CT Only: CT HG 2e Small Crew

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

Yes, I am back once again trying to determine if I understand the small craft gunner requirements in HG 2e p. 34

One type of weapon would be Laser (1, 2 , or 3), missile rack (1, 2, or 3), sandcaster (1, 2, or 3), fusion or plasma gun (1 or 2), and particle beam (1)

Laser: Pilot acting as gunner
Laser + Missile Rack: Pilot acting as Laser gunner + Gunner for Missile Rack
Laser + Missile Rack: Gunner for Laser + Gunner for Missile Rack
Laser + Missile Rack + Sandcaster: Gunner for Laser + Gunner for Missile Rack + Pilot acting as sandcaster gunner
Laser + Missile Rack + Sandcaster: Gunner for Laser + Gunner for Missile Rack + Gunner for sandcaster

Guess 1:
2 or 3 Lasers: Pilot acting as gunner
2 or 3 Lasers: 1 gunner
2 Lasers + missile rack: Pilot acting as gunner for lasers + 1 missile rack gunner
2 Lasers + missile rack: 1 Gunner for lasers + 1 gunner for missile rack

Guess 2:
2 Lasers: Pilot acting as gunner + 1 gunner
2 Lasers: 2 gunners
3 Lasers: Pilot acting as gunner + 2 gunners
3 Lasers: 3 gunners
2 Lasers + missile rack: Pilot acting as gunner + 1 laser gunner + 1 missile rack gunner
2 Lasers + missile rack: 2 laser gunners + 1 missile gunners

 

[AnotherDilbert]

One type of weapon would be Laser (1, 2 , or 3), missile rack (1, 2, or 3), sandcaster (1, 2, or 3), fusion or plasma gun (1 or 2), and particle beam (1)

Yes. The pilot can fire any number of the same type of weapon, but extra gunners can only fire a single weapon.

Laser + Missile Rack + Sandcaster: Gunner for Laser + Gunner for Missile Rack + Pilot acting as sandcaster gunner

No extra gunner is required for the Sandcaster. So it would be: Pilot fires the Laser, one gunner for the Missile rack.

2 Lasers + missile rack: Pilot acting as gunner for lasers + 1 missile rack gunner

Yes.


Effectively we never need more than one gunner.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Yes. The pilot can fire any number of the same type of weapon, but extra gunners can only fire a single weapon.

No extra gunner is required for the Sandcaster. So it would be: Pilot fires the Laser, one gunner for the Missile rack.

Yes.

Effectively we never need more than one gunner.

Looking at the entire text from CT HG 2e p. 34 Weapons:

"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, an no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy points must be observed. The pilot is assumed to be a gunner for one type of weapon. If additional weapon types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters."

Here are are I believe to be the combinations of three types of weapon that may be carried by a small craft:

Laser x 3; Missile Rack x 3; Sandcaster x 3; Laser x 2/Missile Rack; Laser x 2/Sandcaster; Missile Rack x 2/Laser; Missile Rack x2/Sandcaster; Sandcaster x2/Laser; Sandcaster x2/Missile Rack; or Laser/Missile Rack/Sandcaster.

I believe we agree for "Yes. The pilot can fire any number of the same type of weapon..." that the pilot acting as a gunner would be able to operate weapon type Laser x (1, 2, or 3) or weapon type Missile Rack (1, 2, or 3) without a gunner.

What I believe is being said by "....but extra gunners can only fire a single weapon." means that a small craft with the equivalent of a turret with 2 lasers would need 2 gunners if the pilot is not operating one of the lasers.

If the combination a small craft with the equivalent of a turret carried was 1 laser and 1 missile rack and the pilot was not operating either one the rule appears to require a gunner for the laser and one for the missile rack.

I can see why the comment of "No extra gunner is required for the Sandcaster. So it would be: Pilot fires the Laser, one gunner for the Missile rack." was made to my Laser (Gunner) + Missile Rack (Gunner) + Sandcaster (Pilot).

