Defining other roles for Traveller Starships

[DonM]

Taking off from a thread started by Vladika that really got off track, I'd like to continue the original topic.

I saw that the original thread defined five possible "in-game" roles that need some type of mission-fulfillment definitions applied...

Scout
Picket
Courier
Escort
Supply

Courier might be part of supply, if you see communications as one of several resources needed by a fleet (fuel, life support, missiles, cargo).

Perhaps a good start might be looking at the existing definitions for the various Ship Type Codes in HG2?

NOTE: Please don't start with anything with Real World Fleets or such. Let's start with HG2 and other Traveller material, and only resort to non-Traveller references if desperately required.

 

[Timerover51]

Taking off from a thread started by Vladika that really got off track, I'd like to continue the original topic.

I saw that the original thread defined five possible "in-game" roles that need some type of mission-fulfillment definitions applied...

Scout
Picket
Courier
Escort
Supply

Courier might be part of supply, if you see communications as one of several resources needed by a fleet (fuel, life support, missiles, cargo).

Perhaps a good start might be looking at the existing definitions for the various Ship Type Codes in HG2?

NOTE: Please don't start with anything with Real World Fleets or such. Let's start with HG2 and other Traveller material, and only resort to non-Traveller references if desperately required.

Just to make sure I am looking at the correct version of High Guard, as I have two different ones, one with a copyright date of 1979, and one with a copyright date of 1980, which also states that it is the 2nd edition, you are referring to the one with the 1980 copyright date.

I would classify Courier as separate from supply, as supply is something that you need on a continuous basis, while communication is on an as-needed basis. While supply flows from the rear forward, communication flows both ways. When I use the term "supply" I mean the material carried by supply ships, not the ships themselves.

Lastly, is there any limit as to the size of the ships built, or are ships that are included in Supplement 9, Fighting Ships, more of the norm? There are several ships in that Supplement that exceed 100,000 displacement tons, with the largest being 500,000 tons.

 

[GrayPennell]

Hospital Ship
Scientific Ship
Tender
Troop Transport
Barge
Tug
Fast attack

 

[Vladika]

Taking off from a thread started by Vladika that really got off track, I'd like to continue the original topic.

Thank you for reviving interest.

May I suggest that Picket is essentially early warning? That could be tactical should sensor rulers be in place. (Please, can we go with rules as written?)

Also, in a strategic sense, ships stationed well ahead of the fleet and communicating position of enemy movement. Intel out of date or not, does tend to "paint a picture".

Also:

Rescue
Recovery
Refuel
Repair

 

[flykiller]

Taking off from a thread started by Vladika that really got off track

well ... people pursue their interests. apparently fleet auxilliaries isn't one of them.

 

[McPerth]

May I suggest that Picket is essentially early warning? That could be tactical should sensor rulers be in place. (Please, can we go with rules as written?)

I'd guess picket ships would also include scouts. With no way to know in real time what is happening to an "adjacent" system, pickets in those just to warn about enemy forces advancing should be quite useful.

Rescue

Are you talking for the crewmembers that have abandoned their ships in the aftermath of a battle (in vacc suits or rescue bubles)?

I guess those rescues could be left to the ship's crafts (either ship's boats, pinnaces, refueling landers, etc...), as I guess they would be quite numerous and most of them are quite fast and agile (something quite good for this role).

well ... people pursue their interests. apparently fleet auxilliaries isn't one of them.

Not so sure about that, even after that ill-fated thread...

 

[shield]

What about personnel transports. All those replacement crews needed following battles, the normal movement of personnel between postings - especially if they are going to a specialist school which may be across the sector and the high priority movement of admirals and other specialists.

 

[flykiller]

well ... people pursue their interests. apparently fleet auxilliaries isn't one of them.

Not so sure about that, even after that ill-fated thread...

if people are interested in <x> then they talk about <x>.

What about personnel transports. All those replacement crews needed following battles, the normal movement of personnel between postings.

a small transport dedicated to lowberths seems both trivial and uneconomical - it would be much more efficient simply to include excess lowberths in every ship.

