Crewing questions.

[sabredog]

I've also read numerous Age of Sail books (Forester, Parkinson, Kent, Pope, O'Brian, and others) and not come across a single reference to any such custom. This is merely fiction, of course, and thus far from conclusive, but all of these authors seem to have researched the period thoroughly. I believe some of them are even acknowledged scholars.

Hans

I've read the same and it is referred to in several of these sources (as well as in historical ones), but it is referred to as only being a courtesy conferred to avoid confusion among the ranks for the sake of running the ship if....and here is the if...an officer of higher rank is also present on the ship. For example, if a post-captain (a "full" captain on The List) is present temporarily onboard a non-post ship (like a Sloop) commanded by a Commander, then the Commander is called Captain during that time.

The only place I have ever read of this custom happening has been in some histories of the Royal Navy in the Age of Sail, but again, it seems to have only been a courtesy to the commanding officer granted by a higher ranking officer temporarily on board - not an "official" rule. The RN had the division between captain and commander so rigidly written otherwise that certain ships only went to certain ranks.

Now I've heard from relatives who served in the US Navy during the 60's and 70's the saying that "there may be two captains, but only one skipper" on a ship, but have never found anything other than that.

 

[Sanjuro]

The RN had three ships called Ardent in the 20th Century; all were destroyed in action. This perhaps means it is not a lucky name for a ship- I prefer to think of it as a good name for a ship to send in harm's way, when the outcome is important.

 

[sabredog]

The RN had three ships called Ardent in the 20th Century; all were destroyed in action. This perhaps means it is not a lucky name for a ship- I prefer to think of it as a good name for a ship to send in harm's way, when the outcome is important.

I guess persistence is important sometimes, and I suppose somebody has to break the "tradition".

Of course there's never been another Victory or Arizona, either, after the events that made them famous so maybe that's what it'll take - some spectacular thing (read adventure) to seal the name.

Hey, I see here on the dubious but prolific Wikipedia that the RN had 11 ships named Ardent at some time or another, and all different classes. Including a cancelled submarine and a torpedo boat destroyer that was broken up just before WW1 (otherwise there'd have been two Ardent's at Jutland? Since they were different classes? Interesting).

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Another Question.

Can I foist any of these positions to the Imperial Marines?

Like can they double as the Ship's Gunnery section? Will there be any in the Signals section (which I think I can cut down looking at it again)?

Stuff like that.

Thanks again all.

Now, anyone got suggestions for names. :devil:

Laterness,
Magnus.

 

[sabredog]

If you want to go semi-traditional the Marines can be used for anything an unrated seaman could do. Haul on a line, supplement a gun team, etc., anything not too specialized. And the ones in the tops (as well as a few other places scattered around) would have small swivel guns to use, too. I don't think the whole guarding the hatches to keep sailors from running below during action translates to Traveller and meson guns, though.

But since in the Traveller universe chargen Marines can get ship gunnery as a skill then they can be (and IMTU are) used as gunners, or at least as gunners on smaller ships and non-starships. Navy in command, but some bootnecks can pull the triggers at least some of the time. It depends on how many are on the ship and all, but generally they can stand watches in the gunnery section if assigned there. They also make great gun bunnies for the missile and sand cannisters.

I also use them for damage control when not otherwise occupied killing bug-eyed boarders. That way skilled Naval personnel are free to do the really delicate tasks while the brute force weld-that-boilerplate-there stuff can be done by some Marines.

IMTU a colonial (non-Imperial Main Fleet) battlecruiser of 5000 tons will typically have 21 marines on board. 5 will man the triple missile turrets, 6 will be assigned to damage control, and the rest stand by in action as a flying column for whatever needs doing.

Now a much larger (500kt) Imperial Main Fleet carrier will have many more marines and none of them will man anything, but some will form damage control parties during action. However many may be on board at the time, that is, since they are there to act as a planetary assault force and most will be off assaulting someone.

So a lot depends on if you are putting marines on a "frigate" or "ship of the line". I think that since crew is at a premium on a smaller ship then doubling up in Signals (Commo, FO skills) and Gunnery would be perfect for Marines, but on a really big ship probably less so.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Here are some new ideas, check please?

Going with Major B's suggestion of PSD with an O1 CO, I figure the rest of the section would be an Sergeant or Staff Sergeant, with the SGT backed up by a Corporal and the rest being Privates.

Also a Marine or two can double as Driver of the Diplomatic Grav Limo.

So far we can have Marines doubling as Signals/Intel, Driver, Gunner, Damage Control. *nods approvingly* Yep, nice way to thin out the crew requirements. Thanks.