Here is my thinking for Laser (Gunner) + Missile Rack (Gunner) + Sandcaster (Pilot) versus Laser (Pilot) + Missile Rack (Gunner) + Sandcaster.

My thinking is that there would be a time delay for one of the two operators switching from laser or missile rack to the sandcaster. Indicating that, in the example, the Pilot was operating the sandcaster there would be no delay other than saying "the pilot is firing the the sandcaster" instead of switching from missile rack/laser to sandcaster.

Thank you for the help.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would say more than one gunner is not absolutely necessary, but you can of course add as many additional crew as you wish.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

I would say more than one gunner is not absolutely necessary, but you can of course add as many additional crew as you wish.

I do agree with you that one gunner regardless if the weapon or weapons are in a rigid mount or a turret would be capable of operating them. My research of combat aircraft supports the idea that the pilot is capable of handling rigidly mounted ordnance. I feel that when the craft is equipped with a turret then a gunner should be added of course the pilot might be able to operate a turret and fly the craft but I'm fairly sure that this would impact on both actions.

However, each time I have suggested that the small craft pilot could handle all the weapons or a gunner could handle all the weapons the replies have indicated my interpretation is out to lunch.

I was hoping that this time I might be on the right track and apparently I am still out to lunch.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[kilemall]

Gunner handles mixed weapons in CT, don't know why it would be otherwise other then overwrought concern for those rules.

Guess I would tend to go with fixed weapons are pilot, turreted weapons are gunner, but again that's just me.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello kilemall,

Gunner handles mixed weapons in CT, don't know why it would be otherwise other then overwrought concern for those rules.

Guess I would tend to go with fixed weapons are pilot, turreted weapons are gunner, but again that's just me.

I believe that you and AnotherDilbert are interpreting the CT small craft Weapon rules as.

1. The pilot can operate all weapons carried onboard the small craft and that they are probably in rigid mounts.

2. A single gunner can operate all weapons carried onboard the small craft in an assumed turret or probable rigid mounts.

If my understanding is correct then this is how I have felt the small craft weapons should be handled since I read them back in 1977/1981 with CT LBB 2 and with CT LBB 5 in 1979/1980.

Unfortunately, when I checked on the discussion boards and forums over the past few years the result has been my interpretation is out to lunch.

Thank you and AnotherDilbert for the replies.

 

[atpollard]

Weapons: A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restrictions must be observed. The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters.

So starting from what it says.
Easy case first ... "no additional gunner is required for sandcasters". Sounds to me like, no matter what, the pilot CAN (is able to) operate the sand casters and fly the ship. I see nothing there that FORBIDS a gunner from operating a sandcaster, merely that a gunner is not required.

"equivalent of one turret" ... so not necessarily one actual turret, just as many weapons as would fit in a turret. So four lasers or three Fusion Guns or two Particle Accelerators are not permitted on any small craft since they will not fit in one turret. That seemed clear enough.

"mountings are probably rigid" ... interesting word 'probably'. It could have said the mountings ARE rigid or MUST BE rigid, but it says are PROBABLY rigid. So the mountings are not required to be rigid, are they? Even if they are not in a full turret, they could still be movable with an arc of fire. There are plenty of real world examples. A flexible mount seems handy where a gunner is present. It would be nice to aim the weapon without needing to ask the pilot to turn the ship.

I think a little common sense is all that is called for here.
How is a pilot going to aim a turret and fly a ship at the same time? At best, you might have a helicopter chin turret linked to a pilots helmet like a combat helicopter, but a full ball turret is impractical for a pilot to operate. On the other hand, what is a gunner going to do with a rigid mounted weapon?

So the actual limitations baked into the rules are PILOT may act as 'gunner' for one weapon type (plus sandcasters) and each additional weapon requires a GUNNER.