 

[Vladika]

I'd guess picket ships would also include scouts. With no way to know in real time what is happening to an "adjacent" system, pickets in those just to warn about enemy forces advancing should be quite useful.

Even with slow communication, though the J6 fleet couriers are plenty fast, ANY information on your enemy is essential. After action reports on his fleet composition, condition, axis of advance etc. (As well as information on your own status to higher command.)

Is he able to push his attack or is he going to need protracted time to effect repairs or withdraw? Must/has he split his fleet, using battle worthy ships to advance while cripples retreat? Can those now slower cripples be caught? What CAN his remaining forces actually do at this juncture?

[Rescue]
Are you talking for the crewmembers that have abandoned their ships in the aftermath of a battle (in vacc suits or rescue bubles)?

I guess those rescues could be left to the ship's crafts (either ship's boats, pinnaces, refueling landers, etc...), as I guess they would be quite numerous and most of them are quite fast and agile (something quite good for this role).

This is one possibility. Also, small ships with moderate hospital facilities for the wounded, damage control teams used to rescue trapped crew, etc.

Not so sure about that, even after that ill-fated thread...

Hopefully this thread will not derail and those of us so inclined can be left to pursue our interests.

 

[McPerth]

if people are interested in <x> then they talk about <x>.

Sure, but when bullets fly most uninvolved people duck their heads.

What about personnel transports. All those replacement crews needed following battles, the normal movement of personnel between postings - especially if they are going to a specialist school which may be across the sector and the high priority movement of admirals and other specialists.

a small transport dedicated to lowberths seems both trivial and uneconomical - it would be much more efficient simply to include excess lowberths in every ship.

But some way to transport the replacements to the front lines and to retreated the too wounded to recover in time, prisoniers, and so on must exist. I guess a personnel carrier (even if just a courrier with more passenger capacity or a militarized lineer) is not out of league, used also as liaison ship.

 

[McPerth]

Even with slow communication, though the J6 fleet couriers are plenty fast, ANY information on your enemy is essential. After action reports on his fleet composition, condition, axis of advance etc. (As well as information on your own status to higher command.)

Is he able to push his attack or is he going to need protracted time to effect repairs or withdraw? Must/has he split his fleet, using battle worthy ships to advance while cripples retreat? Can those now slower cripples be caught? What CAN his remaining forces actually do at this juncture?

That's exactly what I was refereing to. In fact, doesn't matter how many parsecs away it is, what is important is how many jumps away they are, bot, for scouting and for the real danger they represent.

This is one possibility. Also, small ships with moderate hospital facilities for the wounded, damage control teams used to rescue trapped crew, etc.

I guess that can be a reason for the Gazelle's gig to have emergency low berths...

In any case, my guess is that most people whose vacc suit integrity is enough to keep him alive is not so heavily wounded to require immediate medical assistence. Not so sure about rescue balls, but I guess more the same will apply in most cases.

 

[Vladika]

What about personnel transports. All those replacement crews needed following battles, the normal movement of personnel between postings - especially if they are going to a specialist school which may be across the sector and the high priority movement of admirals and other specialists.

I see a real need for "extra" crew carried on transports.

1) I don't like Popsicle crews. (Personal Bias, though in the game)
2) Crews on a damaged ship may be to small to man or make needed repairs
3) Any "Prizes" taken will need crews
4) Normal transfers should be taken into account
5) You can lose more crew than you can replace from the "freezer"

Under the rules frozen crews (from OTHER ships) can only be transferred AFTER the battle. Boarding actions against hostile ships take place DURING the battle. I maintain that if you can move between ships to board and fight a hostile crew you an surely move your own living breathing awake and friendly personnel between your own ships. In keeping with that rule, though I neither understand it, nor agree with it, only non-lowberth transfers are permitted. Therefore transports of the AP variety.

 

[flykiller]

But some way to transport the replacements

again, it would be more efficient for existing ships to carry extra lowberths. as for admin transfers that would be an admin function not a fleet auxilliary function.

to the front lines and to retreated the too wounded to recover in time

there is no reason to detach such transportation needs from the medical ships themselves. my hospital module has 300 lowberths dedicated to inpatients and another 340 lowberths available to staff but of course usable for other purposes.

prisoniers

now that is a valid consideration. prison scow .... given zhodani psionics that might even warrant a fleet-attached specialty ship ....

