Crewing questions.
- Thread starter Magnus von Thornwood
- Start date
it's hardly universal. It certainly isn't used that way in the USN materials I've read... both uses get capitalized. They are abbreviated differently, tho... the Rank is abbreviated Capt. while the position is CO.
While there is a slight tendency to call captain-rank officers by their position if not the CO, no one has proved that to actually be policy.
Likewise, Skipper for non-Captain CO's has been used informally in the USN starting in WW I and through the late 1990's, but whether it was policy or not...
The use of capitals thing isn't official- I just used it as a useful shorthand to try and make my post a little clearer. Sorry for any added confusion!
In the RN, the ship's captain is still called the captain, regardless of rank; interestingly enough, onboard Marine officers with the rank of Captain are often called "Major" while on board- just to make it clear who the captain is!
As for officers of the same rank... at BRNC Dartmouth, the Commanding Officer (the captain) had an exec whose traditional title matched the title of the exec on a capital ship- the commander. During my time there, the commander was promoted to the rank of Captain. After that, the captain was still referred to as the captain- the commander was referred to by name as "Captain <name>".
Confused yet? Because I was...
In the RN, the ship's captain is still called the captain, regardless of rank; interestingly enough, onboard Marine officers with the rank of Captain are often called "Major" while on board- just to make it clear who the captain is!
As for officers of the same rank... at BRNC Dartmouth, the Commanding Officer (the captain) had an exec whose traditional title matched the title of the exec on a capital ship- the commander. During my time there, the commander was promoted to the rank of Captain. After that, the captain was still referred to as the captain- the commander was referred to by name as "Captain <name>".
Confused yet? Because I was...
Loved the O’Brien books, loved the movie too but they aren’t the same. Anyway…if you really want something more akin to that sort of crewing then you could try what I have for my ships.
What you have looks good but I’d change a few things:
A Commander is the XO and 2nd Pilot. That way if the 1st Pilot goes down then he can conn the ship. It also reflects that on a largely automated starship the navigator is going to spend more time actually conning the ship anyway. And if they are in jump then there’s not much for any pilot to do anyway.
And as the Astrogator goes , I’d make him a Warrant Officer called the Astrogation or Sailing Master, and his second being the Master’s Mate. Both would fall under the Signals and Astrogation Division.
First, you need some midshipmen: no ship can run without them around to act as signals officers, talkers, runners, and generally “expendable” officers to act as gofers and what not. So I’d have the 1st Lt. oversee the Signals and Astrogation Division with several Middies to cover the watches in each section. Must not overlook having a few squeakers and young gentlemen aboard to teach them the trade and allow the nobility a way to cull their herd of those not likely to inherit.
Gunnery Division can be under the 2nd Lt as Chief Gunnery Officer, while the Master Gunner CPO will act as CPO’s generally do: actually run the division. And there ought to be a Middie assigned to the 2nd Lt for covering the watch when the Lt is off duty. See – need more midshipmen to officer the watches.
3rd Lt oversees Engineering as the Chief Engineer with again, a CPO Master Engineer to really run things as in Gunnery.
For this “Chief of Boat” thing, well, it’s a ship not a boat so I’d just leave it as Bosun. Tradition and all. In my universe they basically run the “lower decks” or deck department anyway so the job covers all the traditional duties bosuns have always done.
Anyway, just some suggestions based on how I crew the ships in my Navy being a long time Hornblower/Bolitho/Aubrey fan since I was a kid. And the precedent in sci fi is the way the MacArthur is crewed in Mote in God’s Eye. Similar structure with traditional names.
For the LT and other ranks you use whatever works in the game for you, but I have some rules of my own for what the different ranks qualify you to command: such as Captains get battleships and Cruisers, Commanders get destroyers, frigates and corvettes, and Lt Commanders get non-starship warcraft like SDB’s. And while an 800 tonner might not qualify as much of a rated ship in my game for a diplomatic vessel I’d say it held enough importance to have an actual Captain for commanding it instead of a commander.