Nothing in this prohibits a gunner from operating a mixed turret and the pilot controlling no weapons. A 'probably' rigid mount could be a 'possibly' triple turret with a gunner.

 

[atpollard]

1. The pilot can operate all weapons carried onboard the small craft and that they are probably in rigid mounts.

As written, the Pilot may operate one TYPE of weapon (probably in rigid mounts) plus any sandcasters.
So a Pilot could operate:
YES: 3 missiles
YES: 3 lasers
YES: 2 fusion guns
YES: 1 particle accelerator
YES: 2 lasers & 1 sandcaster
YES: 2 missiles & 1 sandcaster
YES: 1 missile & 2 sandcasters
YES: 1 laser & 2 sandcasters
YES: 3 sandcasters

However, a Pilot could NOT operate two types of weapons:
NO: 2 lasers & 1 missile
NO: 2 missiles & 1 laser
NO: 1 missile, 1 laser & 1 sandcaster

2. A single gunner can operate all weapons carried onboard the small craft in an assumed turret or probable rigid mounts.

While a gunner operating all weapons is reasonable and a gunner operating all weapons in a rigid mount is not FORBIDDEN by the rules ... how exactly would a gunner aim a weapon that requires the entire craft to turn to aim? At that point, the gunner is flying the craft. I think that for practical reasons, gunner controlled weapons must have some fleximility in their mounts to permit aiming without flying the ship. Personally, I like the assumed turret.

 

[mike wightman]

It depends on how many batteries you decide the fighter has.

If a fighter has three lasers, each as a separate battery then two gunners will be required in addition to the pilot.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If a fighter has three lasers, each as a separate battery ...

I don't think the battery rules allow that?

... then two gunners will be required in addition to the pilot.

The small craft crew rules don't say that.

 

[atpollard]

If a fighter has three lasers, each as a separate battery then two gunners will be required in addition to the pilot.

The small craft crew rules don't say that.

Weapons: A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restrictions must be observed. The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters.

... "each additional weapon" not weapon type.

Common sense should prevail. If I have two lasers on a dorsal turret (1 battery) and firing at one target, one gunner firing both weapons makes sense. If I have a port Laser Turret and a Starboard Laser turret firing at different targets (2 batteries), then two gunners make more sense.

 

[mike wightman]

I don't think the battery rules allow that?


The small craft crew rules don't say that.

And where, exactly and in black and white, does it say the battery rules do not apply to smallcraft? :devil:

Where is the explicit or implied statement that all of the rules on batteries do not apply?

On ships 1000 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons
of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon
is a battery.

turret weapons should have a crew of at least one per battery.

:CoW:

 

[mike wightman]

That sloppily worded sentence is the root cause of all of this.

The intent is clear, so here it is:

If additional types [of weapon]are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon [type].

And of course - sandcasters don't count as a weapon type.

This is what I have always understood the meaning to be.

 

[Whipsnade]

Good Sweet Strephon... not this idiocy again...

Our Absent Friend Don settled this years ago with the CT errata/clarification project, specifically with the clarifications regarding sub-1000dTon battery assignments, mixed weapon turrets, and gunner requirements.

 

[kilemall]

Good Sweet Strephon... not this idiocy again...

Our Absent Friend Don settled this years ago with the CT errata/clarification project, specifically with the clarifications regarding sub-1000dTon battery assignments, mixed weapon turrets, and gunner requirements.

Quick, quote the relevant passage, so those that must can follow that and the rest will do whatever we damn well please.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If additional types [of weapon]are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon [type].

Agreed.

And where, exactly and in black and white, does it say the battery rules do not apply to smallcraft? :devil:

I would say battery rules do apply.

Where is the explicit or implied statement that all of the rules on batteries do not apply?

I have interpreted this as follows:

The small craft design system start with:
"Production of small craft uses a system which differs in some details from that used for starships and non-starships of 100 tons or more."
So we use the same system as starships except where overridden. Crew requirements are overridden. Battery formation is not overridden.

