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Curious games master

san*klass

SOC-12
Being a Traveller GamesMaster, I noticed the forum for Twilight 2000 and recalled seeing the game back in the day.

Intrigued by possibilities inherent, I wondered if anyone could please give me some info?

1) Is it actually a roleplaying game or just a small unit war game?

2) Linked in with the above, assuming it is an RPG, how do you write regular scenarios and keep them from just being a "storm the target and shoot it up" setting each time (no insult intended) ?

3) Also, is it written only from a US PC perspective, or are other nationalities supported? I am toying with a Russian perspective, hence the question.

Apologies for what are probably stupid questions, and hoping the forum members can enlighten me.
 
Being a Traveller GamesMaster, I noticed the forum for Twilight 2000 and recalled seeing the game back in the day.

Intrigued by possibilities inherent, I wondered if anyone could please give me some info?

1) Is it actually a roleplaying game or just a small unit war game?

2) Linked in with the above, assuming it is an RPG, how do you write regular scenarios and keep them from just being a "storm the target and shoot it up" setting each time (no insult intended) ?

3) Also, is it written only from a US PC perspective, or are other nationalities supported? I am toying with a Russian perspective, hence the question.

Apologies for what are probably stupid questions, and hoping the forum members can enlighten me.
T2K was a RPG in a post nuclear war world.

Its main focus was military, while you could also play reconstruction and "empire building" in trying to stabilize the zone you (and usually your unit) are in.

It supported most NATO and WP countries (and some other ones).

As an aside, it's setting was then expanded, 3 centires latter, to become Traveller 2300/2300AD setting.
 
1) Is it actually a roleplaying game or just a small unit war game?

It's an RPG where the typical party is the remnants of a small military unit.

2) Linked in with the above, assuming it is an RPG, how do you write regular scenarios and keep them from just being a "storm the target and shoot it up" setting each time (no insult intended) ?

A common theme was just "getting home". The unit is basically behind enemy lines when the war "stops". Not so much peace breaks out, rather the armies are just exhausted and give up.

So, you're a guy from Nebraska with your squad stuck in Poland. "What are our orders for today Sergeant?" "We don't have any. There aren't any more orders. We're on our own."

3) Also, is it written only from a US PC perspective, or are other nationalities supported? I am toying with a Russian perspective, hence the question.

It works from any nationality. There's certainly a NATO bend to it, but there's equipment guides and what not for Soviet forces.

Also, there were at least 3 versions. The original version, version 2.x which aligned the mechanics with TNE and Dark Conspiracy (when GDW adopted a "house" system), then there have been recent releases where they updated the timeline, since here we are in 2016 and you may have noticed we didn't have a nuclear war 20 years ago.

Then there were other supplements to let you reorient the campaign if post WWIII is not your thing, including MERC: 2000, which is a modern mercenary source book, Twilight Nightmares, which is kind of an X-Files-y horror source book, and Cadillacs and Dinosaurs which plops you in to the world of Cadillacs and Dinosaurs.

And, as McPerth mentioned, the T2K timeline is foundational to the history of T2300, but the systems were quite different.
 
Then there were other supplements to let you reorient the campaign if post WWIII is not your thing, including MERC: 2000, which is a modern mercenary source book, Twilight Nightmares, which is kind of an X-Files-y horror source book, and Cadillacs and Dinosaurs which plops you in to the world of Cadillacs and Dinosaurs.

Wouldn't Dark Conspiracy also fall into this category?
 
Wouldn't Dark Conspiracy also fall into this category?

Yep.

Note also:Task systems
T2K 1E: d%, 3 difficulty levels, wholly different game engine
T2300/2300AD: 1d10+skill vs TN, 5 difficulty levels. Incompatible with other games
The GDW House System
T2K 2.0, C&D, DC 1.0: d10 vs Skill*diff, 3 difficulty levels. Note C&D has very different CGen.
T2K 2.2, DC 1.2: d20 vs (stat+skill)*diff, 5 difficulty levels
TNE: d20 vs (stat+skill)*diff, 5 difficulty levels, significant CGen differences, attribute range differs.
and the Post-GDW third party stuff
DC2.0 was essentially the same as 1.2, but was released by a 3rd party company.
T2013: (skill)d20 ea vs att; count successes. Incompatible with prior editions.

