credit", but have no time in my work-day for wading through 16 pages of threads that it collated.

Any suggestions most welcome.

 

[FreeTrav]

Nothing canonical, but back around 1980ish, the PPP ratio came out to about $3=Cr1.

I prefer using purchasing power parity to trying to equate pay rates. So, look at (for example) the price of a ground car in Traveller, and assume that that's about $20000-$25000 equivalent, and there's one possible ratio for the credit.

But remember, Traveller isn't realistic, it's playable. Just use whatever ratio "feels right" for your purposes.

 

[Supplement Four]

Is that correct, Jeff?

I bet you'd know better than I, but I seem to recall Marc saying that, originally, $1 = 1Cr. As time and inflation has gained on us, 1Cr could be worth more than a buck in today's terms.

Memory is hazy. I may be speaking out my butt.

Anybody know for sure?





PS - Semi-sorta the same topic: There is a nice exchange rate chart in a few of the JTAS articles, created by Dave N., I think, that helps a GM convert Imperial credits to local currency.

Evidently, not all worlds in the empire use the Imperial credit as their money standard. Many still use their own local currency, with only the starport and immediate surrounding area accepting Imperial credits. The chart is based on starport class and TL (or maybe Pop?), IIRC.

 

[Horatius]

The Big Blue Traveller Book (hardbound edition c. 1985) says that the credit is worth $3-$5. If Marc started CT at $1=1cr, then I guess inflation had set in.

 

[Hemdian]

I seem to recall Marc saying that, originally, $1 = 1Cr.

I have a similar recollection. I've always used 1 Crimp (Imperial Credit) = 1 US$ circa 1980.

PS - Semi-sorta the same topic: There is a nice exchange rate chart in a few of the JTAS articles, created by Dave N., I think, that helps a GM convert Imperial credits to local currency.

Evidently, not all worlds in the empire use the Imperial credit as their money standard. Many still use their own local currency, with only the starport and immediate surrounding area accepting Imperial credits. The chart is based on starport class and TL (or maybe Pop?), IIRC.

Do you mean the article "Trade and Commerce" in JTAS4? That was credited to Frank Chadwick. Actually, I think it converted Crimps into a notional currency called a 'local credit'. The actual local currency would have been in a completely random but fixed ratio to the local credit. And for primative worlds (I hesitate to say low tech worlds) there's no reason why the local currency unit is even decimal.

So, for example, if a local credit is worth 1000 Feri Yen, you can take local wages and the price of local goods and services straight out of the book and multiply by 1000. But if the local credit on Feri is worth 0.75 Crimps (as that JTAS article suggests) that means that offworld goods are more expensive ... 1333 Feri Yen to the Crimp. (That's x1/0.75 in case you were wondering.)

That's why you sometimes see news reports from third world countries where reports claim someone trying to survive on 50 cents a weeks or somesuch. Those reports don't put that in context of local prices. But if a loaf of bread locally costs 1 cent then you get a truer understanding.

(Of course the value of the local credit in terms of Crimps should fluctuate over time depending on how the local economy is doing in relation to its nearby trading partners.)

 

[aramis]

The Big Blue Traveller Book (hardbound edition c. 1985) says that the credit is worth $3-$5. If Marc started CT at $1=1cr, then I guess inflation had set in.

Page number, please? I've been looking in my much beat up black TTB for it...

 

[FreeTrav]

I checked my CT CD, and didn't find anything; that doesn't mean that I didn't miss anything, though - I'm human, hence fallible.

That admitted, I still would tend to ignore any statement, even canonical, on a fixed official exchange rate between CrImp and USD; I tend to use the Purchasing Power Parity model for establishing exchange instead. The hardest issue with respect to PPP is selecting the goods or services - or basket thereof - that are taken as 'representative' for the purposes of comparison. I don't usually use food - at least not alone - because the pricing is usually distorted from true value (price supports and agricultural subsidies, for example). The trick, IMO, is to find comparable (broadly speaking) goods that are either not imported, or where the cost of importation is also comparable.