 

[flykiller]

I don't like Popsicle crews.

imtu most crewman have a lowberth (and I ignore lowberth survivability rules). it makes long transits easier on low-activity crew. "wake me when we get there." and it makes transporting hundreds of marines much easier.

 

[Vladika]

again, it would be more efficient for existing ships to carry extra lowberths. as for admin transfers that would be an admin function not a fleet auxilliary function.

I really do have some ship designs to tightly worked up to have lowberths. In those cases I find keeping warship tonnage down due to high per tonne cost is worth the extra, lower cost Auxiliary. (Smaller PP, no Armor, no screens, minimal weaponry ect. These STAY in the reserve line.)

there is no reason to detach such transportation needs from the medical ships themselves. my hospital module has 300 lowberths dedicated to inpatients and another 340 lowberths available to staff but of course usable for other purposes.

There are/were more than one type of Hospital ship. A general fleet Hospital ship (AH) will treat, and return to duty, many crew members without the need to transfer then to the rear areas and back. Another type, the evacuation Hospital (AHP) ship will remove the more seriously wounded to the rear and return with replacements and hospital supplies.

There was even an Evacuation Transports (APH) casualty evacuation transport ship [armed] designed to evacuate casualties suffered by an amphibious assault force. When not evacuating casualties, the ship would be usable as a troop transport. Because of their dual use, these ships were not entitled to the immunity enjoyed by regular hospital ships under international law. Thus, they were armed and did not carry hospital ship markings. (Historic Example)

now that is a valid consideration. prison scow .... given zhodani psionics that might even warrant a fleet-attached specialty ship ....

Now THAT could be a real party... Trying to keep Zho teleports in cages.

 

[McPerth]

again, it would be more efficient for existing ships to carry extra lowberths. as for admin transfers that would be an admin function not a fleet auxilliary function.

there is no reason to detach such transportation needs from the medical ships themselves. my hospital module has 300 lowberths dedicated to inpatients and another 340 lowberths available to staff but of course usable for other purposes.

Your hospital ship module is quite nice, but it could not be enough, depending on the casualties list.

This was discussed when Mithras presented his hospital ship, and may be a matter of doctrine, but y take is that this personnel, if kept in low berths, are totally out of the war, while, if taken to reargurd hospitals, they may eventually recover and, depnding on the length of the war, even rejoin the ranks latter.

IMHO, by keeping them in hospital ships on the first line will risk both, the wounded and clogging your hospital ships, while taking the hospital ships to the rearguard to discharge them will deny you those same hospital ships in the frontlines.

now that is a valid consideration. prison scow .... given zhodani psionics that might even warrant a fleet-attached specialty ship ...

Well, it might depend on the war rules in practice, but the prisoners are among the first ones (just after the critically wounded) I'd put on cold sleep, This will also prevent the Zhodani to use their psionic skills to flee (and even to take the ship).

For easynes of reference for most people, I give small quotes as links to both, your hospital module and to Mithras hospital ship discussion (and the discussion it followed):

Medical Support Ship

the 4900dton hospital module

 

[Vladika]

Well, it might depend on the war rules in practice, but the prisoners are among the first ones (just after the critically wounded) I'd put on cold sleep, This will also prevent the Zhodani to use their psionic skills to flee (and even to take the ship).

Hmm Use Emergency Low Berths for prisoners... Twice the capacity per tonne.

 

[rancke]

Now THAT could be a real party... Trying to keep Zho teleports in cages.

IMTU psionic shielding prevents teleportation as well as telepathy.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Hmm Use Emergency Low Berths for prisoners... Twice the capacity per tonne.

Any available Low Berths, in fact.

 

[Vladika]

Any available Low Berths, in fact.

But 4 per tonne in ELBs where 1 tonne of LBs just holds two. (CT/HG2 rules. I think some later addition changed the sizes around?)