CT Only: CT Book 2 Free Trader Crew

[rancke]

Thanks for the help and I'll try not to impose on the forums again.

Darn it, Tom, we're supposed to be friends here. Friends can annoy each other without causing a big fuss. If you annoy anyone, they can ignore you or they can talk to you about it, but they shouldn't give vague hints and you should cut them some slack even if they do. Now, the two of you, I suggest you do the Internet equivalent of kissing and making up.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Don't be daft, keep asking your questions.

I'll bet there are lots of people who read these question and answer sessions of your and learn something.

 

[aramis]

Implies? That table has been out for nearly 40 years now. Do you know anyone who interpreted the table in that manner? Or actually ran a game in that manner?

Yes. About 20 people. Including myself. Most of whom ran Traveller games in Anchorage in the 80's.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Hans,

Darn it, Tom, we're supposed to be friends here. Friends can annoy each other without causing a big fuss. If you annoy anyone, they can ignore you or they can talk to you about it, but they shouldn't give vague hints and you should cut them some slack even if they do. Now, the two of you, I suggest you do the Internet equivalent of kissing and making up.


Hans

Unfortunately, when someone doesn't clearly say something in fear of being banned from the forum the way I see it has gone past the stage of annoying each other.

The major issue is that I have not been able to express why I am confused by the wording of the steward crew rule. Further, all that replies still have not lit the light bulb of understanding.

Of late I seem to be pushing questions on rules way past tolerance of a lot of the forum members, which appears to go beyond annoying.

Orr made a comment that I don't feel was off the mark so there is nothing that needs kissing and making up.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Mike Wightman,

Don't be daft, keep asking your questions.

I'll bet there are lots of people who read these question and answer sessions of your and learn something.

To late, I have been a bit daft ever since I believed I could easily un-volunteer from submarine service.

 

[Orr]

Yes. About 20 people. Including myself. Most of whom ran Traveller games in Anchorage in the 80's.

So all those players never had the opportunity to decide whether the risk of hiring a NPC steward for one jump was worth signing aboard prospective high passengers? It's sad you all missed out on that role-playing opportunity just so you could do the math "correctly".

You can look at the text associated with the passenger table as a mathematical formula or you can look at the text as a gaming aid. Assuming the text is nothing but a formula is classic stovepipe thinking, you're examining the text without also acknowledging the fact it's also part of a greater whole. The table isn't meant to be examined in isolation.

The passenger table exists to help create role-playing opportunities because Traveller is a role-playing game. The passenger table is more than a group of equations because Traveller itself is more than a group of equations.

Yes, you can reduce quite a bit of Traveller to various formulae in various cells in a spreadsheet. The actual game begins, however, when you take the numbers those formulae create and do something with them.

 

[Orr]

I doubt that you will get banned if you say something to the effect that I'm a pig-headed idiot who should stop asking obvious questions.

I'm wasn't implying you're a pig-headed idiot, because you're not a pig-headed idiot. Also, while you're asking questions whose answers are obvious to us, you're not asking questions whose answers are obvious to you.

I strongly suspect your way of thinking makes it harder for you to comprehend our answers, harder but not impossible.

In this and your other threads I've reviewed, you exhibit an overly literal, "stovepipe" type of thinking and comprehension which suggests to me that a certain syndrome may be at work. In the past I have volunteered to work with people who think in much the same manner you seem to think and they all had that certain syndrome to varying degrees. One of the reasons I volunteered to work with those people was that a younger relative of mine has the syndrome.

Recently here at COTI, I was callous enough to mention the same syndrome with regards to another member and quite correctly received a warning from the mods. That's why my reply to Aramis was worded in the manner it was.

I'll be leaving this thread because I've already made enough of an ass of myself. Making an ass of myself is something I happen to be good at, but it isn't something I need to "share" with others! :rofl:

I hope you get the answers you need.

 

[atpollard]

I ask again
Can someone please provide the page number in CT Book 2 that clearly states that a dedicated steward is required to carry one or more high passengers.