What you have looks good but I’d change a few things:
A Commander is the XO and 2nd Pilot. That way if the 1st Pilot goes down then he can conn the ship. It also reflects that on a largely automated starship the navigator is going to spend more time actually conning the ship anyway. And if they are in jump then there’s not much for any pilot to do anyway.
And as the Astrogator goes , I’d make him a Warrant Officer called the Astrogation or Sailing Master, and his second being the Master’s Mate. Both would fall under the Signals and Astrogation Division.
First, you need some midshipmen: no ship can run without them around to act as signals officers, talkers, runners, and generally “expendable” officers to act as gofers and what not. So I’d have the 1st Lt. oversee the Signals and Astrogation Division with several Middies to cover the watches in each section. Must not overlook having a few squeakers and young gentlemen aboard to teach them the trade and allow the nobility a way to cull their herd of those not likely to inherit.
Gunnery Division can be under the 2nd Lt as Chief Gunnery Officer, while the Master Gunner CPO will act as CPO’s generally do: actually run the division. And there ought to be a Middie assigned to the 2nd Lt for covering the watch when the Lt is off duty. See – need more midshipmen to officer the watches.
3rd Lt oversees Engineering as the Chief Engineer with again, a CPO Master Engineer to really run things as in Gunnery.
For this “Chief of Boat” thing, well, it’s a ship not a boat so I’d just leave it as Bosun. Tradition and all. In my universe they basically run the “lower decks” or deck department anyway so the job covers all the traditional duties bosuns have always done.
Anyway, just some suggestions based on how I crew the ships in my Navy being a long time Hornblower/Bolitho/Aubrey fan since I was a kid. And the precedent in sci fi is the way the MacArthur is crewed in Mote in God’s Eye. Similar structure with traditional names.
For the LT and other ranks you use whatever works in the game for you, but I have some rules of my own for what the different ranks qualify you to command: such as Captains get battleships and Cruisers, Commanders get destroyers, frigates and corvettes, and Lt Commanders get non-starship warcraft like SDB’s. And while an 800 tonner might not qualify as much of a rated ship in my game for a diplomatic vessel I’d say it held enough importance to have an actual Captain for commanding it instead of a commander.
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Thank you all, once again.
Special thanks to Sabredog for reminding me of the more proper term (Bosun) and to add some squeakers and youthful Nobs. Completely forgot them.
I am a recent convert to the Age of Sail novels, but I blame Rustin, he mailed me Master and Commander, buttnugget that he is. Been hooked ever since, but then since he does some Historical backstop for me, I figure he thought it would be easier just to let me read for myself. Recently just finished Sea of Glory (?) (non-fiction on the US Exploratory Expedition.)
So everyone has given me fuel for thought.
As for the ship's size, well, it really comes down to my messing with T5 ACS and volunteering to run a playtest game. *shrugs* Also in the interests of full disclosure, I tend not to have ships the size of the ones in Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. They just seemed too big compared to what I was used to (CT Book 2), that is why they are Events. And last but not least, there are all sorts of hinky politics going on. :devil:
Any more comments?
Special thanks to Sabredog for reminding me of the more proper term (Bosun) and to add some squeakers and youthful Nobs. Completely forgot them.
I am a recent convert to the Age of Sail novels, but I blame Rustin, he mailed me Master and Commander, buttnugget that he is. Been hooked ever since, but then since he does some Historical backstop for me, I figure he thought it would be easier just to let me read for myself. Recently just finished Sea of Glory (?) (non-fiction on the US Exploratory Expedition.)
So everyone has given me fuel for thought.
As for the ship's size, well, it really comes down to my messing with T5 ACS and volunteering to run a playtest game. *shrugs* Also in the interests of full disclosure, I tend not to have ships the size of the ones in Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. They just seemed too big compared to what I was used to (CT Book 2), that is why they are Events. And last but not least, there are all sorts of hinky politics going on. :devil:
Any more comments?
Only that while the only real way to truly appreciate the Aubrey/Maturin novels is to read them in order, two books are of interest as being primarily examples of diplomatic missions to gain the alliance of "barbarian"-type smaller powers who can provide strategically important ports if the French don't get there first. While Aubrey deals with the naval issues Maturin is on shore more than usual doing the spy thing. In one novel the , uh novel way he eliminates a pair of notorious enemy agents is pretty amazing.
