CT Mass Combat Resolution

[tbeard1999]

I came across some CT material I created in the early 80s and thought I'd share. I ran heavy combat oriented games and occasionally had mass battles to resolve. Rather than use the abstract systems of Mercenary, I used a couple of existing board war games. My main go-to game was GEV. It was a very simple, fast moving game that could be played in very short time periods. The units were defined with attack, range, defense and movement. Very simple odds based combat system. Attack strengths ran from 1 (very lights weapns) to 6. 4 was the rating for heavy MBTs, 2 for light tanks, etc. All you had to do was rate the battlefield systems in GEV terms, and off you went. So, in a TL10 game that had early grav tanks facing TL8 tanks, the ratings would look like this. The TL10 MBTs had an attack strength of 4 range of 4 and a defense strength of 4. They moved like GEVs (I.e., 4 then 3). The TL8 MBTs had an attack strength of 3, range 2, defense 2, movement of 3. TL10 infantry had double the attack and defense strength of the standard GEV infantry. TL8 infantry had standard GEV ratings.

A good size battle could be resolved quickly and easily in 30-45 minutes. The key was to rate everything relatively. In other words, the most powerful direct fire weapon should be in the 4 range, the best defense around 3, best non-hover or grav movement 3, etc.

For infantry heavy games, I'd often use Squad Leader (without the supplements).

Anyhow, this proved a lot of fun when used for critical battles.

 

[flykiller]

My main go-to game was GEV.

everyone always recommends out of print stuff. "that'll be $200" ....

Very simple odds based combat system.

any hint on how it works?

 

[Whipsnade]

Ahhh... GEV... The old reliable...

Simple, yet not simplistic. Quick, fun, you could choose your own OOBS. We wore out a copy during a cruise off Petropavlovsk so I took care to xerox a few backups before the WestPac that followed.

Ever see this one, Ty? Boots, Tracks, and Hoverskirts It's meant to be a battalion level, operational, hex based game for 2300AD. I can't say it succeeded at that, but it came damn close. After stumbling across it, I putzed around with it for a couple of years around the turn of the century.

At the time I thought the combat system reminded me of another game, and I still do. I can't put my finger on it though.

any hint on how it works?

Nothing fancy, Fly. Just the Attack Factor to Defense Factor ratio we've been using since Tactics II.

Most of the usual wrinkles too. U-Go, I-Go turns. Attacks above certain odds were auto-kills, attacks below certain odds couldn't happen. "Spill over" fire when attacking stacks. Overrruns. GEVs (armed hovercraft) got to move twice. It was a sequel to Ogre and so included them. That meant there were special rules for Ogres naturally.

 

[aramis]

everyone always recommends out of print stuff. "that'll be $200" ....



any hint on how it works?

GEV and OGRE are the same rules, and OGRE is back in print.
Also, the OGRE minis rules are available direct from SJG, in PDF, and aside from replacing 1 hex with 2" (for ranges and movement)... it's the same mechanics.

The standard Heavy Tank is D3 M3 4/2.
It moves 3 hexes per turn. It's defense 3. It's fire is strength 4 to range 2.
If 1 heavy tank fires on an enemy heavy tank, the strength 4 is compared to the target defense 3. this is 4:3, or 1.333:1
The table categories are 1:2, 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, and 5:1. 5:1 is all destroyed results. Anything under 1:2 is a "no effect"... for 1:2 to 4.999:1, a die is rolled and indexed on the table, resulting in either miss, disabled, or destroyed.

On an X result, you hit, destroying the target.
On a D, you hit near, disabling the target for one turn.
On a —, you missed.

OGRE/GEV has one major verisimilitude problem for me when trying to use it for anything else: it presumes tacnukes. Even for the infantry.

And infantry is presumed to be battlesuited.

When doing large scale combats, I much prefer to use the Invasion Earth rules (very similar to the FFW rules). Both of which are on the CT CD...

 

[Whipsnade]

And infantry is presumed to be battlesuited.

Wil, have you ever played Battlesuit? It's the redheaded stepchild of the Ogre/GEV/Shockwave line and it's intrigued me for years.

 

[mike wightman]

I have and really enjoyed it.

 

[Whipsnade]

Thanks in advance Mike 'cause I'm going to ask more questions!

I saw it years ago about the time it first came out and was intrigued from the first. I pushed it around solo a few times but couldn't interest anyone else in my group to give it a whirl. I think the point-to-point map turned them off as well as the terrain elevation rules.

How well do you think it's held up? Were the various drones - they really piqued my interest - actually helpful or were they more of a gimmick? Same question for the different types of suits; gimmick or not? IIRC, the suits had a limited flight/hop capability ala SST. Was that useful? Or only in certain situations?