LBB2, Pg 4
High Passage - The best method of travel is called high passage, which involves first class accommodations and cuisine. High passengers have the services of the ship's steward, entertainment and complete attention to their comfort. There is a baggage allowance of up to 1,000 kilograms. High passage costs Cr10,000.

The definition of what High Passage is (on page 4) states that the High Passenger has "the services of the ship's steward".

LBB2, Pg 4
Middle Passage - In order for starships to fill their staterooms with passengers, middle passage is offered on a standby basis, in the event that not enough high passages are sold. While middle passengers occupy staterooms normally similar to those occupied by high passengers, they do not receive the service or entertainment accorded the higher paying passengers.

If there is no ship's steward, then the passenger cannot have their services ... it is not a High Passage, it is a Middle Passage by the very definition of High and Middle passage.
Does that help?

 

[rancke]

The definition of what High Passage is (on page 4) states that the High Passenger has "the services of the ship's steward".

If there is no ship's steward, then the passenger cannot have their services ... it is not a High Passage, it is a Middle Passage by the very definition of High and Middle passage.

Does that help?

Not really. It reiterates a point that I've already addressed, namely that High Passage can be defined in more than one way. One definition is the one you mention. Another is that a High Passage is one that costs you Cr10,000 (To a free trader crew that's the definition that really matters). A third definition is that a High Passage is one that allows you to bump a Mid passenger. A fourth is that it's one where you get a 1dT baggage allotment.

As long as the situation fits all definitions, there's no problem. But when there are contradictions, the vanilla rules prove inadequate. Like, for example, the rich guy who wants passage on the next ship that leaves, but it's all booked up with Mid passengers (except there's no steward at all, so it's not even mid passage :devil.

So the rich guy whips out a High Passage voucher and bumps another passenger. Is he a high passenger? He isn't getting high passage service, but he paid with a High Passage.

Meanwhile, the bumpee pays the captain an extra Cr2000 and bumps another passenger. Is he a high passenger? He paid with a Mid Passage and Cr2000 in cash, so presumably not -- except that the rules refer to him as a high passenger (I think -- I could be misremembering).


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Orr,

At this point I am dealing with determining a ship's crew that has the potential to carry high, middle, low, and working passages per CT Book 2.

My recreation of the Far Trader matches everything except, much to my surprise and delight, the required crew. Usually the MCr is what doesn't match.

So all those players never had the opportunity to decide whether the risk of hiring a NPC steward for one jump was worth signing aboard prospective high passengers? It's sad you all missed out on that role-playing opportunity just so you could do the math "correctly".

You can look at the text associated with the passenger table as a mathematical formula or you can look at the text as a gaming aid. Assuming the text is nothing but a formula is classic stovepipe thinking, you're examining the text without also acknowledging the fact it's also part of a greater whole. The table isn't meant to be examined in isolation.

The passenger table exists to help create role-playing opportunities because Traveller is a role-playing game. The passenger table is more than a group of equations because Traveller itself is more than a group of equations.

Yes, you can reduce quite a bit of Traveller to various formulae in various cells in a spreadsheet. The actual game begins, however, when you take the numbers those formulae create and do something with them.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[snrdg082102]

Drat, I keep forgetting to check for additional posts.

I'm wasn't implying you're a pig-headed idiot, because you're not a pig-headed idiot. Also, while you're asking questions whose answers are obvious to us, you're not asking questions whose answers are obvious to you.

I think there are a number of people, on and off the forum, who do think I am a pig headed idiot. Which is probably true from a certain point of view.

I strongly suspect your way of thinking makes it harder for you to comprehend our answers, harder but not impossible.

In this and your other threads I've reviewed, you exhibit an overly literal, "stovepipe" type of thinking and comprehension which suggests to me that a certain syndrome may be at work. In the past I have volunteered to work with people who think in much the same manner you seem to think and they all had that certain syndrome to varying degrees. One of the reasons I volunteered to work with those people was that a younger relative of mine has the syndrome.