But for Traveller adventure ideas:
The Ionian Mission and Treason's Harbor...both have plenty of politicking, but the scheming and "all sorts of hinky politics" are in Treason's Harbor. Both can provide ideas on adventures involving a diplomatic ship like the one you designed being sent out on it's own to open new trade routes or seek alliances on the frontiers too far to keep a large fleet at. Opportunities for clever and dashing intel officers abound.
But for Traveller adventure ideas:
The Ionian Mission and Treason's Harbor...both have plenty of politicking, but the scheming and "all sorts of hinky politics" are in Treason's Harbor. Both can provide ideas on adventures involving a diplomatic ship like the one you designed being sent out on it's own to open new trade routes or seek alliances on the frontiers too far to keep a large fleet at. Opportunities for clever and dashing intel officers abound.
Neato
So far, got Master and Commander, the South Seas one that takes place after they get captured by the USN (which I also read).
As for the mentioned Adventure's don't recognize the titles. More info please?
Yeah, well, I read them as I get them and so I think I know of the Maturin's plot is that the one with the letters, perhaps?
So far, got Master and Commander, the South Seas one that takes place after they get captured by the USN (which I also read).As for the mentioned Adventure's don't recognize the titles. More info please?
In The Ionian Mission Aubrey in Surprise and Babbington in the Dryad are sent to figure out which of three Turkish Beys to ally with to prevent the French from establishing a base that would cut the British off from the Ionian Sea.
Each Bey is radically different from each other, and all are enemies. While Maturin is doing his intelligence thing with the diplomatic party Aubrey is trying to find out where the French are lurking so they can help fortify the chosen Bey with the guns brought for the purpose before attacked. The politicking between the different courts is interesting and has a lot of potential. As does the requisite ship battle with a Turkish frigate that out guns (naturally) the Surprise.
In 13 Gun Salute (sorry, Treason’s Harbor is different – my bad…there are so many of the books) the action takes place in the Far East where the French are preying on East India Company shipping, as are pirates. When Aubrey arrives with an Envoy to seek a treaty with the local Sultan so they can get the already established French booted out one way or another. The treaty will also stop the piracy. The intricacies of the court and the dueling diplomatic parties are fun and the actions Maturin takes to hunt down two British traitors who are French agents are rewarding.
Some similarities are found in the Flandry tale, Honorable Enemies, where Flandry (as part of a diplomatic mission) duels literally and figuratively with his arch-nemesis Aycharyach (spy for the enemy Mersians) while the two sides vie for a treaty with the barbarian ruler of some strategically important corridor of space on the edge of the Terran Empire. While having to go to various parties and a alien “tiger” hunt to amuse the ruler the two foes get to know each other a little better but the story ends with a sword fight between Flandry and Aycharyach in the middle of the court. Good space opera and again, good inspiration for diplomatic adventures that don’t just involve endless meetings and lots of paperwork.
Plug the players in as either the military, diplomatic, or intelligence component of anything like these stories and you'd have a ready-made adventure for even Traveller. Just give the tigers two heads or something and the local Poobah four arms. Nefarious Zhodani = wily French.
I do it all the time. I get away with it because nobody I've ever played with (with one exception) ever read any of the Flandry stories or anything like the Aubrey/Maturin books.
Each Bey is radically different from each other, and all are enemies. While Maturin is doing his intelligence thing with the diplomatic party Aubrey is trying to find out where the French are lurking so they can help fortify the chosen Bey with the guns brought for the purpose before attacked. The politicking between the different courts is interesting and has a lot of potential. As does the requisite ship battle with a Turkish frigate that out guns (naturally) the Surprise.
In 13 Gun Salute (sorry, Treason’s Harbor is different – my bad…there are so many of the books) the action takes place in the Far East where the French are preying on East India Company shipping, as are pirates. When Aubrey arrives with an Envoy to seek a treaty with the local Sultan so they can get the already established French booted out one way or another. The treaty will also stop the piracy. The intricacies of the court and the dueling diplomatic parties are fun and the actions Maturin takes to hunt down two British traitors who are French agents are rewarding.
