CT Combat: STUN

[Supplement Four]

Here's another little rule I've implemented in my game over the last several months that is working quite well. My players really like it. Other GMs may be interested in it as it allows for frantic gun play episodes during your campaign while still keeping Classic Traveller combat very deadly--the other foot planted squarely in "Traveller Reality", so to speak.

This rule is an extension of my enhanced Classic Traveller combat rules that can be found here in a thread.

If you want to peruse those rules, click on the link (no need to regurgitate it all here), but the basics of this stun rule are....

...that a single stat being reduced to 0 in combat does not necessarily mean that the character is knocked unconscious for 10 minutes.

Under official CT rules, damage without any stat reduced to 0, and damage that reduces a single stat to 0, are both Minor Wounds. The difference is that, with a single stat reduced to 0, the character with the minor wound is also knocked unconscious.

The really serious wounds with CT characters start when two stats are reduced to zero. Minor Wounds (cuts, abrasions, light burns, bruises, fatigue, etc) = damage, and damage w/ 1 stat-0. Serious Wounds (gunshots, deep stabs, broken bones, or worse) = damage w/ at least 2 stat-0.

My questions was: Where does a "stun" come into play? Where is it that a character can be momentarily dazed (and maybe even knocked down) for a mere combat round but then able to regain his wits and continue the fight?

Classic Traveller has no such animal. So, I put one in there. And, as I said above, it's been a real hit with my group--I thought I'd share here.




=================================================
Classic Traveller Stun Rule


When one stat is reduced to 0, the damaged character may make a 2D END check. If successful, the character is stunned for 1 round, able to function normally after that penalty, and the stat reduced to 0 is raised to 1. If the check fails, then the character falls unconscious for 3D minutes (average of 10 minutes).

STUN CHECK = 2D for END or less








-------------------------------------------------
Example

Andy James 78A469

Andy is wounded in combat. His physical stats are reduced to 546 before he takes additional damage from a second enemy, making his stats 305.

Andy makes a 2D END check, rolling 2D for 5 or less. If Andy failes this check, he has been knocked unconscious for 3D minutes.

But, if Andy makes the check, he will loose his next turn but be able to act normally thereafter with his physical stats at 315.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's another little rule I've implemented in my game over the last several months that is working quite well. My players really like it. Other GMs may be interested in it as it allows for frantic gun play episodes during your campaign while still keeping Classic Traveller combat very deadly--the other foot planted squarely in "Traveller Reality", so to speak.

This rule is an extension of my enhanced Classic Traveller combat rules that can be found here in a thread.

If you want to peruse those rules, click on the link (no need to regurgitate it all here), but the basics of this stun rule are....

...that a single stat being reduced to 0 in combat does not necessarily mean that the character is knocked unconscious for 10 minutes.

Under official CT rules, damage without any stat reduced to 0, and damage that reduces a single stat to 0, are both Minor Wounds. The difference is that, with a single stat reduced to 0, the character with the minor wound is also knocked unconscious.

The really serious wounds with CT characters start when two stats are reduced to zero. Minor Wounds (cuts, abrasions, light burns, bruises, fatigue, etc) = damage, and damage w/ 1 stat-0. Serious Wounds (gunshots, deep stabs, broken bones, or worse) = damage w/ at least 2 stat-0.

My questions was: Where does a "stun" come into play? Where is it that a character can be momentarily dazed (and maybe even knocked down) for a mere combat round but then able to regain his wits and continue the fight?

Classic Traveller has no such animal. So, I put one in there. And, as I said above, it's been a real hit with my group--I thought I'd share here.




=================================================
Classic Traveller Stun Rule


When one stat is reduced to 0, the damaged character may make a 2D END check. If successful, the character is stunned for 1 round, able to function normally after that penalty, and the stat reduced to 0 is raised to 1. If the check fails, then the character falls unconscious for 3D minutes (average of 10 minutes).

STUN CHECK = 2D for END or less








-------------------------------------------------
Example

Andy James 78A469

Andy is wounded in combat. His physical stats are reduced to 546 before he takes additional damage from a second enemy, making his stats 305.

Andy makes a 2D END check, rolling 2D for 5 or less. If Andy failes this check, he has been knocked unconscious for 3D minutes.

But, if Andy makes the check, he will loose his next turn but be able to act normally thereafter with his physical stats at 315.