Recently here at COTI, I was callous enough to mention the same syndrome with regards to another member and quite correctly received a warning from the mods. That's why my reply to Aramis was worded in the manner it was.

I'll send you a PM to get the information you have, which will probably help me figure out what is sending me off to left field so often.

I'll be leaving this thread because I've already made enough of an ass of myself. Making an ass of myself is something I happen to be good at, but it isn't something I need to "share" with others! :rofl:

I hope you get the answers you need.

First item you have not, in my opinion, made any sort of ass of yourself. I failed to accurately translate your comments and took a wrong turn.

Next, please continue to make replies to this topic and any others I post. I do benefit and appreciate all the help I receive, even when I still haven't had the light bulb turn on.

 

[atpollard]

Now I understand, snrdg082102's problem isn't really with the rules, it is with the grognards.
[spoken in love as one pedantic old fart to another]

When we are parsing the printed definition of High and Middle passage to crush it under potential 'what ifs', it is no longer a discussion about what the rules are, is it?

In gun combat, the game mechanics present two options ... the character receives damage or the character does not receive damage.
One could certainly offer a series of what ifs ...
What if the bullet breaks the skin, but leaves only a minor scratch?
What if the bullet passes completely through but misses all vital organs?
What if the bullet shatters a femur?
... but the rules present only two alternatives: take damage, do not take damage.

Similarly, there are an almost infinite variety of role playing what ifs for passengers, but the rules list only four types of passage and the 'passenger table' rolls for the presence of only three possibilities: High Passage, Middle Passage and Low Passage. Each of those 'Passages' are defined, and I would expect that anyone travelling by high passage would have everything defined as part of a High Passage available to them.

So in the case of someone travelling middle passage who upgrades to high passage to bump another passenger, I would expect his high passage to include all of the things that every other high passage includes.

When you move beyond the rules as written scenarios into special role-playing circumstances, then that is precisely why the Referee is there ... to make an 'in my game' decision. Looking for a rule that covers everything imaginable is an unrealistic expectation.

The definition of High Passage includes steward services. A Middle Passage passenger who upgrades to High Passage, (IMO) gains the services of a steward and the extra baggage allowance and the better cuisine ... all of the things listed in the definition of high passage.

YMMV.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning all,

I want to thank everyone who has been trying to help me out with the steward crew requirement, every though I did not ask the right at the start of the thread.

The issue I am having, besides being too literal and slow to catch on, is matching the steward crew requirement using my CT Book 2 Design and Construction spreadsheet.

Of course my designs are usually military or para-military ones using CT Book 5 which avoids the need for stewards.

Until I began testing my revamped CT Book 2 design and construction spreadsheet and ran into the steward as being part of the required crew my formula has been number of stewards = round(number of high passengers/8,0).

With the new found knowledge, still fuzzy on comprehension though, can anyone suggest how I might implement this into a spreadsheet formula?

Off the top of my rounded and dented head I'm thinking about adding something like:

Option: Commercial hull capable of carrying passengers: Yes or No

If equals Yes and round(number of high passengers/8,0) less than one then steward = 1 else round(number of high passengers/8,0).

 

[rancke]

Similarly, there are an almost infinite variety of role playing what ifs for passengers, but the rules list only four types of passage and the 'passenger table' rolls for the presence of only three possibilities: High Passage, Middle Passage and Low Passage. Each of those 'Passages' are defined, and I would expect that anyone travelling by high passage would have everything defined as part of a High Passage available to them.

Yes, you're right about what the rules says. But I went further than that and talked about whether what the rules say is enough to cover quite ordinary roleplaying situations. Which, as you have probably gathered by now, I don't think. Yes, according to the rules you need a steward to get high passengers. But is that realisitic? Not in my opinion. Are those rules adequate? Not in my opinion.

So in the case of someone travelling middle passage who upgrades to high passage to bump another passenger, I would expect his high passage to include all of the things that every other high passage includes.