Some similarities are found in the Flandry tale, Honorable Enemies, where Flandry (as part of a diplomatic mission) duels literally and figuratively with his arch-nemesis Aycharyach (spy for the enemy Mersians) while the two sides vie for a treaty with the barbarian ruler of some strategically important corridor of space on the edge of the Terran Empire. While having to go to various parties and a alien “tiger” hunt to amuse the ruler the two foes get to know each other a little better but the story ends with a sword fight between Flandry and Aycharyach in the middle of the court. Good space opera and again, good inspiration for diplomatic adventures that don’t just involve endless meetings and lots of paperwork.
Plug the players in as either the military, diplomatic, or intelligence component of anything like these stories and you'd have a ready-made adventure for even Traveller. Just give the tigers two heads or something and the local Poobah four arms. Nefarious Zhodani = wily French.
I do it all the time. I get away with it because nobody I've ever played with (with one exception) ever read any of the Flandry stories or anything like the Aubrey/Maturin books.
Major B
SOC-14 1K
Sorry for being tardy Magnus. Been busy lately. Here's a quick reply though.
The first snip argues for higher ranks for most officer positions, since the IN command types would not be pleased to get hate mail from the IDC.
The second snip makes me wonder where the marines are? IMTU (and many don't agree but it works for my universe) this ship would probably have a team of 4. For this mission I'd see this being increased to at least a squad (of 9) or probably a light section (of 14). The light section would be seen as preferable since it would put an officer in charge of the PSD, but the number of troops is excessive so maybe a light section but with one of the three teams detached for a total of 10 (including the O1 section leader).
Here are some more specific ideas. Most are in line with other posts but some are more to my taste (MTU) so take them for what they're worth to you:
Captain (CMDR) would rate an LT - bump to LCDR due to mission?
Executive Officer/First Astrogator (LCMD) LTJG - bump to LT?
First Pilot (LT) LTJG
Second Astrogator (Ensign)
Second Pilot (Ensign) or LTJG just promoted pending transfer?
Chief of Boat (CPO)
Chief Engineer (LCMD) Ensign or LTJG
Engineer (CPO)
Engineering (PO)
Engineering (Mate 1st)
Ship's Doctor might be a PA IMTU but for this mission it fits
Ship's Medic (CPO) PO 1st class
Signals Officer (LTJG) PO 1st class
Signals (CPO) PO 2nd class
Signals (PO) Mate 1st (using your terminology)
Signals (Mate 1st) change to admin/legal officer
Signals (Mate 1st) change to admin/legal assistant yeoman
Signals (Mate 2nd) computer systems PO 2nd class
Signals (Mate 3rd) intel / sensors tech PO 2nd class
Gunner (CPO) PO 1st class
Gunner (PO) PO 2nd class
Gunner (Mate 1st)
Gunner (Mate 2nd) another steward - this is a yacht after all
Steward
Frieghtmaster
Hope this is a help Magnus.
Hey Major!
No problem, I know your RL is a bit more pressing than CotI, still glad to see you posting.
Now, as for your suggestions, thanks. Now I have to figure out where I can squeeze Marines in. (Worse I didn't even think of ship's troops.)
Actually I am glad I did post this, it turns out I was right and seem to have missed a few real obvious things now that they have been pointed out. Love that hindsight.
So next on the agenda is to put all this in the Crew Processor and see what I can pour into the baking pan.
Again, a hearty thank you all to everyone for their contributions, even if it does some mean more work for me. How did that happen any way, I was supposed to be outsourcing the work. Now I got more to do. "Battle plans never survive first engagement with the enemy." I really have to remember this one better.
Laterness,
Magnus.
No problem, I know your RL is a bit more pressing than CotI, still glad to see you posting.
Now, as for your suggestions, thanks. Now I have to figure out where I can squeeze Marines in. (Worse I didn't even think of ship's troops.)
Actually I am glad I did post this, it turns out I was right and seem to have missed a few real obvious things now that they have been pointed out. Love that hindsight.
So next on the agenda is to put all this in the Crew Processor and see what I can pour into the baking pan.