Note also: GDW did NOT CHANGE TRADE DRESS when they updated the T2K and DC core rulebooks to the .2 versions. The CD's contain only the .2 versions.
 
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Wouldn't Dark Conspiracy also fall into this category?

I don't really know Dark Conspiracy. Looking at the wiki, it's doesn't seem like the game world is a derivative of the aftermath of T2K. Plus there's some extra-dimensional horror element as well, which is certainly not in T2K.

Mechanically, they'll certainly be similar.
 
Gents many thanks for the info (and putting up with stupid questions).

I am looking for a "war is hell" WW3 ruleset today from a Soviet perspective in the early 80's. I was tempted by the AFMBE ruleset ( but without zombies or supernatural obviously) just because it is quite gritty and has a good useable set of vehicle rules. But something just didn't gel.

Then I saw This T2K forum and got thinking.

I guess that I am going from a "opposing soldiers are Orcs" and "tanks are dragons" perspective, and wondering if WW3 could be played out from the continuing missions of a Soviet Motor Rifle Platoon?

Players would be the Platoon Leader, his Assistant, Squad Leaders and any Specialists (RPG Gunner, Designated Marksman etc).

I am just stalling over how you keep such a campaign fresh and not overly same-eyy ??
 
I don't really know Dark Conspiracy. Looking at the wiki, it's doesn't seem like the game world is a derivative of the aftermath of T2K. Plus there's some extra-dimensional horror element as well, which is certainly not in T2K.

Mechanically, they'll certainly be similar.

Well, you said if post WWIII is not really your thing. I've never played Dark Conspiracy, but the articles in Challenge seemed quite interchangeable with T2K.2

Gents many thanks for the info (and putting up with stupid questions).

I am looking for a "war is hell" WW3 ruleset today from a Soviet perspective in the early 80's. I was tempted by the AFMBE ruleset ( but without zombies or supernatural obviously) just because it is quite gritty and has a good useable set of vehicle rules. But something just didn't gel.

Then I saw This T2K forum and got thinking.

I guess that I am going from a "opposing soldiers are Orcs" and "tanks are dragons" perspective, and wondering if WW3 could be played out from the continuing missions of a Soviet Motor Rifle Platoon?

Players would be the Platoon Leader, his Assistant, Squad Leaders and any Specialists (RPG Gunner, Designated Marksman etc).

I am just stalling over how you keep such a campaign fresh and not overly same-eyy ??

Then T2K may serve you well. There are many equipment descriptions for WP block too, and in the .2 versión there were rules for creating characters from most armies involved (Russian included) in the core book.
 
Gents many thanks for the info (and putting up with stupid questions).

I am looking for a "war is hell" WW3 ruleset today from a Soviet perspective in the early 80's. I was tempted by the AFMBE ruleset ( but without zombies or supernatural obviously) just because it is quite gritty and has a good useable set of vehicle rules. But something just didn't gel.

Then I saw This T2K forum and got thinking.

I guess that I am going from a "opposing soldiers are Orcs" and "tanks are dragons" perspective, and wondering if WW3 could be played out from the continuing missions of a Soviet Motor Rifle Platoon?

Players would be the Platoon Leader, his Assistant, Squad Leaders and any Specialists (RPG Gunner, Designated Marksman etc).

I am just stalling over how you keep such a campaign fresh and not overly same-eyy ??

T2K2.2 (the T2K2 CD is 2.2) will give you what you need. NPC's are cheap and easy, and go down quick compared to PC's or full-stat NPCs. Soviet Character mods are in the core rules.