 

[ShapeShifter]

Hm. LBB3, p. 21 states that a ground car is Cr4000. If I suppose Cr1:$10, that should not be too terribly off. However it would make the fixed wing aircraft only ten million! o: Not really enough, I should think.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Confusion.

Hm. LBB3, p. 21 states that a ground car is Cr4000. If I suppose Cr1:$10, that should not be too terribly off. However it would make the fixed wing aircraft only ten million! o: Not really enough, I should think.

Why do you think a fix wing aircraft is too low priced at US$10 million?

Maybe, and I stress maybe for a fighter plane, but a Piper Cub is not that expensive, really. Most Sport Pilot aircraft can be had for well under 10 million.

At US$ 10 million, I would expect the aircraft to be jet propelled and have some rather nice accouterments, but that just might be me.

EDIT: Oh and one last thing, a lot of this is hashed out quite nicely in T5, but I would need permission from on high to go into more detail...

 

[Supplement Four]

Hm. LBB3, p. 21 states that a ground car is Cr4000. If I suppose Cr1:$10, that should not be too terribly off. However it would make the fixed wing aircraft only ten million! o: Not really enough, I should think.

Which goes back to my upthread statement that, originally, Cr1 = $1.

According to This Web Site, and This Web Site, the average price of a new car was $4785.

Since the game was created around that time, this looks to be some strong evidence that Cr1 = $1 originally.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I seem to remember T4 saying that it's $3 to the Credit. I'll have to look it up.

 

[ShapeShifter]

Which goes back to my upthread statement that, originally, Cr1 = $1.

According to This Web Site, and This Web Site, the average price of a new car was $4785.

Since the game was created around that time, this looks to be some strong evidence that Cr1 = $1 originally.

These are very convincing arguments. I, reflexively, was relating to today's dollar. Stoopid me.

 

[Icosahedron]

Tell me again, why does this matter?

Credits are credits. The 3I is a star-spanning realm with it's own peculiar economy. On some worlds guns might cost more than cars, a hot dog might cost more than either. What difference does it make?

We had the same thing in the UK with decimalisation, and later with the nearby introduction of the Euro. It really doesn't matter, and constant converting back achieves nothing. You're much better off deciding that credits and dollars are unrelated.
You are given incomes and expenditures in the books - just use those and forget dollars.

 

[Kyron]

it's at least interesting if you pull out a catalogue with nice gadgets and say: "I want this thing here, how many credits do i have to pay?"

 

[Supplement Four]

Tell me again, why does this matter?

Credits are credits.

....

You are given incomes and expenditures in the books - just use those and forget dollars.

Your point is well taken, but Kyron has a point as well.

CT is certainly a game that encourages players and GMs to "make up" what they need in the game. So, a player comes to the GM and says he wants one of those gizmos that straps to your arm and slides a small pistol into your hand when the device is triggered. The PC wants to conceal it under his clothes.

Well, there's nothing quite like that in the game. Yet, it exists, at a fairly low tech level, too.

So...how much is it?

One could use a version of the "Holsters and Accessories" rule, which says these items are usually 10-20% of the weapon. In this case, maybe make it 25-30% and be done with it.

But...in this day an age...the crafty player comes to the game with a picture of such a device he printed off from some supply store on the net. The device is made of plastic, so it won't be detected with metal detectors, and it runs $999.

What! Four of them = a ground car!?

See..we're thinking in 2009 terms.

In this example, it helps to know the purchasing power of a credit. To be accurate, we'd have to figure what the device would cost in 1977.

Personally, I wouldn't make it that complicated. I'd just use the 25-30% quicky and be done with it.

Still, though, say your player has his character walking through a bazaar on a world and picks up a purple, egg-like thing. The natives love them. They eat them, and they are, indeed, eggs.

How much?

The GM things about a carton of eggs today and says that they cost Cr2 credits.

What the GM should do, to be a little more accurate, is estimate what the eggs cost in 1977.

Say they cost Cr1 for two cartons. Spend Cr2 and get the fifth carton free.