 

[mike wightman]

Emm, something similar already suggested...

except if you make the End roll the stat should be raised back to half of the original value , not just 1

 

[mike wightman]

Emm, something similar already suggested...

except if you make the End roll the stat should be raised back to half of the original value , not just 1

 

[mike wightman]

In fact, here is the original thread, where you first mooted the idea:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=44;t=000446

 

[mike wightman]

In fact, here is the original thread, where you first mooted the idea:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=44;t=000446

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Emm, something similar already suggested...

Ooops! I shoulda looked. I couldn't remember if I had posted that one or not. I guess I had.

I was speaking to one of my players earlier today, and he was telling me how well that rule had worked out in our game since I started using it a few months ago.

I made a mental note to post it to the forum...and I guess I already did that way back when I first designed it!

except if you make the End roll the stat should be raised back to half of the original value , not just 1

We've been raising the stat to 1, not half. I guess it depends on how deadly you want the game to be.

If I mentioned bringing it to half, I must have dropped that somewhere along the line.

Going to 1, I've found, puts the stunned character on the extreme defensive--he may be stunned again, but it gets less and less likely that he'll make the END check.

I mean, if you went to half, a character could withstand several stuns. In a boxing match, once a boxer gets dazed like that, it's usually not a good sign at all. He's probably going to loose the fight.

Going to 1 keeps that reality when using this rule.

A GM who wanted more damage resistant characters, though, could easily go to half and have his PC able to withstand many more stuns that what I'm allowing in my game.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Emm, something similar already suggested...

Ooops! I shoulda looked. I couldn't remember if I had posted that one or not. I guess I had.

I was speaking to one of my players earlier today, and he was telling me how well that rule had worked out in our game since I started using it a few months ago.

I made a mental note to post it to the forum...and I guess I already did that way back when I first designed it!

except if you make the End roll the stat should be raised back to half of the original value , not just 1

We've been raising the stat to 1, not half. I guess it depends on how deadly you want the game to be.

If I mentioned bringing it to half, I must have dropped that somewhere along the line.

Going to 1, I've found, puts the stunned character on the extreme defensive--he may be stunned again, but it gets less and less likely that he'll make the END check.

I mean, if you went to half, a character could withstand several stuns. In a boxing match, once a boxer gets dazed like that, it's usually not a good sign at all. He's probably going to loose the fight.

Going to 1 keeps that reality when using this rule.

A GM who wanted more damage resistant characters, though, could easily go to half and have his PC able to withstand many more stuns that what I'm allowing in my game.

 

[mike wightman]

I suppose it comes down to the amount of realism v cinematic you want in the game.

Raising the stat to half does give a better chance of being able to take another hit, while raising it back to 1 is going to make the player hyper cautious.

Perhaps the raised value could be randomised to keep the player guessing...

 

[mike wightman]

I suppose it comes down to the amount of realism v cinematic you want in the game.

Raising the stat to half does give a better chance of being able to take another hit, while raising it back to 1 is going to make the player hyper cautious.

Perhaps the raised value could be randomised to keep the player guessing...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I suppose it comes down to the amount of realism v cinematic you want in the game.

Absolutely. I like to keep one foot in each venue.

Of course, your raise to half stat does make some sense--it's what happens when a person comes-to from being knocked unconscious. Certainly someone could argue that if you're that alert after you've been knocked unconscious, you can be at half stat when just being dazed for 15 seconds or so.

I'd still argue the other way (with respect to a few reasons--one of which is described below), but I think both versions of the END stat are good rules. It just depends on personal taste and play style.

Raising the stat to half does give a better chance of being able to take another hit, while raising it back to 1 is going to make the player hyper cautious.

Yep, when someone gets stunned in my game, with the stat going up to 1, they're, typically, almost out of the fight.

But, I like that. (1) It allows the game to be deadly--while not being the PC killer that vanilla CT is (especially with the first blood rule). (2) On the other hand, the stun means the character is "almost" out. In a fight, when the other guy starts to stagger, you know you've probably got 'em...which is what happens with the "raise to 1" thingy.

Perhaps the raised value could be randomised to keep the player guessing...

Hmm...neat idea. What about raising the stat 1D points with a cap of the original END level (if END is lower than 6)?






Here's one of the things I don't like about raising to half stat (or higher than one point), though....

Take Barcen, for example. His stats are 496558.

Barcen gets in a fight.

On round one, Barcen gets hit and damaged. His physicals are now 364.

On round two, Barcen is hit again. His physicals are: 324.