Bottom line here: The ref rolls nine passengers for eight staterooms. The referee decides to let the ninth passenger offer the captain Cr2000 extra to bump one of the other passengers and let him aboard instead. Is the captain unable to accept such a bribe because he doesn't have a steward?

When you move beyond the rules as written scenarios into special role-playing circumstances, then that is precisely why the Referee is there ... to make an 'in my game' decision. Looking for a rule that covers everything imaginable is an unrealistic expectation.

I'd be satisfied with rules that covered the basics. Free traders with inadequate service picking up passengers in places where there are no alternatives seems pretty basic to me.

The definition of High Passage includes steward services.

But which High Passage is the definition defining? The piece of plastic that the passenger hands to the captain who can cash it for Cr10,000? The piece of plastic for a Mid Passage plus Cr2000 in cash? Or the actual traveling experience?

A Middle Passage passenger who upgrades to High Passage, (IMO) gains the services of a steward and the extra baggage allowance and the better cuisine ... all of the things listed in the definition of high passage.

What if there is no steward and no extra space in the cargo hull? Does that make the passenger unable to bribe the captain to let him on board?


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello atpollard and Hans,

I want to that you both, as well as everyone who have put there efforts in trying to get me to understand the steward rules in spite of my one track mode of thinking.

Obviously one of the reasons I have been a player and not a referee is my fuzzy comprehension of the rules.

Basically by the rules any commercial ship that has the potential to carry passengers would have a crew member that has a skill of a steward in order to transport any potential high passenger to the a port of call along the ship's route of travel.

Am I in the ball park now and how would I translate this to a formula that would show the steward as part of the crew?

 

[aramis]

Morning Orr,

At this point I am dealing with determining a ship's crew that has the potential to carry high, middle, low, and working passages per CT Book 2.

My recreation of the Far Trader matches everything except, much to my surprise and delight, the required crew. Usually the MCr is what doesn't match.



Thanks for the reply.

I forget which, but either the navigator or the medic is not required on a 200 ton hull; the other one is. One's on ships of 200 or more, and the other is on ships more than 200 tons (so, given that hulls are in 1 ton units, 201+).

 

[atpollard]

Bottom line here: The ref rolls nine passengers for eight staterooms. The referee decides to let the ninth passenger offer the captain Cr2000 extra to bump one of the other passengers and let him aboard instead. Is the captain unable to accept such a bribe because he doesn't have a steward?

Strictly how I would handle it ...
If the captain does have a steward, then the passenger is bumped from a traditional Middle Passage to a traditional High Passage with all the trimmings (no mystery here).

If the ship has no steward, it cannot offer or provide a High Passage (per the definition of High Passage) so all passengers are travelling Middle Passage with all of the trimmings of Middle Passage.

Now for the ninth potential passenger ... he can offer the captain an extra 500 credits and the captain can then decide to bump another passenger and accept this passenger for an 8500 credit Middle Passage. Perhaps 7 of the eight possible Middle Passages have already boarded and are heavily armed and politically connected, so they are unbumpable. The remaining two potential passengers are free (IMTU) to engage in a bidding war for the last stateroom that ends in the ninth passenger paying 12,000 credits for the stateroom ... it is still a Middle Passage.

Legally (IMTU) you can not advertise any passage as a High Passage that fails to meet all of the criteria for a High Passage. You can charge whatever the market will bear for the passage, although the standard rates are the typical 'fair market price'.

But which High Passage is the definition defining? The piece of plastic that the passenger hands to the captain who can cash it for Cr10,000? The piece of plastic for a Mid Passage plus Cr2000 in cash? Or the actual traveling experience?

As an aside, I hear lots of talk about plastic vouchers for High and Middle passage. I have no problem with the concept, but can you (or anyone else) point to a specific reference to plastic vouchers? I simply can not remember ever seeing them in the rules, but there is so much stuff hidden in adventures and alien books that I could easily have missed it.

 

[atpollard]

Basically by the rules any commercial ship that has the potential to carry passengers would have a crew member that has a skill of a steward in order to transport any potential high passenger to the a port of call along the ship's route of travel.