It can be played long term... keeping it fresh probably involves an evolution of the campaign.
  • Phase 1: Американцы туда, где?
    The fight against the US army in the final weeks before and first month after the "Good luck, you're on your own!" message.
  • Phase 2: Американцы не приветствуют!
    The US Army's remnants start to have some units decide to become local warlords. Kick them out.
  • Phase 3: Привет! где наши поставки?
    Central Command forgets you exist.
  • Phase 4 Мы едем еще дома?
    Since CenCom forgot you exist, your turn to become the local warlord.

That help?
 
Something to be aware of is that combat is rather dangerous. It's actually tweaked so that PCs probably won't die from being shot, but the healing rules are rather realistic, and once shot, it will take days to recover.

If someone is shot multiple times, or seriously wounded, it will take LOTS of days to recover.

Thus, IMO, playing with a whole platoon should be a good thing, players may want/need backup PCs to play while their originals are in the hospital, or are walking wounded.

A side effect of that should be that players should feel encouraged to keep each session from becoming "storm the target and shoot it up", as you say. There needs to be negotiation, planning, and/or stealth involved.
 
Soviet perspective is doable. FFE sells the T2k CD. So, you can get the whole think. I'd go 1.0 or 2.2.

Once the US 5th Division is dismantled by the Soviet Army, players could come from anywhere. US, Polish or even Soviet troops could band together to protect towns...etc. The East Europe Modules in Warsaw, Krakow and Lvov support players from any background really.
 
2) Linked in with the above, assuming it is an RPG, how do you write regular scenarios and keep them from just being a "storm the target and shoot it up" setting each time (no insult intended) ?

Because the TW:2k's basic premise is that the game begins when that stage finally comes to an end for your players. Civilization has disintegrated, the old order (the world as we knew it) has been mostly irrelevant and is become more irrelevant all the time. The players were part of a loyal, functioning (if at a much lower level) military unit. But even they were aware that being part of the "United States military" was becoming increasingly irrelevant. The other side is experiencing the same problems.

As the war basically ends in the timeline (at least for the players), they suddenly look around and realize that Europe has changed. There's city-states arising out of the old nation states. Things are looking decidedly medieval in many ways (as a TNE player, I'm sure you'll have a decided feeling of "hey waitaminnit when have I seen this before?" when reading through the 2k setting materials - TNE is basically the lovechild of TW2K and Third Imperium Traveller). What the players do at that point is up to them. Some seek to go home, some seek to stay in Europe and make a new life for themselves (of some sort), I had one group of players who literally wanted to play Marco Polo! One of them as a college history professor before he voluntarily joined the US Army (better than being drafted he figured) and became a staff officer. Because of his background he realized that in the future, a "primary source" memoir of the world right after the end of the Twilight War would be invaluable to future generations. The other guys in their small unit agreed and instead of heading west out of Poland, they headed east with the intention of getting to Alaska and getting home that way.

3) Also, is it written only from a US PC perspective, or are other nationalities supported? I am toying with a Russian perspective, hence the question.

In the original version (which I believe is the best), there's a very heavy bias in the setting lore and details towards a US perspective. Eastern bloc types seem to disproportionately represented in the "pitiless warlords", "souless marauders", and "brutal mercenaries" categories (it's not all eastern bloc types, but it feels like 80% of them are).

The basic chargen and so on pretty much assumes a US military bent; there's some rules to cover other NATO nations and eastern bloc nations, but again, there's more detail for the US. There's greater detail for the other nations in later editions but the later editions never seemed to last as long and didn't have the history of player written articles in Challenge and so on which made TW2K such a joy to play; having an actual Abrams tanker describe the kind of equipment and the reality of the Abrams tank ('yeah the .50 caliber can be fired from the inside of the tank, as described, but it's actually fired with this chain thing and it's not accurate at all') was a great help.

You can play as other nations, but there's decidedly less detail about them. One of the most fun things in TW2K was to play with actual military members - they're able to really give the game a lot of "feel" that the rules, equipment lists, and so on lack - like filling in the details about the difference between the TO&E on paper and what would really exist in a military, small details like what actually consists of a infantryman's field load, or what's really in a personal medkit (depressingly little), and so on.
 
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Exactly.

My friends and I had fun with T2K in 1986-88.
There were lots of house-rules/equipment changes we made to better reflect reality (especially those dealing with aircraft).

