IIRC, as rules are in CT, Instruction skill can also teach a technical skill in 6 weeks...
Skill Improvement and "Experience"
- Thread starter DickNervous
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IIRC, as rules are in CT, Instruction skill can also teach a technical skill in 6 weeks...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Like I said - broken.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Just some info for those trying to compare real world hours to Traveller skills.
Discussing this got me to thinking and I pulled out some old paperwork. While I was in the service, I joined the Department of Labor apprenticeship program so that I could have my work in the military count toward the hours required for trade certification. The federal trade certification required me to complete a certain number of hours in 10 different skills for a total of 8000 hours as an apprentice.
The requirements to take the exam to become a licensed Architect are similar ...
A Five year Bachelor of Architecture (160 undergraduate credits) and completing the Intern Development Program (5600 hours).
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Before you start using those additional hours as a basis for getting skills, do a little thinking.
For a CPA in Illinois to be licensed to perform, and more importantly, sign an audit statement, 2 years work at a licensed accounting firm is required. My wife has friends that have gone that route. You do get some practical experience in auditing, however, you are paid only slightly above minimum wage, typically work 80 hour weeks, but as you are salaried those hours are free to the firm, and do ALL of the dirty work required. Basically, that 2 year requirement is so accounting firms can get really cheap labor. And as most accounting firms are partnerships, junior partners and hired help are not paid that much. The senior partners, who do very little work, are the ones that make the money.
For a CPA in Illinois to be licensed to perform, and more importantly, sign an audit statement, 2 years work at a licensed accounting firm is required. My wife has friends that have gone that route. You do get some practical experience in auditing, however, you are paid only slightly above minimum wage, typically work 80 hour weeks, but as you are salaried those hours are free to the firm, and do ALL of the dirty work required. Basically, that 2 year requirement is so accounting firms can get really cheap labor. And as most accounting firms are partnerships, junior partners and hired help are not paid that much. The senior partners, who do very little work, are the ones that make the money.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
And for those discussing Traveller driver skill level vs real life, here are some of the requirements for my state.
1) First, pass a certified Driver Education Course.
2) Obtain a Level One Learner's Permit which requires supervision (required to be 25yo or more) at all times for the first six months.
3) The sponsor shall certify that the permit holder has driven for 50 hours; 10 of which includes night-time driving. The certification is to be turned into the Department of Education after the first six months of valid driving authority.
4) After the first six months of valid Level One Learner's Permit driving, driving is still restricted. The permit holder may drive unsupervised between the hours of 6:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m only.
5) You do not get unrestricted eligibility until the permit holder is at least 17 years old and is credited with 12 months Delaware Level One Learner’s Permit experience.
Has anyone played that at Drive level 0 one needs supervision, can not drive in the dark, is restricted in carrying passengers? If not, you are looking at at least a year before you have unrestricted driving and that level 0.
Something to keep in mind is the new driver in real life. There is a reason their insurance rates are so high - they are inexperienced and still learning to drive. I'd dare say that many people are easily "novice" level 0 until somewhere in their 20s. Some people learn bad habits and may never get to level 1. Some people take advanced courses and have lots of experience with numerous vehicles in a variety of driving conditions and even drive professionally - but I dare say the average driver is not all the way up to Traveller level 2 skill.
Again, keep in mind that Drive 0 is broad in Traveller. It includes Mole, Tracked, and Wheeled.
Should wheeled include an 18 wheeler? I don't know what all the additional requirements are for a CDL permit but I believe you must first have your non commercial DL, pass written tests, in most states be at least 18 years old with one or two years of driving experience depending on the state. To drive interstate, you must be at least 21 years old.
So I don't think it is unreasonable for one to say that it takes 2-4 years in real life to get to something like the Travellerish driving skill of 0.
YMMV
1) First, pass a certified Driver Education Course.
2) Obtain a Level One Learner's Permit which requires supervision (required to be 25yo or more) at all times for the first six months.
3) The sponsor shall certify that the permit holder has driven for 50 hours; 10 of which includes night-time driving. The certification is to be turned into the Department of Education after the first six months of valid driving authority.
4) After the first six months of valid Level One Learner's Permit driving, driving is still restricted. The permit holder may drive unsupervised between the hours of 6:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m only.
5) You do not get unrestricted eligibility until the permit holder is at least 17 years old and is credited with 12 months Delaware Level One Learner’s Permit experience.
Has anyone played that at Drive level 0 one needs supervision, can not drive in the dark, is restricted in carrying passengers? If not, you are looking at at least a year before you have unrestricted driving and that level 0.