Just a small point, if you read the description of Steward skill, you will find that the Steward required to have High Passengers is a position on the crew, but does not actually require the character/NPC to have steward skill. Steward skill will make you better at the job, but anyone can actually fill the position. (all strictly per Classic Traveller)

 

[aramis]

TTB, p.29

Passages: The skills and benefits table includes passages,
or tickets, for travel. They are acquired in blank, and
represent one passage, or trip, between one world and
the next world visited by the starship. They are available in
three forms: high passage, middle passage, and low passage.
Passages may be retained and used as needed, or they may
be cashed in at 90% of their face value​

The "acquired in blank" implies a physical token.

IMTU...

they have been a multipart form, of plastic, roughly 20 x 7.5 cm. One's the LS recharge/restock voucher, one's the passenger receipt, one's the ship's receipt, one's the embarking station receipt, one's the disembarking station receipt, and one's the cashout voucher. If the 4 that matter don't all match, they put a fraud notice out on the ship, and the captain has to reimburse the IMoT for the full face value.

So, you agree to a passage on ship X, and go before a boarding agent at the port. You and the ship's rep sign the coupon and fill in the destinations, and the gate agent witnesses. (At smaller ports, he may be the mail scout, or even a part-timer.) He gets the boarding coupon. He sends X-mail to the far end.
The captain gets all but the passenger receipt and the boarding receipt; the passenger gets that and whatever boarding pass the skipper issues.

The skipper then goes to the chandlery, shows the signed off deck to the chandler, and gets one set of food and LS at no cash price. The Chandler gets the fuel ticket, and gets paid by going to the boarding agent.

The skipper then either presents one or more passage coupons for payment of fuel to the collier, or pays cash for fuel. Used ones have the cashout signed over; They get paid to the collier. The rest get a departure note.

Upon arrival, the captain presents the passenger and the coupon to the boarding agent at the destination. The passenger has had to sign that they arrived, that the passage conditions were met (single occupancy, proper access to food, water, and freshers; if high passage, access to a steward with basic laundry and food preparation, as well as entertainment, and at least 30 minutes per day of personal access to the steward.
The agent signs it, takes his copy, and either receives and pays the cashout, or sends the crewman to the bank for the cashout redemption. Either way, he notifies via Xmail the coupons received so as to close out the account.

If the passenger disputes the ticket conditions having been met, both passenger and ship are detained until IMoT and/or the IN and/or IISS have "resolved the situation" - the general rule is that if it was negligence or there is no recording, there is no payment, and the skipper loses his commercial rating (and can't cash passages except at 90%).
If it was lack of proper steward, the captain is permitted to offer a rebate of the difference - if the passenger accepts, the skipper pays 110% of the difference, the passenger gets his 100%, and the ship's transponder is noted as having a steward infraction.

IMTU, there's also a box for passenger accepts double occupancy - but that's a T20ism. (One you can blame me for.)

If you don't have a steward, the boarding agent won't sign off on the High Passage coupon unless the skipper pays the difference ahead of time.

If you bump someone, the boarding agent gets to recover and reissue them a new passage.

All the reports include the passage type, the ship classification and registry, and the name of the steward (if any) and captain. Algorithms in the IISS check these passage notices for overloads and patterns of fraud. It may be slow to grind, but it eventually collates at the sector level way station, and ships over capacity get major trouble.
​

 

[atpollard]

TTB, p.29

Passages: The skills and benefits table includes passages, or tickets, for travel. They are acquired in blank, and represent one passage, or trip, between one world and the next world visited by the starship. They are available in three forms: high passage, middle passage, and low passage. Passages may be retained and used as needed, or they may be cashed in at 90% of their face value​

The "acquired in blank" implies a physical token.

Thanks. That does sound like a physical object that is redeemed for a future passage. My search-foo failed me when looking for the word 'voucher'.

Does anyone else find 'acquired in blank' to be a somewhat confusing phrase?