One thing we did do was to tone back the "evil Soviet/WP soldiers" aspect - as serving military personnel we knew that most of our "enemies" were just like us - patriotic people serving our nation to protect our homes, not as an excuse to hurt others.

Jon A. USMC (3rd Marine Air Wing) 1981-1989 (I spent 8 months of 1987 at sea aboard the carrier USS Ranger CV-61, and we did play there).
 
Many thanks to everyone who has kindly replied to my enquiry. T2K certainly sounds like a great game, but probably not what I am looking for at the moment.

But that is a result of my campaign concept not really being workable!

Once again, many thanks and I'll return to the Traveller forums.
 
What's your concept?

Mike, the word concept, to be honest, is probably a bit too grand.

It is more a feeling that I have been trying to brainstorm, that arose from reading about Soviet Motor Rifle Platoons, their equipment, gear and structure.

I was considering a alternative history WW3 campaign in the 80's, centered around one SMRP. Initially Players would play Platoon Leader, Assistant, Squad leaders or maybe specialists (Assigned Marksman, RP Grenadier, SAW Gunner etc). Very much a "War is Hell" type attrition game as they gain strategic objectives but slowly lose manpower. Assuming such a fast assault that reinforcements are unreliable.

My only worry is how to keep it an RPG and not slip into a small unit war game. And, related to that, how to keep each game fresh and not overly similar.

Seeing This Forum on COTI got me wondering if it might help. But, although it sounds like a great game, I don't think it's gonna help me.

And so I think my inspiration is too flawed to work this time.

But any suggestions gratefully received.
 
Gents many thanks for the info (and putting up with stupid questions).

First, there are no stupid questions. Questions not asked for the fear of seeming stupid are one of the World's great tragedies.

Second, have you ever seen or considered The Morrow Project, which is similar to Twilight 2000, but somewhat less lethal?

Edit Note: I should note that I have Twilight 2000 and The Morrow Project. I did like the Twilight 2000 module of the replica USS Constitution, but I did change it to give it actual guns, made by South Bend Replicas. I figured if someone was going to spend the money to make a replica USS Constitution frigate, they would spring for real guns. Restocking the cannon balls was a bit of a problem, black powder not so much.
 
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Mike, the word concept, to be honest, is probably a bit too grand.

It is more a feeling that I have been trying to brainstorm, that arose from reading about Soviet Motor Rifle Platoons, their equipment, gear and structure.

I was considering a alternative history WW3 campaign in the 80's, centered around one SMRP. Initially Players would play Platoon Leader, Assistant, Squad leaders or maybe specialists (Assigned Marksman, RP Grenadier, SAW Gunner etc). Very much a "War is Hell" type attrition game as they gain strategic objectives but slowly lose manpower. Assuming such a fast assault that reinforcements are unreliable.

My only worry is how to keep it an RPG and not slip into a small unit war game. And, related to that, how to keep each game fresh and not overly similar.

Seeing This Forum on COTI got me wondering if it might help. But, although it sounds like a great game, I don't think it's gonna help me.

And so I think my inspiration is too flawed to work this time.

But any suggestions gratefully received.

Sounds like you want the players & characters to spend at least as much time role-playing between battles as they do in the fights? T2k should be able to do that as well as any other, it's going to be mostly on the players to stick to your theme. It can do platoon-level firefights very well, its rules are pretty thin on inter-character relationships, but then again, so are Traveller and many other Old School RPGs.

I'll be honest, nearly all of my games have (intentionally or not) evolved into focusing on the shooting-- I think it's a result of my players and their expectations from my games and from myself as a GM. I think T2k should do very well at what I read from your concept.

Something you may want to try is from "Night Witches", which divides its games into "Day" and "Night" turns: the Day turns are spent by the PCs in things like relations among each other and NPCs, scavenging supplies, maintaining their airplanes, and gathering information or other things they can use. The Night turns are flying the missions, dealing with the enemy, and so on. A division of effort like that may be more of what you want?
 
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