Do significant numbers of Solomani or Vilani reside within the Zhodani Consulate?

[maksimsmelchak]

*** Do significant numbers of Solomani or Vilani reside within the Zhodani Consulate? ***

I hear some talk about Zhodani residing within the third Imperium, but so little has been written about the Zhodani, let alone their Consulate, that I can't recall any really concrete canon mention of significant populations of Solomani or Vilani living within Zho space... I do not recall anything other than snippets... War refugees in the Spinward Marches... Somewhat neutral areas... Hmmm...

Marc Miller's new novel "Agent" mentions Zhos in Imperial service, but I do not recall the obverse notion that former Imperials now serve the Consulate, but it seems plausible. I re-read the Zhodani portions several times... Good stuff even if I wasn't looking for something in particular...

*** What sayeth you? ***

Positive vibes and early thanks to anyone who responds!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[flykiller]

but so little has been written about the Zhodani, let alone their Consulate

that's because a psionic-capable polity is outside of all human experience.

I can't recall any really concrete canon mention of significant populations of Solomani or Vilani living within Zho space...

riverland was populated (A) by imperials and captured by the zhodani.

I do not recall the obverse notion that former Imperials now serve the Consulate

there are no "former imperials". once they're psychically contaminated they're zho.

 

[GypsyComet]

If you look at the Frontier Wars maps, originally seen in Spinward Marches Campaign, the eve of the first War shows Imperial tendrils heading spin-coreward into Ziafrplians and Foreven. Whether than is exploration or colonization is open to interpretation, but probably includes both.

We also know that the Zhodani were exploring and trading at least as far as Regina prior to the Consular government stopping expansion, and Zhodani "patrols" get down into Trojan Reach even in 1100 (assuming you agree that Leviathan is an adventure of the 1100s and not, say, the 300s or 800s).

There are Zhodani showing up as apparent refugees in Imperial space documented (Cirque) as early as the Fifth Frontier War.

What material we have does not suggest that genetic purity is a concern of the Zhodani, and we already know what horndogs the Vilani and Solomani can be.

Ex-Pats are going to occur in every era. That's just Human nature.

---

Are there genetic Solomani and Vilani in the Consulate? I would bet on it.
Are there first generation Imperial Ex-Pats in Consulate service? Almost certainly in any year you care to name after about Imperial 500.

Are there genetic Zhodani in Imperial space? Certainly by the 1100s and probably been in the Marches all along.
Are there first generation Zhodani Ex-Pats in Imperial Service? We know of (or suspect} one at least with a significant role in Canon. Maybe two, though one may be a descendent recruited as a sleeper. Both are in the context of the Fifth Frontier War and the Rebellion. There are probably others below the focus of the narrative.

Are these populations worth exploring in detail? Probably not unless you have an adventure to write. Note the known populations as inspiration for someone else's adventures.

 

[mike wightman]

Marc's novel ends before the psionic repressions...

here's hoping that a sequel will fill in some gaps in the failed psychohistory mass brainwashing experiment that the Imperium forced on its 'citizens'.

 

[MThompson016]

GT materials have a population of Psionic Refugees from the Imperium in the Consulate, they've been there a few centuries, and are mostly absorbed. Some maybe intelligence officers for the Consulate once trained.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

GT materials have a population of Psionic Refugees from the Imperium in the Consulate, they've been there a few centuries, and are mostly absorbed. Some maybe intelligence officers for the Consulate once trained.

Hi MThompson016,

*** Would you be able to cite specific books or pages, please? ***

Thank you for your insight. Very appreciated.

Shalom,
M.

 

[MThompson016]

Yeah, the GT Psionics Institutes PDF, pages 5, 12-13.

The part about being intelligence officers is just speculation, but considering that Zhos are taller than Imperials, descendants of Imperial Psi refugees makes sense as undercover case officers for them. Although an ethnic Zho, because he sticks out, is good as an official cover operative.

 

[Jame]

I would expect that some Imperial-descended Zhodani exist, just as Zhodani-descended Imperials exist. Others have noted good reasons why.

 

[McPerth]

Genetically Vilani and Solomani, maybe (probably more Vilani tan Solomani, due to distances and history), as they colonized some worlds latter taken by the Zhodani, but, being the Zhos as they are, I guess they have all either been absorved on Zhodani culture or left.

And, as I see the Zhodani (not sure about what canon assumes on this), they are more a cultural group than a genetic one, considering all sentient races incorporated to his culture as Zhodani (at least all humans, but see below).

We may not forget the Qiknavrats were chippers, but probably seen as much Zhodani as themselves by the Zhodani developing society (on which developement and shaping they were quite important, if not outright decisive). Probably, this would have shaped a way of seeing themselves more as a culture than as a race.

If so, the answer to your question woudl be no, as, having been absorved to the Zhodani culture and views, they could not be considered Vilani or Solomani anymore, regardless their genetic basis, at least, on Zhodani (and so their own) eyes.

 

[mike wightman]

I would not quote the GT Psionic Institutes book as authoritative or canonical - it is an awful book that should not be considered part of even the Lorenverse.

 

[mike wightman]

The original humans transplanted to Zhodane evolved into two distinct races, much as Cro-Magnon is different to Neanderthal. The Zhodani are the result of the hybridisation of these two.

By - 250,000, a primitive human which the Zhodani
call Zhdatl (Homo Zhdatl; Learning Man) had established himself
in the northern mid-latitudes of Dleqiats. Shortly thereafter, a
rival race of primitive man called Vlastebr (Homo Vlastebr;
Superior Man) emerged in the southern mid-latitudes of the same
continent.