On round three, Barcen is hit yet again. This time, random damage knocks out his DEX score: 304.

Under my "stat to 1 point" rule, Barcen will have physicals of 314 if he makes the 2D for 4- END check. Otherwise, he's unconscious.

But, under the "raise to half" rule, Barcen will have physicals of 354 if he makes the 2D for 4- END check.

THAT'S the problem I have with the "raise to half" thingy. See...the dude gets hit hard and stunned...and that stun actually heals him .

On round two, Barcen has DEX-2. On round three, Barcen is hit, stunned, but his DEX is raised to DEX-5 (because of the raise to half rule).

That seems counter-intuitive to me. The guy is hit hard and stunned, but when he shakes it off, he's actually better off...not worse off..than he was before he was dazed.

Barcen is stunned, so his DEX goes up 3 points from the previous round?
This is my strongest case for going with the "raise to 1" rule over what you're using.

When raising to 1, Barcen will never be healed due to a stun.

Have you considered that, Sig?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I suppose it comes down to the amount of realism v cinematic you want in the game.

Absolutely. I like to keep one foot in each venue.

Of course, your raise to half stat does make some sense--it's what happens when a person comes-to from being knocked unconscious. Certainly someone could argue that if you're that alert after you've been knocked unconscious, you can be at half stat when just being dazed for 15 seconds or so.

I'd still argue the other way (with respect to a few reasons--one of which is described below), but I think both versions of the END stat are good rules. It just depends on personal taste and play style.

Raising the stat to half does give a better chance of being able to take another hit, while raising it back to 1 is going to make the player hyper cautious.

Yep, when someone gets stunned in my game, with the stat going up to 1, they're, typically, almost out of the fight.

But, I like that. (1) It allows the game to be deadly--while not being the PC killer that vanilla CT is (especially with the first blood rule). (2) On the other hand, the stun means the character is "almost" out. In a fight, when the other guy starts to stagger, you know you've probably got 'em...which is what happens with the "raise to 1" thingy.

Perhaps the raised value could be randomised to keep the player guessing...

Hmm...neat idea. What about raising the stat 1D points with a cap of the original END level (if END is lower than 6)?






Here's one of the things I don't like about raising to half stat (or higher than one point), though....

Take Barcen, for example. His stats are 496558.

Barcen gets in a fight.

On round one, Barcen gets hit and damaged. His physicals are now 364.

On round two, Barcen is hit again. His physicals are: 324.

On round three, Barcen is hit yet again. This time, random damage knocks out his DEX score: 304.

Under my "stat to 1 point" rule, Barcen will have physicals of 314 if he makes the 2D for 4- END check. Otherwise, he's unconscious.

But, under the "raise to half" rule, Barcen will have physicals of 354 if he makes the 2D for 4- END check.

THAT'S the problem I have with the "raise to half" thingy. See...the dude gets hit hard and stunned...and that stun actually heals him .

On round two, Barcen has DEX-2. On round three, Barcen is hit, stunned, but his DEX is raised to DEX-5 (because of the raise to half rule).

That seems counter-intuitive to me. The guy is hit hard and stunned, but when he shakes it off, he's actually better off...not worse off..than he was before he was dazed.

Barcen is stunned, so his DEX goes up 3 points from the previous round?
This is my strongest case for going with the "raise to 1" rule over what you're using.

When raising to 1, Barcen will never be healed due to a stun.

Have you considered that, Sig?

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, I understand what you mean, which is why at the end of combat I have all stats lose their temporary increases, and every stat reduced to 0 (which could be the same stat several times) makes medical treatment and healing more difficult.

The temporary increase of a stat back to half (I'm now tempted by a d3...) to me represents adrenalin, second wind, that sort of thing.

By the way, how does random damage keep affecting Barcen's Dex - the player allocates the damage doesn't he

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, I understand what you mean, which is why at the end of combat I have all stats lose their temporary increases, and every stat reduced to 0 (which could be the same stat several times) makes medical treatment and healing more difficult.

The temporary increase of a stat back to half (I'm now tempted by a d3...) to me represents adrenalin, second wind, that sort of thing.

By the way, how does random damage keep affecting Barcen's Dex - the player allocates the damage doesn't he

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
By the way, how does random damage keep affecting Barcen's Dex - the player allocates the damage doesn't he

I was using the random damage idea from my CT enhanced combat rules (where a damage die is randomized for ever 2+ points rolled over 8 on the attack roll....10+...12+...14+...etc.).