Now as was also pointed out, I need some Nobs and Middies, I figure either some low level Nobles for Junior Officers (both Navy and the Marine Officer) and one or two Midshipmen as their seconds? (Though looking at the way things work CharGen wise, I suppose most of the "Noble Titles don't really count when you are in the Navy, The Old Man is still the Skipper, Your Lordship." None the less, part of their duty as Nobles and Officers is school the young gentlemen on how to be correct in manner, thought and deed, or "the proper way things are done".)

Plus having Nobles around with their Career Skills they can often double as the Legal Officer, Liaison Officer and other Admin Skills. Speaking of what is the proper Navy term for the Department/Division that handles Logistics?

Comments?

EDIT:Also took quite a few other suggestions, just haven't hashed them out quite as much thanks to the Middies and Marines were added to the mix.

 

[sabredog]

Other than terms like The Yard, Chandlery, the term would still be Logistics and/or Supply and then broken up into various departments for acquisition, distribution and such. On a old Age o' Sail ship it would be the Purser who handled supply purchase, distribution, and keep the books for such.

As for the Middies, you have it as I do it: the Middies act as junior to the divisional officers and even though some of them might actually be of higher noble rank than the Lt or Cmdr above them they are in His Majesty's Navy now and can be made to kiss the gunner's daughter should they misbehave until they pas their exams and are elevated to the higher ranks.

Title's don't mean jack in the chain of command on the ship they are assigned - except for the influence they provide for getting onto a ship as a commissioned officer in the first place...not to mention for later promotions once they get off - with a lot of weight placed on the captain's recommendations when they go before the Board. Of course this also lays open for the possibilities of the captain gaining influence of his own by helping to promote certain young gentlemen (or at least doing his best to ensure they learn their trade well) with good recommendations. It can work in reverse, too, with some noble officers and/or their families if junior turns out to be a bad apple and they hold it against the captain through his career.

Makes for some potentially interesting role-play, though.

Yeah, the gunroom ought to have at least one Middie per division (Command, Engineering, Gunnery), plus another one for the captain to use on the bridge as a general gofer. That would give you one for each watch to assist the officer of the deck if you run 6 hour watches. For training they should rotate their assigned divisions through the cruise.

Again, though, it can depend on the size of the ship, but I'm going on the size of yours and the need to maximize crew space. BTW: when I use HG as a design system I take these guys out of the "Service" section of the crew rules; I figure the troops can wash their own clothes and rotate cooks if needs be.

 

[Icosahedron]

As for the Middies, you have it as I do it: the Middies act as junior to the divisional officers and even though some of them might actually be of higher noble rank than the Lt or Cmdr above them they are in His Majesty's Navy now and can be made to kiss the gunner's daughter should they misbehave until they pas their exams and are elevated to the higher ranks.

Of course, since they are virtually guaranteed that promotion, it would be a very brave or very foolish officer who gave them more than a token admonishment...

 

[sabredog]

Of course, since they are virtually guaranteed that promotion, it would be a very brave or very foolish officer who gave them more than a token admonishment...

Yes and no...that "guaranteed" promotion might not come off if the guy's family lacks enough influence - plenty of noble families out there competing for limited chances at this sort of thing. Just like in the bad old days of the RN families had to petition to have their youngsters be taken on board - and depending on the reputation of the captain the competition might be steep.

Yeah, you might torpedo your career if you failed some spoiled brat from an influential family, but historically the RN and how it handled nobility in the ranks was far different from the Army's way- no purchasing of commissions, His Majesty's ships were not trusted to someone just because they had a title but were otherwise a blockhead of a seaman, everyone had to pull their weight and present their papers to be judged fairly by the Promotions Board.

After all, unlike the Army the enemy tended to snipe officers on the decks (surprisingly small decks, too) of ships and in close quarter fighting even a 12 year old middie might have to go hand to hand against boarders or direct a gun division that's blasting away at another ship only a few yards away. So ineptitude wasn't tolerated for the sake of titles - a captain would just find a way (at worst) to foist the young fool onto someone else.

Now yes, to leap that vast chasm from Commander to Post-Captain it helped to have influence, but nobility was not required to do it...it mainly helped with assignments to staff and to get you closer to some plum job that would help you enter the peerage and influence policy. For the most part promotions were otherwise based on merit, but there will always be that behind the scenes politicking going on and that's mainly what I was referring to as ripe for role-playing.