The mixing of the races created (over the next 40,000
years) Zhdotlas (Homo Zhdotlas; Supreme Man). Zhdotlas spent
a long time in a period of very slow evolution. The prevalent
theory is that nearly 120,000 years was spent evolving basic
abilities to communicate vocally, establishing social customs
which favored survival and later ascendance.

 

[MThompson016]

I would not quote the GT Psionic Institutes book as authoritative or canonical - it is an awful book that should not be considered part of even the Lorenverse.

I agree, but those items make sense in some ways.

If, as generally stated, the Zhodani consider Psionics as THE greatest achievement of an intelligent mind, than, what else should they do to their fellow psis, but offer them aid, support, support, and a home?

 

[Jame]

Genetically Vilani and Solomani, maybe (probably more Vilani tan Solomani, due to distances and history), as they colonized some worlds latter taken by the Zhodani, but, being the Zhos as they are, I guess they have all either been absorved on Zhodani culture or left.If so, the answer to your question woudl be no, as, having been absorved to the Zhodani culture and views, they could not be considered Vilani or Solomani anymore, regardless their genetic basis, at least, on Zhodani (and so their own) eyes.

I would posit that Solomani/Vilani humans would be able to interbreed with Zhodani humans, at least to the extent that modern Terran humans are believed to have interbred (perhaps on a limited basis) with Neandertals ages ago.

That aside, yes, regardless of genetics the former Imperial humans that assimilated would be Zhodani culturally.

 

[GypsyComet]

Genetically Vilani and Solomani, maybe (probably more Vilani tan Solomani, due to distances and history), as they colonized some worlds latter taken by the Zhodani, but, being the Zhos as they are, I guess they have all either been absorved on Zhodani culture or left.

And, as I see the Zhodani (not sure about what canon assumes on this), they are more a cultural group than a genetic one, considering all sentient races incorporated to his culture as Zhodani (at least all humans, but see below).

While the Vilani are known to have committed genetic imperialism in a large but unspecified number of cases, we know of only one such case with the Zhodani: the Vlazhdumecta. They didn't do a very good job of the genetic side, leaving many Vlazhdumecta worlds beyond their borders in two sectors, but they did erase the Vlazhdumecta homeworld from memory.

The Zhodani history with the Addaxur is also suggestive of some things, but I'm not sure it is as culturally Darwinian as you suggest. The Addaxur are "compatible" with the Zhodani cultural model, but that doesn't mean they are full subscribers.

We may not forget the Qiknavrats were chippers, but probably seen as much Zhodani as themselves by the Zhodani developing society (on which developement and shaping they were quite important, if not outright decisive). Probably, this would have shaped a way of seeing themselves more as a culture than as a race.

The Qiknavrats maintained their own empire, and were possibly the opposite of what you suggest. They may well have been the model on which Zhodani psionic culture was built. Spiritual ancestors conveniently wiped out by a plague...

...having been absorved to the Zhodani culture and views, they could not be considered Vilani or Solomani anymore, regardless their genetic basis, at least, on Zhodani (and so their own) eyes.

Here I'll agree, to a point. A generation or two after immigration (or occupation, as the case may be), they will be "Zhodani" assuming the culturalization was successful. For all the uber-efficient psionic masterminds some paint them as, the Zhodani are not perfect at making and maintaining their model. There are too many "Unabsorbed" worlds within the Consulate.

 

[Whipsnade]

Significant? In a Consulate-wide population numbers in trillions?

Hell no.

On certain worlds in the Marches, Foreven, Ziafrplians, and Gvurrdon sectors originally settled by refugees and colonists from all three Imperiums and subsequently seized by the Consulate before, during, and after the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Frontier Wars?

Hell, yes.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Many Vilani disappeared after the Vargr overran them... Expanding the Extents...

*** Is it possible that some of these "lost" humans could have joined the Zhodani? What sayeth you? ***

Essentially, that seems to be one of the subplots of the many rimward states "south" of the Zhodani Consulate.

Positive vibes to all!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Whipsnade]

Essentially, that seems to be one of the subplots of the many rimward states "south" of the Zhodani Consulate.

Do NOT write up these suspicions as part of the Wiki.

The Wiki is already drowning in fanon. It doesn't need another load dropped on it.

If you want to truly help out the Traveller Wiki, start removing all fanon from it and stop spamming it with more "content".

Star Trek's Memory Alpha and Memory Beta could be a guide for us here.

Memory Alpha limits itself to only what can be found on TV episodes, movies, and their scripts; i.e. "true" canon. Memory Beta then handles all the novels, games, RPGs, fanzines, blogs, and whatnot.

 

[mike wightman]

I find the wiki worse than useless - I just refer to my own library of Traveller resources - for discussions about the rules or setting as written.

Ok worse than useless is a bit harsh - incredibly frustrating would be better. Often fanon is mixed in with canon is such a way that if you have no other way to check and you take it on face value you get incorrect 'facts' about the setting.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the fanon, and quite happily borrow the bits I like. The problem comes when people think the fanon is canon and quote it as OTU fact.

I will echo Mr. Whipsnade here.

Having a wiki that contains canon is useful to authors of future products. Fanon isn't.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

According to The Spinward Marches Campaign all the Zho territory in the Spinward Marches is conquered from the Imperium, so probably settled by Impies?

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Do NOT write up these suspicions as part of the Wiki.

The Wiki is already drowning in fanon. It doesn't need another load dropped on it.

They have not been written up that way.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.