I think we agree this applies to small craft:
"A battery may be as few as one turret, or as many as ten, ... On ships 1000 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon is a battery."
In mixed turrets each weapon is a battery, but a turret with three lasers is per definition not a mixed turret, so it must be a single battery.

The small craft section overrides the crew requirements:
"The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters."
Three lasers are a single type of weapon, hence the pilot can fire all the lasers, no additional gunners required, regardless of how many batteries are involved.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning PST all,

1. From CT LBB 5 HG 2e

Batteries p. 29 1st paragraph Third sentence
"A battery may be as few as one turret, or as many as ten, but all batteries must of the same type of weapon must have the same weapon code (USP factor)."

Batteries p. 29 1st paragraph Last sentence
"On ships 1,000 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different typesin the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon is a battery."

Turrets p. 30 2nd paragraph
"Turrets are installed on hardpoints with single, dual, and triple configurations, and allow the mounting of lasers (beam or pulse), energy weapons (plasma or fusion, sandcasters, particle accelerators, and missile racks. Lasers, sandcasters, and missile racks may be mounted in any turret; energy weapons may be mounted in single or dual turrets; particle accelerators may only be mounted in single turrets. On ships with more than ten turrets, weapons may not be mixed within a turret.

Turret pp. 30-31 4th paragraph
"The turret weapons table indicates each type of turret weapon in column and the nine possible USP code ratings in rows. The number at the intersection is the number of weapons of the type indicated required to achieve the USP rating."

Turret Weapons Table column headers p. 25: Missile; Beam Laser; Pulse Laser; Plasma Gun; Fusion Gun; Sandcaster; Particle Accelerator; Particle Accelerator Barbette.

Gunnery Section p. 33 second sentence:
"The major weapon (spinal mount) should have a crew of one per 100 tons of weapon; bay weapons should have a crew of at least two; turret weapons should have a crew of at least one per battery."

Summary:
The types of turret weapons available are Missile; Beam Laser; Pulse Laser; Plasma Gun; Fusion Gun; Sandcaster; Particle Accelerator; and Particle Accelerator Barbette.

The number of weapon types or types of weapon that may be installed in a turret is Missile (1, 2, or 3); Beam Laser (1, 2, or 3); Pulse Laser (1, 2, or 3); Sandcaster (1,2, or 3); Plasma Gun (1 or 2); Fusion Gun (1 or 2); Particle Accelerator (1); and article Accelerator Barbette (1).

One turret may be designated as a battery.

A turret with mixed types of weapons or weapon types each installed weapon type or type of weapon is a battery.

Turret weapons should have a crew of at least one per turret which has been designated as a battery.

Examples:
E1. A 100 ton ship has one turret with three sandcaster type of weapons installed and is designated as a single battery of three sandcasters. On a ship's record sheet the USP under sandcaster is 3, Batteries Bearing 1, Batteries 1, and should have at least a crew of one.

E2. A 100 ton ship has one turret with two sandcasters and one beam laser weapon types installed. The turret having a mix of weapon types has one sandcaster battery, one sandcaster battery and on beam laser battery. On a ship's record sheet the Sandcaster USP 1, Batteries bearing 2, Batteries 2, and Beam Laser USP 1, Batteries Bearing 1, and Batteries 1. I am of the opinion that this turret should have a crew of one because having a crew member operating the beam laser and/or a crew member operating the other sandcaster makes no sense.


2. Is a Sandcaster a type of weapon?
Based on the information shown above a sandcaster is a type of weapon.

3. CT LBB 5 HG 2e Small Craft Weapons and Crew requirements pp. 34-35

"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restrictions must be observed. The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters."

Examples of an assumed turret for all computations:

E1. A 50 ton small craft for computations of the ship's data sheet is assumed to carry one turret. The turret has three beam lasers which means that if the pilot is assumed to be the gunner. The alternative is to assign a gunner.