In any case a lot depends on how much weight you want nobility to have in your game. Me, I run it just like I said and as a result the Navy may be the preferred glamour service for the nobility but you can't buy your way into it. If you want that sort of thing you can do it with the Marines or one of the colonial forces, but His Majesty isn't going to trust some noble fop with too much money and not enough sense to command a ship. Better to just let him pull a term or two as a lower officer so the family can brag about junior being in the Navy and then send him gently on his way to the rest of his "noble career" before he gets anyone seriously hurt.

It still happens once in a while, though, but that adds to background color and interesting characters for the players to run into, like the Count I have currently flying around in this trade war with his own 300 ton privateer. The guy has honorary titles, commands a Colonial Guard unit of hussars, but since he's getting on in years and has yet to see real action he wants to get into some so he can uphold the family tradition before he's too old.

He's got a little Four Feathers meets Lord Cardigan thing going on but he's lots of fun for the players to run into. They taunt him mercilessly since they've defeated him twice already, but it only makes him more determined. I mean it's gotten so bad that some of the local casinos on the world they most often are likely to run into each other near or on have started setting odds on the winner of the next round.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Mister Sabredog...

I dislike what you are insinuating.

I will have you know I spent half a Term just getting to Capital from Regina, deadheading on whatever ship might have a berth. No taking the sleek Yacht for you.

Then there's all the paperwork, blah, blah, woof, woof. Not as glamourous as one would think.

"So you Uncle, the Count got you a Staff position on Capital. *sneers* Must be nice."

Yeah, right.

Just went and bought a copy of Master and Commander. *coughs* It is Research you know, a legitimate expense.

 

[sabredog]

I protest....the uniforms in the Navy are so much prettier than in the Marines. More gold braid, more leeway allowed for tailoring, the boots stay polished longer and shinier since there's none of that rooting around in the dirt like those Marines do... and there's a girl (or suitable analogue) in every port! And the hats are more dashing.

'sides, if you do get a cushy staff position it means you're on the fast track to flag rank without having to spend all those dreary weeks in jumpspace, or picket duty on those boring frontiers where one can't get so much as a decent glass of wine, let alone decent conversation. It's all chase that pirate, search yet another Free Trader for contraband; all colonists and no Zho. In staff on Capital you get to meet all the really important people and go to all the best parties.

Good choice on the book BTW: you'll have plenty of material for adding color and customs to your campaign.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not book yet.

Getting the movie, Far Side of the World, I have the book Master and Commander, but am tired, long and productive and social week so far.

Plus now with new card table, might finally get to finish that first game of Imperium, plus now that I have the Collected JTAS I have optional rules too.

So yeah, movie then bed, then some Table Top Traveller with a friend, who digs board games, so minis and range bands it is.

I am getting a lot out of this thread. Is good.

Also Sir some of us leave the Navy with our Connections. Rank, Muster Out, etc., then go on to fulfill Our Noble Duties to HIM and Imperium. Thus earning things like a shiny new Yacht. TAS Membership, neat stuff that lets a Noble get stuff done. "Right here and right now, and yes Admiral I do understand the scope of what we are facing, I was after all a Space Cadet, an University of Regina Graduate, and of course there after, a member of His Imperial Majesty's Space Navy, so please..."

well,
Laterness,
Mags.

 

[sabredog]

Dang, I wish I had players who appreciated the minis and range band thing more than the "cinematic" method. I love all the crunchy stuff but it is a cross I must bear or no gaming at all.

The movie's good, but it is best appreciated as a stand-alone story that has characters named after the ones in the books but the similarity ends there. Russel Crowe is a good actor but he is no Jack Aubrey as depicted in the books (he's too short, lacks Aubrey's massive girth and strength, and runs his ship like its a privateer rather) , and the guy playing Maturin does the character an injustice in his depiction of the surgeon/secret agent as described in the books. And finally, the behavior of the crew is more like that of Surprise when Maturin buys it as a privateer with a volunteer crew than the times when she was an RN man of war - a point that is remarked on in the books as being an amazing difference. While she was a "happy" ship there would never have been the snowball fights or familiarity of the crew towards the captain as depicted in the movie during the times she was in the RN. But it did run that way when she as a private warship.

But it's still a cracking good movie and I own it myself. A better movie might be (and it shows the difficulties that might come into play when noble influence is on the wrong side in the command crew) Damn the Defiant. It would be good source material.

And yes, yes noblesse oblige seems alive and well in the majority of the Imperium's families in your game and that's not such a bad thing, but IMTU the OTU doesn't exist and the Terran Empire resembles Poul Anderson's future history of a crumbling and old empire with a few staving off the Long Night while majority of nobility are more concerned with the status quo, parties, and who is the most fashionable that day.