It was just an example to make the point of a stun actually healing the character.

The higher that stat normally (that is reduced to 0), the more the healing/adrenaline pump/second wind is for the character.

Just my take on it...that I wouldn't care for that healing aspect of the stun in my game.

Your "how many times you've been stunned affects the medical roll" is interesting, though.

The one thing I wouldn't care for with that, though, is that it sounds like some bookkeeping is involved. Gotta keep track of who's wounded and how many times (unless you've got some system to skip the tracking of that).

I actually really like the vanilla CT rule where a number of combat swings or blows can be made equal to the character's END score. But, I don't use that rule in my game (even though I like it) because it requires me to keep track of how many blows (and if the character ate the negative and skipped a combat blow) each character has made.

What I do in my game (when it comes to the END combat blow thingy) is to not worry about it. A character can make any number of blows as long as he's not wounded. But,as soon as a stat is reduced (even 1 point) from damage, the Weakened Blow rule kicks in.

That way, it's easy to tell if the Weakened Blow rule is used. Are they damaged? If so, use the WB rule. If not, then it's a no-penalty attack.

Do you have some system where bookkeeping is not required for your medical roll?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
By the way, how does random damage keep affecting Barcen's Dex - the player allocates the damage doesn't he

I was using the random damage idea from my CT enhanced combat rules (where a damage die is randomized for ever 2+ points rolled over 8 on the attack roll....10+...12+...14+...etc.).

It was just an example to make the point of a stun actually healing the character.

The higher that stat normally (that is reduced to 0), the more the healing/adrenaline pump/second wind is for the character.

Just my take on it...that I wouldn't care for that healing aspect of the stun in my game.

Your "how many times you've been stunned affects the medical roll" is interesting, though.

The one thing I wouldn't care for with that, though, is that it sounds like some bookkeeping is involved. Gotta keep track of who's wounded and how many times (unless you've got some system to skip the tracking of that).

I actually really like the vanilla CT rule where a number of combat swings or blows can be made equal to the character's END score. But, I don't use that rule in my game (even though I like it) because it requires me to keep track of how many blows (and if the character ate the negative and skipped a combat blow) each character has made.

What I do in my game (when it comes to the END combat blow thingy) is to not worry about it. A character can make any number of blows as long as he's not wounded. But,as soon as a stat is reduced (even 1 point) from damage, the Weakened Blow rule kicks in.

That way, it's easy to tell if the Weakened Blow rule is used. Are they damaged? If so, use the WB rule. If not, then it's a no-penalty attack.

Do you have some system where bookkeeping is not required for your medical roll?

 

[mike wightman]

Don't you have bookkeeping anyway for stat reduction

You have to keep a running total of the attribute value as injuries are taken.

I keep track of it, it's easy enough to keep a tally for each character on a piece of scrap paper.

A couple of players keep their own records as well, just so they know I'm not messing around with them

 

[mike wightman]

Don't you have bookkeeping anyway for stat reduction

You have to keep a running total of the attribute value as injuries are taken.

I keep track of it, it's easy enough to keep a tally for each character on a piece of scrap paper.

A couple of players keep their own records as well, just so they know I'm not messing around with them

 

[atpollard]

I always preferred the Hit Point like damage systems.
Hit Points (HP) = Str + Dex + End
Unconcious HP (UHP) = HP / 3

If any single attack does more than UHP damage, then the character is knocked out (or stunned under your optional rules). Otherwise all damage is subtracted from the HP total.

Everything except 1 ability reduced to 0 or all 3 abilities reduced to 0 seemed like a lot of record keeping for a trivial detail that just affects how long the character needs to heal AFTER the adventure. If you really want to track minor vs serious wounds, then add consequences for HP falling below UHP (simulates two statistics reduced to 0).

 

[atpollard]

I always preferred the Hit Point like damage systems.
Hit Points (HP) = Str + Dex + End
Unconcious HP (UHP) = HP / 3

If any single attack does more than UHP damage, then the character is knocked out (or stunned under your optional rules). Otherwise all damage is subtracted from the HP total.

Everything except 1 ability reduced to 0 or all 3 abilities reduced to 0 seemed like a lot of record keeping for a trivial detail that just affects how long the character needs to heal AFTER the adventure. If you really want to track minor vs serious wounds, then add consequences for HP falling below UHP (simulates two statistics reduced to 0).