E2. A 50 ton small craft for computations of the ship's data sheet is assumed to carry one turret. The turret has three sandcasters which means that either the pilot is assumed to be the gunner or a gunner can be assigned.

E3. A 50 ton small craft for computations of the ship's data sheet is assumed to carry one turret. The turret has a mixed type of weapons consisting of one sandcaster, one missile rack, and one pulse laser.

The rules appear to indicate that this turret assuming the pilot is the sandcaster gunner also has a missile rack gunner and a pulse laser gunner.
Alternately the rules suggest that this turret, if the pilot is not acting as a gunner, would have a separate gunner for each type of weapon installed. The gunner operating the sandcaster is optional which would mean no one was operating the sandcaster.

Having three operators trying to control a single turret with three different weapons makes no sense in the TU or the real world.

I can agree that if the assumed turret has the same type of weapon the pilot, under the rules, could operate the turret with the CT LBB 2 Starships 2e p. 17 rule of the pilot firing at -1 skill level.

I can agree that the more probable situation is that a gunner is assigned to operate the turret.

I cannot agree that when a small craft turret has mixed types of weapons that each type of weapon in the turret, with the exception of a sandcaster, requires a separate gunner.

However, I can get behind the idea of a small craft mixed turret having one gunner that has to declare which weapon will be used in the next round of combat.

4. "In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and not actual turret is present."

For lasers, sandcasters, plasma guns, fusion guns, and particle accelerators that are in rigid mounts the craft has to be pointed at the target which makes me believe that the pilot is the gunner regardless of the types of weapons installed.

I can go with a gunner handling a missile rack that is rigidly mounted while the pilot handles other weapons.

In short for an armed small craft assumed to have:

A. One turret with the same type of weapons can be operated by a pilot or have a gunner assigned.

B. One turret with the mixed types of weapons can only be operated by a gunner assigned.

C. Rigidly mounted types of weapons, with the exception of missile racks, are operated by the pilot. Missile racks can be operated by either a pilot of a gunner.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

E3. A 50 ton small craft for computations of the ship's data sheet is assumed to carry one turret. The turret has a mixed type of weapons consisting of one sandcaster, one missile rack, and one pulse laser.

The pilot fires the laser, a gunner fires the missile rack (or vice versa), and the sandcaster need no gunner.

We never need more than one gunner.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

The pilot fires the laser, a gunner fires the missile rack (or vice versa), and the sandcaster need no gunner.

We never need more than one gunner.

Yep, one gunner per turret is the minimum requirement and one gunner on hulls >= 100 tons can operate any mix of weapons in the turret. Additionally, a turret being mounted on a hull >= 100 tons observe the restrictions for weight, tech level, cost, and energy points listed on CT LBB 5 HG 2e p. 25.

A small craft assumes one turret is carried for all computations and the turret must observe the weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restriction shown on the Turret Weapons Table on CT LBB 5 HG 2e p. 25.

A small craft with an assumed turret equipped with one type of weapon assumes that the pilot acts as the gunner too.

The same small craft with an assumed turret equipped with one type of weapon that the pilot is not acting as a gunner would need a gunner assigned.

If The same small craft with an assumed turret is equipped with sandcasters and the pilot is not acting as a gunner who is going to fire the sandcasters?

I would say that if the small craft has a computer a software program might do the trick, but I would rather have a gunner since the pilot is not acting as a gunner.

Based on the entire turret rules, not just small craft, a turret regardless of the mix of weapons installed needs one crew to operate it.

If the weapons are in rigid mountings requiring a gunner, with the exception of a missile rack, makes no sense when the pilot has to point the small craft at the target.

One gunner can operate any type of weapons mix in a small craft's assumed turret.

The pilot is assumed to operate an assumed small craft's turret if there is only one type of weapon installed, however if there is a mix of weapon types a gunner is required to operate the turret. The small craft gunner is operating the turret and the weapons installed even if one of them is a sandcaster.