The current emperor sees the need for change but has no fit heir for it while his power is also constrained by early personal mistakes now exploited by some powerful families for their own gains. And the farther away from the core you get the more you see the alien empires and neo-barbarians nibbling at the edges.

Hence my poking fun at the "plungers" among the nobility who view the military as either a grand game (Cardigan, Lucan) or stepping stone to get out of the way quickly rather than how it was viewed by those such as Nelson, Wellington, and similar lesser well-known historical figures.

 

[Icosahedron]

So yeah, movie then bed, then some Table Top Traveller with a friend, ...

Traveller in bed with a friend? Maybe I don't want to know any more...

 

[BlackBat242]

Well it IS a... role-playing game"...

"I'll be the infamous (but dashing & romantic) Corsair, and you'll be the helpless High Passage Traveller (who has a "thing" for rogues) on the ship I've just taken..."

:smirk:

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

To clear up some questions.

It seems folks think this is a Mission sent by Strephon, Imperium Rex.

That is not true. This is a private mission, by the current (on paper anyway, sorta...) Archduke of the Far Marches and Duke of Chronor.

See back in the day the original holder of these titles lost the actual fiefs back in the Frontier War as it first known since the second was still to come.

However, since the situation was all sorts of hinky back at that time, what with His Imperial Majesty Olav the First heading to Capital to Claim the Throne, he needed someone to hold the line back home and he sure didn't want the Zhodani coming in behind him and destroying everything he had set up, so he writes an nice Warrant (on Imperial Navy stationary) authorizing hault-Daarnulud to do all sorts of Agent of the Crown stuff, you know how Warrants are nice and loose.

So, our hero of the time, Felix if I remember correctly negotiates a nice solid agreement with the Zhodani, verified by various psionic and other methods (remember the 1FW happened before the Suppressions). Since the truth of the matter is that out in the Marches of the 600s it is actually a much looser place (being the border zone of two powerful empires, the locals really get along too well for either empire to feel comfortable with) it was pretty much the locals making some agreements to not mess with each other and go back to doing what they had been doing without paper work before the war.

The nasty truth of the matter is the hault-Daarnuluds have been doing a lot of interesting business on and across the border for while now.

So, just wondering, does that help flesh things out?

(I wonder if any of the players are reading this? If so note that the Referee will take this as having done research on the Count.)

 

[Whipsnade]

If this was a universal problem, it would be a universal custom. But evidently it is not.

Hans,

It's neither a problem nor a custom, and I'd hazard a guess that Sanjuro is simply telling sea stories.

I never ran into it, I know of no one who ever ran into it, and - most damningly - there are the official answers Chris Thrash got when he looked into it. Remember that thread at JTAS?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Oh, do tell...

Hans,

It's neither a problem nor a custom, and I'd hazard a guess that Sanjuro is simply telling sea stories.

I never ran into it, I know of no one who ever ran into it, and - most damningly - there are the official answers Chris Thrash got when he looked into it. Remember that thread at JTAS?


Regards,
Bill

No really what happened? I mean in summary, please?

 

[Whipsnade]

No really what happened? I mean in summary, please?

Magnus,

The topic had arisen at JTAS with the Usual Suspects, most of whom have never served in any branch of any nation's armed forces let alone a navy, bleating on about the courtesy promotion to major which they'd read about in fiction.

Chris Thrash was an officer serving in the US Army at the time and realized he had access to the perfect source with which to settle the question: The United States' Department of Defense Protocol Office in the Pentagon.

Chris made a few phone calls and eventually spoke with someone in the protocol office who was intrigued by the question. After researching the question, the answer was...

... They'd never heard of it in real life.

They'd read about the practice in fictional accounts like Heinlein and the Napoleonic era Royal Navy Bolitho novels, but they couldn't find any instance of it actually being used in US forces of any period or in the forces of nations the US had records for. The closest hit was the case of a fellow on Spruance's staff in WW2 who was referred to by a higher rank by his fellow staffers for various reasons.

The protocol office said there were a few apocryphal accounts of the practice sometimes occurring on some RN vessels during the Napoleonic period, but those accounts could only be found in memoirs written well after the fact and each case occurred at the pleasure of the commanding officer and never lasted for long.

Simply put, suggesting the practice is anywhere near commonplace is bullshit and falls into the realm of sea stories. Heinlein most likely knew about the few apocryphal instances thanks to his time at Annapolis and included the practice in Starship Troopers for the same reasons he suggested doors in sci-fi should dilate; because it adds to the "Not In Kansas Anymore" feeling.


Regards,
Bill