CT+, what would you do?

[zakrol]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Well a license to produce it for free use would almost have to be permission by default. No one could afford to buy a license and give away the work. Well, actually if I had the money I would, but I'm not stable so we can't go by me

Actually that's the only way I'd do it. I wouldn't want to just step all over Marc or Hunter with this. To be honest I'm a bit surprised at how this exploded out of such a small idea in so short a time. And all without much thought (posted at least) about this last concern which would normally come first.

To be honest, when it started looking like a project, pretty much my first thought was how the powers that be would view it. But then I got too interested in it and now you can't shut me up! My posts have doubled in the last 3 days or so.

I suppose the most likely outcome is that we might agree on a set of house rules that a smallish part of the Traveller community will use.

Simply put, Hunter's idea of CT+ is a damn good one which appeals greatly to a section of us, and we don't want it to fizzle and die completely. Hey, we've now had more than 400 posts in a few days which is over 1/4 of the T5 playtest forum.

It'd be brilliant if something concrete (PDF/dead tree) could come of this, but if not we can still use it individually and we're having fun.

It might be worth somebody who knows Hunter (robject?) getting his opinion. If we're going to have our ball taken away it might be best to know sooner than later.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by far-trader:

To be honest I'm a bit surprised at how this exploded out of such a small idea in so short a time. And all without much thought (posted at least) about this last concern which would normally come first.

I'll tell Hunter of our latest developments about CT+. The way I see it, it comes down to the difference between house rules and product.

This has been a long time coming... people have talked on COTI about CT-house-rules for at least two years, and batted around rules variants for years on the TML. It just seemed that the homebrew variants are converging to one or two solutions. And that appears to be correct.

We are not discussing a product. This is a discussion of modernizing CT: what we think would work best, and what alternate drop-ins we'd consider, and what homebrew rules appear to bring CT more up-to-date or full-featured.

It's very unfortunate that I labelled it very much like a product or publication. I took Hunter's concept, which others posted very sensible suggestions for, and organized their thoughts into a list, which I pared down and forced discussion about. It became obvious that there was a wide agreement on most points. CT+ was not intended to be a challenge to the Traveller line.

If anything, this view of CT+ as a product or brand is my fault. It's also my fault for not seeing this, and telling Hunter about our collaboration.

Let me be very clear on what I think of CT+. This is a selection of currently popular house rules. We posters here on COTI are not publishers, and do not want to be in competition with any edition of Traveller.

There's a reason Hunter stopped his CT+ product.

 

[flykiller]

This is a selection of currently popular house rules.

oh. I thought y'all were actually looking to do something.

There's a reason Hunter stopped his CT+ product.

I thought it was so as to clear the decks for t5. but that seems to be stalled if not deprecated already.

if you present hunter/marc et al with a ct+, they might look at it.

 

[Takei]

I see no reason why it shouldn't start out as a set of community houserules and develop into a fully fledged product later. As flykiller says, CT+ got shelved because of T5.

 

[mike wightman]

Even if it was just a pdf I bet they'd shift a few of them

 

[robject]

The point is, when you use the term house rule, you are supporting the Traveller market. When you use the term product, there are market, business, and legal implications -- none of which we want to get entangled in.

In other words, we are free to discuss whatever house rules we want. We just can't make a product unless the copyright owners hire us or sell a license.

Anyone want to buy a license from Marc Miller?

 

[mike wightman]

Not at the moment, but with T5 still being two years or more away could Marc not be persuaded to let Hunter give CT+ a try as a pdf only?

Or how about gathering all of thes house rules together and posting to the flibrary here - or even to the Moot articles

 

[zakrol]

But robject is spot on. This cannot be a challenge to the official products - CT+ as a set of popular house rules avoids this. Such things have been going on for many a year.

A major pain, for me anyway

, is that tomorrow I'm off up north to see family and won't get anywhere near a PC for a week. So I expect a harmonious set of house rules all agreed and written up when I get back!

 

[robject]

I don't want to try to persuade Marc to do anything. He already knows what he wants to do, in rpg terms, although he does listen to other rpg businessmen.

Now opinions, that's a different story. He hears opinions, but they're just that. He takes them or leaves them as he sees fit.

Just like we do.

 

[jappel]

I find the idea of what Hunter proposed, to wit, a self-contained, cleaned-up, updated version of CT, compatible with T20, very compelling.