Again, a hearty thank you all to everyone for their contributions, even if it does some mean more work for me. How did that happen any way, I was supposed to be outsourcing the work. Now I got more to do. "Battle plans never survive first engagement with the enemy." I really have to remember this one better.
Laterness,
Magnus.
I've heard anecdotal evidence of this custom as well as anecdotal evidence of the non-existence of this custom. But I've been unable to track down any solid evidence of its existence. Heinlein wrote about it in "Starship Troopers", and several other SF writers have used it for their space navies, but the Real Life basis for it is very elusive.
It's certainly not something that is needed to distinguish between captains.
Hans
Absolutely true- until the ship is in combat. As I said, it is a convention that is often followed; this gives GMs the option to use it or not, whether in OTU or MTU. It does not lessen the authority of the ship's captain in the least (as a naval Captain ranks equal to a Marine Lt Colonel or Army Colonel) while ensuring that in the heat of battle there is no doubt whatsoever who is meant when someone says "Captain."
And why should it be the case when the ship is in combat?
Are you talking Real Life or YTU or OTU? I'm only talking about RL. As I said, I've seen anecdotal evidence of ships where this custom was observed and of ships where it wasn't (Basically, various people who said "I served on the Xxxxx and we did it/didn't do it.") If nothing else, the anecdotes of ships where they didn't do it proves that it isn't always necessary.
In YTU, absolutely; no question. I vaguely recall that it was mentioned as a custom among mercenaries, but I can't find the quote, so I may be mistaken.
Easily accomplished by adding a name.
Hans
Major B
SOC-14 1K
Same here Hans. Pournelle described the custom in West of Honor. I asked my father about it after I read that title and he'd never heard of it used in his 26 years of Navy and Coast Guard service.
The Navy I served in had recently come through a war against a well equipped and determined adversary, including the loss in action of several modern warships. The worst case was an attack on two ships landing troops; the presence of several hundred soldiers, untrained on shipboard damage control, made a serious situation horrific. Once the ship starts to take damage, the confusion factor multiplies beyond recognition; there is no room for ambiguity. The habit of only referring to one Captain means that, when under a much more stressful situation, the engrained behaviour remains.
When I talked about a convention that is often followed, I was talking RW. Not everywhere, not in all Navies- but in some.
Where the OTU rules do not specify one way or the other, then the difference between OTU and MTU is hard to define anyway. Use my examples if they seem useful; if not I will not be offended in the least!
Edited to add; every game I run which has warships in it will have one somewhere, even if the players never encounter it, called Ardent.
When I talked about a convention that is often followed, I was talking RW. Not everywhere, not in all Navies- but in some.
Where the OTU rules do not specify one way or the other, then the difference between OTU and MTU is hard to define anyway. Use my examples if they seem useful; if not I will not be offended in the least!
Edited to add; every game I run which has warships in it will have one somewhere, even if the players never encounter it, called Ardent.
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BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
The name of the ship tells which navy & the war.
HMS Ardent
The Falklands War: An Overview
note the ship losses listed in these sections:
Fighting at Sea:
Landing at San Carlos Water:
Goose Green, Mount Kent, & Bluff Cove/Fitzroy:
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There's a USS Ardent (MCM-12) as well. http://www.navsource.org/archives/11/1212.htm
And an Irish liner Ardent, too.
And a Cargo Ship.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
NONE of which were involved in a recent war involving the ship losses mentioned by Sanjuro!
Note I was editing my post while you were typing yours... my edit makes the relation more clear.
Note I was editing my post while you were typing yours... my edit makes the relation more clear.
If this was a universal problem, it would be a universal custom. But evidently it is not.
I'm talking RW too. Back when I looked into it, I visited both US and British navy and marine homepages, and the customs was apparently not widespread enough in either country to warrant mention on any of the the FAQs. I also asked about it on various forums and got a few replies, none of them conclusive.
I've also read numerous Age of Sail books (Forester, Parkinson, Kent, Pope, O'Brian, and others) and not come across a single reference to any such custom. This is merely fiction, of course, and thus far from conclusive, but all of these authors seem to have researched the period thoroughly. I believe some of them are even acknowledged scholars.
Hans