 

[PVernon]

In my Consolidated equipment list I assumed that the cr was the same as a 1977 dollar, and that a GT cr is equal to the dollar for it's publication year. In the front of the equipment list there is a convetion factor to go from one to another. I think that I incuded the conversion factor for the equiment lists pub year back to 1977 as well.

 

[ShapeShifter]

Still, though, say your player has his character walking through a bazaar on a world and picks up a purple, egg-like thing. The natives love them. They eat them, and they are, indeed, eggs.

"Aaaaa! You horrible earth-creature! You've eaten my babies! Help! Constable! Eeeee!"



BTW, what are the subdivisions of the Crimp? Cents?


Given the old, feudal nature of the Imperium you would think that they'd use something more reminiscent of the various units used by the nations, principalities, baronies, bishoprics, etc. of the Holy Roman Empire with their batzens and kreuzers, groschens and hellers. Food for thought. *burp*

 

[Ishmael]

How about just taking the gross per capita income of the USA now and dividing it by the gross per capita of a typical Imp citizen? That should give a reasonable exchange rate.

CIA Factbook says 2008 per capita income was $46,900.
If you use 22,000-24,000 Crimps as your per capita income, then 1 Crimp is about $2.00 using 2008 figures.

 

[Icosahedron]

Your point is well taken, but Kyron has a point as well.

CT is certainly a game that encourages players and GMs to "make up" what they need in the game. So, a player comes to the GM and says he wants one of those gizmos that straps to your arm and slides a small pistol into your hand when the device is triggered. The PC wants to conceal it under his clothes.

Well, there's nothing quite like that in the game. Yet, it exists, at a fairly low tech level, too.

So...how much is it?

One could use a version of the "Holsters and Accessories" rule, which says these items are usually 10-20% of the weapon. In this case, maybe make it 25-30% and be done with it.

But...in this day an age...the crafty player comes to the game with a picture of such a device he printed off from some supply store on the net. The device is made of plastic, so it won't be detected with metal detectors, and it runs $999.

What! Four of them = a ground car!?

See..we're thinking in 2009 terms.

In this example, it helps to know the purchasing power of a credit. To be accurate, we'd have to figure what the device would cost in 1977.

Personally, I wouldn't make it that complicated. I'd just use the 25-30% quicky and be done with it.

Still, though, say your player has his character walking through a bazaar on a world and picks up a purple, egg-like thing. The natives love them. They eat them, and they are, indeed, eggs.

How much?

The GM things about a carton of eggs today and says that they cost Cr2 credits.

What the GM should do, to be a little more accurate, is estimate what the eggs cost in 1977.

Say they cost Cr1 for two cartons. Spend Cr2 and get the fifth carton free.

I appreciate Kyron's point, but your reply here really just underlines my own point, that you can't really compare Imperial prices with American prices.

The GM just needs to compare the price of a gun with the player's object of desire (since it's gun-related) and come up with a price. If the thing is designed to hold a Cr250 pistol, then it probably won't cost more than Cr250, and probably will be around Cr100.

The eggs? Well, they're food related. A check in LBB3 tells us that food purchased for home preparation is around Cr5 per day, so the eggs will be somewhat less than a credit - unless they're an expensive delicacy.

Car accessories? Figure what percentage of a car's value they should be, look up the cost of a car and do the maths.

See, you can figure all these things out without referring to dollars at all.

 

[Supplement Four]

I appreciate Kyron's point, but your reply here really just underlines my own point, that you can't really compare Imperial prices with American prices.

You could in 1977.

The GM just needs to compare the price of a gun with the player's object of desire (since it's gun-related) and come up with a price. If the thing is designed to hold a Cr250 pistol, then it probably won't cost more than Cr250, and probably will be around Cr100.

But, instead of worring about what things cost in 1977, I'd do it the way you're doing it and be done with it.

See, you can figure all these things out without referring to dollars at all.

Agreed. But, that doesn't answer the OP well. The original question is about Credits and Dollars.