I believe that is what motivates most of us: to create something that realizes that vision, because we all find it compelling.

My preference is to continue a collaborative effort to achieve that realization, though at the moment no clear path to bringing the final product to the Traveller community, and the larger RPG community beyond that, exists. That can be explored while development continues.

Robject has offered to contact Hunter, if I understand correctly. I suggest we allow him some time to do so, and that folks also recognize that Hunter is no doubt still dealing with the aftermath of the personal issue he described elsewhere on the forum.

Based on the outcome of that conversation, various options for continued progress include contacting MWM directly, shifting focus to the "TTB Modernata", seeking a limited license via Hunter or even a full license from MWM, continuing to pursue this as a fan-based compilation of tweaks, etc. Other options may be possible.

But it costs nothing but some time & sweat to continue as we are while those paths are pursued. Many (Sigg, Employee, Aramis, flykiller et. al) have already created functional systems based on the subtextual framework that everyone appears to agree on. This is the integration process, and while impressive progress has been made, there's still a way to go. Stress testing and play testing would have to come after that. We're looking at a couple of months effort in any case.

If someone doesn't prefer to paricipate with that level of uncertainty, no problem. Each person's time is one of their most valuable commodities, and they should feel free to invest or not invest it as they choose. Hopefully a sufficient critical mass will choose to continue to bring things to fruition, whatever the final venue.

My CR 0.02.

- John

 

[flykiller]

Anyone want to buy a license from Marc Miller?

could just up and give it to him, if he likes it.

 

[Berg]

I think we need a summary on each thread to know where we are at. Some are almost in agreeance
Mr Robject was most excellent at this... Mr Robject...

Tom

 

[Jame]

I think this all sounds good, but no-one has really addressed my real concern - rewriting the computers! How? HOW? HOW?!?

Oh, and here's a thought - yeah, do something like Book 2 ships, but allow all ship sizes to be done at the starting TL, even if you can't do as well with a 5k ton ship of TL9 as the same size ship of TL15. That may require the tonnages to be kajiggered, though...

 

[Berg]

Ships computers...

Start a new thread: CT+ Ships Computers

Good info here...

Revamp of ships' computers

Starship Programs: Load-Outs, New Programs

Tom

 

[mike wightman]

Computers have come up in this discussion somewhere...

 

[robject]

I've sent an email to Hunter, but I needed a refresher on the Fair Use Policy on FFE's website, so:

3) May I rewrite the game in my own words, scan parts of the book, or create any other derivative works.
No. Our reasoning is this:
If Far Future Enterprises does not establish standards for fair use, and does not police any use that is made, then Far Future Enterprises runs the risk of losing an enforceable ownership right. I can't use your car, even if you aren't using it. I need your permission. I can look at it, admire it, even write about it, but I can't take it or re-paint it without permission. Intellectual property is a special case, but the idea is much the same.
You can write about the Traveller universe, and put it on your web site... but you can't reproduce the rules (or re-writes of the rules, etc.) except for about a page (because we give permission to do that, provided you post the proper acknowledgment). Some publishers just say "You can't post anything." We are trying to have a kinder, gentler approach. "Far Future Enterprises wants to be a player friendly company. We understand that you love the game and want to see it foster. We believe in supporting you the best way we can. Right now, we encourage you to create your own original works and have them follow our policies, which are the most fair in the industry.
But you can't just go rewrite the books in your own words.

 

[Berg]

Permission in one form or another will need to be given. I personally would like them to produce it and I buy it

Tom

 

[zakrol]

That does seem pretty clear really. A one page reworking of the task system or some other aspect is fair game. Trying to put together a variant house rule system is pushing the boat too far.
On the other hand, if I were to summarise the house rules I use in my own game that would surely be ok.

We are going to have to be careful about bringing anything together until we know what the powers that be feel about it.

(Of course it doesn't say how big the page is or how small the writing can be! )

 

[mike wightman]

Could we put the task system, combat system, character generation changes (special duty number, revised skill list, etc.), computer rules together as an upgrade to CT and have it as a free pdf in the flibrary?

 

[Berg]

Not unless we got explicit permission I would think. I just hope the Powers that be look at this and say... Hmmm they sure saved me/us a bunch of work, lets make it.
I guess it depends on whether they believe it would hinder other products/lines.

Tom