What do you think of Traveller-izing it? Adding canon weapons? Even expanding the personnel types to include combat armor and "soft skin" along with battledress?

 

[tbeard1999]

Ever see this one, Ty? Boots, Tracks, and Hoverskirts

No I haven't. For reasonably fast playing grav armor rules, you could use Grav Armor by Heritage. Reaper has graciously made this available for download with permission of the copyright holders.

http://dwarfstar.brainiac.com/ds_gravarmor.html

 

[tbeard1999]

everyone always recommends out of print stuff. "that'll be $200" any hint on how it works?

Oh, I could quote the rules from memory probably.

But here are the Ogre rules free at the SJG website:

http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/products/ogredesigner/img/ogre_rulebook.pdf

This appears to have all the rules that GEV had, as well as a lot of extras that GEV didn't. Ignore rules involving Ogres, cruise missiles, buildings, lasers, etc., and you have a very short and playable game.

Free Counters: http://www.warehouse23.com/products/ogre-classic-counters-1
(You can also buy classic counters mounted from SJG)

List on GEV compatible game maps: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/articles/maparticle2.html I'd add Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, any wargame with a ground scale of 1 hex = ~1500m or 1 mile.

GEV/Ogre maps http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=47171

Look up GEV on Boardgame Geek as well for additional stuff.

 

[tbeard1999]

Thanks in advance Mike 'cause I'm going to ask more questions!

I saw it years ago about the time it first came out and was intrigued from the first. I pushed it around solo a few times but couldn't interest anyone else in my group to give it a whirl. I think the point-to-point map turned them off as well as the terrain elevation rules.

How well do you think it's held up? Were the various drones - they really piqued my interest - actually helpful or were they more of a gimmick? Same question for the different types of suits; gimmick or not? IIRC, the suits had a limited flight/hop capability ala SST. Was that useful? Or only in certain situations?

What do you think of Traveller-izing it? Adding canon weapons? Even expanding the personnel types to include combat armor and "soft skin" along with battledress?

I remember it as an insert in the Space Gamer magazine. The point to point movement was unsettling, but the pattern was hexagonal. So you could easily convert it to hexes. As I recall, it didn't have vehicles, which reduced its attractiveness to me.

 

[infojunky]

Oh, I could quote the rules from memory probably.

But here are the Ogre rules free at the SJG website:

http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/products/ogredesigner/img/ogre_rulebook.pdf

My favorite version of those rules Ogre Minatures is available as a PDF...

http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/miniatures/

 

[tbeard1999]

What do you think of Traveller-izing it? Adding canon weapons? Even expanding the personnel types to include combat armor and "soft skin" along with battledress?

I would caution referees about getting overly involved in discrete rules modeling specific weapons. GEV's real charm was that this was all reduced to an attack factor and range. You can describe a 4 attack strength with range 2 as a railgun, or fusion gun, whatever.

The key insight I think I had was that you simply rated the Traveller units against each other. So in a given battle, the most powerful vehicle mounted weapon would be a 4. On rare occasions, a 6. Artillery would be 6, 4, 2 or 1 depending on relative effectiveness. Light weapons like MGs or autocannon would be 1.

The heaviest armored vehicle would have a defense of 3. Maybe 4. Light tanks would have a defense of 2. Vehicles with minimal armor have a defense of 1.

Fast tracked/wheeled vehicles move 3 hexes. Slower ones move 2 hexes. Infantry and very slow vehicles move 1 hex. If grav vehicles exist, they move 4/3 (don't exceed this speed because it breaks the system) and hovercraft move 3/2. If hovercraft exist but no grav vehicles, they move 4/3. SP Artillery would move 2.

Long range vehicle mounted weapons (like missiles) have a range of 4. Artillery a range of 6+. Direct fire weapons have a range of 2, with a few having a range of 3. Infantry weapons range 1.

In many cases, you could use existing GEV counters.

Etc.

Remember, this game was designed to let you have a couple of dozen units on the board and would still play in 30 minutes. So it had to simplify a lot of things. Still among the best tactical games ever.

Summary of Ratings Ranges:

Direct Fire Attack Strength 1-4 (AT missiles 1-3)
Indirect Fire Attack Strength 1-6

Direct fire range: 1-3
AT missile range: 2-4
Infantry weapons range: 1; infantry missiles could be longer. A Milan would be range 1. A TOW would be range 2-3.