Something to keep in mind is the new driver in real life. There is a reason their insurance rates are so high - they are inexperienced and still learning to drive. I'd dare say that many people are easily "novice" level 0 until somewhere in their 20s. Some people learn bad habits and may never get to level 1. Some people take advanced courses and have lots of experience with numerous vehicles in a variety of driving conditions and even drive professionally - but I dare say the average driver is not all the way up to Traveller level 2 skill.
Again, keep in mind that Drive 0 is broad in Traveller. It includes Mole, Tracked, and Wheeled.
Should wheeled include an 18 wheeler? I don't know what all the additional requirements are for a CDL permit but I believe you must first have your non commercial DL, pass written tests, in most states be at least 18 years old with one or two years of driving experience depending on the state. To drive interstate, you must be at least 21 years old.
So I don't think it is unreasonable for one to say that it takes 2-4 years in real life to get to something like the Travellerish driving skill of 0.
YMMV
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
I underlined a pertinent part. Whatever issues one may have with the system described, it seams to me the person is more skilled after their 2 years. It seams to me that the senior partners that "do very little work" went through the same process and are thus more experienced and likely higher skilled. I see a transition from level to level with some measure of time.
Not sure that any other career or even someones TU might not have similar structures of junior people being treated poorly while senior people supervise, advance other skills like maybe leadership, instruction, admin, and golfing/carouse = keep those big clients happy, and take the credit.
In fact, in a high tech world with lots of automation, and if one believes people live and work longer, it's possible jobs would be rare and advanced training may be restricted or expensive or otherwise unavailable for considerable amounts of time until one has "payed their dues".
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The practical experience in auditing consists of putting receipts into a computer. It is a pure, 100%, scam, and is widely viewed as such. You have a very naive view of how Illinois works.
Agreed. In fact, the best description for instruction skill I've seen is the one in T4, where the skill serves to direct someone in using a skill or to tech a skill, but in the latter case the time is left enterely to the referee to determine.
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
You are correct that I know very little about how Illinois works, or based on your comments should we say doesn't work? :devil:
Not sure why you are pointing that out? If there was something I posted that was disputing what you said about Illinois, I'm sorry. Perhaps you could point out the specifics so that we can correct any misperceptions either of us may have?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
My apologies, as it is a sore point in the family. My wife passed the CPA exam in 1986, and has been doing accounting work for even longer. She has been doing taxes professionally for over 25 years, and several not-for-profit organizations use her for audits required by their national headquarters, viewing her as fully meeting their requirements to perform an audit, even if not licensed by the state of Illinois. With all of that experience, for her to be licensed as a CPA in the State of Illinois, she would have to spend 2 years working for an accounting firm. Essentially, actual experience is meaningless when it comes to that piece of paper. Based on some of her tax clients, she if far more competent that many people who are licensed as Certified Public Accountants in the State of Illinois.
That is why I take the attitude that skill advance in Traveller has to depend more on what skill you are dealing with, rather than a one-way fits all approach. That is also not the easiest thing to explain how to do in a rule book.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
True, the requirements for advancement for each skill level for every skill is totally up to individual perception and can vary from skill to skill and person to person.
For a game mechanic, I believe people do need something simpler than reality and something that at least the majority can live with.
Perhaps the start of a unified, one-way fits all approach version is to stop looking at it from "this is what I believe" skill such and such represents and looking at what a game mechanics say skill such and such represents.
For example
Level 0 in a skill, any skill, is the competency one has after successfully achieving xx amount of time/experience/instruction.
Level 1 in a skill, any skill, is the level of competency after successfully achieving yy amount of time/experience/instruction.
But I know a Sally who became a skill/level in such and such time! Joe took such and such time going to night school and Jim took half that going to school full time!
Bill got lucky and their dad gave them a job in the company business, Bob had to move up in responsibility after spending much time doing menial work to pay their dues!
Use typical game mechanic modifiers and a task to represent the realism. Some randomness for the lucky and unlucky folk or variations in learning throughout the universe? The random dice results of a task check. Use effect as a variable. DMs based on characteristics that represent people of different abilities. Modifiers based on how you learn (do it yourself trial and error in spare time vs dedicated time in an educational setting). Perhaps even a list of DMs for specific skills that one thinks should be harder or take less time.
Lots of possible variation but it all starts with a unified:
A level zero is someone that has xx and a level 1 is someone that has yy.
If people could set aside their personal notion of what a level 1 is vs a level 2 and agree to let a game mechanic define it, we might have something. Not perfect, but something most people could live with?
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