Tracked/wheeled vehicle movement 2-3
Grav or hover movement: 3/2 3/3 3/4
Infantry: 1

Super Heavy Armor: Defense 4
Heavy Armor: Defense 3
Light Armor: Defense 2
Very Light Armor: Defense 1

Armored Infantry: Defense 1 per squad
Unarmored Infantry: Defense 1/2 per squad

 

[tbeard1999]

My favorite version of those rules Ogre Minatures is available as a PDF...

http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/miniatures/

I would not use the miniature rules to fight out a Traveller battle. It will take substantially longer in my experience, though it's a perfectly fine rules set.

 

[flykiller]

But here are the Ogre rules free at the SJG website:

thanks, duckduckgo'ed it to there but didn't notice it was available and free, will check it out.

 

[infojunky]

I would not use the miniature rules to fight out a Traveller battle.

Blasphemy! Miniatures make everything Better.... :devil:


Actually For the longest time that has been my favorite version of the Ogre Rules. The non-Miniatures version is convert the Inches back to Hexes...

 

[tbeard1999]

OGRE/GEV has one major verisimilitude problem for me when trying to use it for anything else: it presumes tacnukes. Even for the infantry.

And infantry is presumed to be battlesuited.

When doing large scale combats, I much prefer to use the Invasion Earth rules (very similar to the FFW rules). Both of which are on the CT CD...

The rules still produce reasonable results for non-nuclear combat. Ignore spillover fire, of course. And that is the only GEV rule that actually reflects nuclear combat. EDIT -- the optional rules allowing the ruining of bridges and town hexes should be ignored as well.

Beyond that, a Heavy Tank will defeat a Light Tank most of the time as in real life. A missile armed tank has a decent chance of hurting the Heavy Tank if the missile tank gets first shot. Since it has double the range, there's a decent chance of this. If the missile tank fails, the heavy will likely destroy him when he gets in range.

As far as infantry, don't worry about it. Give each squad a defense of 1 and the results will be good enough.

If you have armored and unarmored infantry in a battle, give the unarmored infantry a 1/2 defense strength per squad.

One tweak that could be made would be to introduce an overwatch rule. From my rules A Fistful of TOWs 3 -- a unit that is eligible to fire may instead take an overwatch marker. This allows it to fire before, after or at any point in the enemy movement phase. If overwatch fire happens before or after the enemy movement phase, no modifiers apply. If the fire happens during the movement phase, apply a -1 to the attack roll.

A faster rule that gets about the same result would be the FFT Hold Fire rule: a unit that is eligible to fire may instead take a hold fire marker. This allows it to fire in the enemy fire phase. This fire happens before the enemy fires.

Or you can ignore overwatch. The very low speeds make panzerbushing less of a problem than one might expect.

If you are fighting a largely infantry action, the original Squad Leader game and rules can handle that superbly. Use the same approach -- everything is rated relative to what's in that fight.

This approach will produce *rational* outcomes; it will not replace dedicated wargames like A Fistful of TOWs or even Striker. But GEV or even SL are plenty fine for RPGs.

 

[tbeard1999]

Blasphemy! Miniatures make everything Better.... :devil:


Actually For the longest time that has been my favorite version of the Ogre Rules. The non-Miniatures version is convert the Inches back to Hexes...

As the author of "A Fistful of TOWs", I heartily agree. But they do take much longer than a small boardgame like GEV.

 

[Whipsnade]

I would caution...

Thread drift on my part, Ty. GEV reminded me of Battlesuit which in turn reminded me of my desire for a man-to-man rules set that could best be described as "Simplified AHL outside".

... overly involved in discrete rules modeling specific weapons.

Exactly. No weapons/range/armor matrix. Instead everything would be rated relative to the most powerful weapon - FGMP-15 - and the best armor - battledress.

... the most powerful vehicle mounted weapon...

I wasn't even thinking about vehicles, just the PBI with their drones. Scale would be on par with Battlesuit with vehicles and artillery entirely "off board".

 

[tbeard1999]

Thread drift on my part, Ty. GEV reminded me of Battlesuit which in turn reminded me of my desire for a man-to-man rules set that could best be described as "Simplified AHL outside".

Exactly. No weapons/range/armor matrix. Instead everything would be rated relative to the most powerful weapon - FGMP-15 - and the best armor - battledress.

I wasn't even thinking about vehicles, just the PBI with their drones. Scale would be on par with Battlesuit with vehicles and artillery entirely "off board".

Well, with a little work, I've always thought Striker could be made into a decent skirmish set of rules. The combat system is perfect. The turn sequence might work for a skirmish game (or not). Let me cogitate on that for a day or two... Might make for an interesting rules set. The purpose would be to create a fast moving skirmish game that can be plugged into a Traveller game.

 

[aramis]

Wil, have you ever played Battlesuit? It's the redheaded stepchild of the Ogre/GEV/Shockwave line and it's intrigued me for years.

Yes.

Great fun, a bit fiddly. Don't know where my copy is.